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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr
      #150854 - 16/01/10 11:58 PM

For a start: This is my working double rifle with a recent victim. It is a pre-1887 Birmingham made and proofed Jones ul action in .500/.450#1 BPE retailed and signed by A.Robertson&Son in Wick. Wick is a town in Scotland, as far north as you can go without wet feet. http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af303/kuduae/Dob1.jpg
It is a simple, unengraved grade with doll's head, nonrebounding backlocks, stalking safes and steel barrels. Many years ago I bought it as a "wall hanger" at a reasonable price, well below a Baikal/Rem. or Pedersoli. Muzzles were completely rusted. Tightened up the action, shortened the barrels to 23" and regulated them to shoot a "nitro for black" load of 70gr N140, foam filler and 350gr Hornady for 1900fps. As you see, it shoots well within "minute of roe deer" and beats Holland&Holland's 1886 winning .450 pattern any time. Mounted with a 2.5 power Korean scope in Warne mounts. This rifle has got numerous red deer, roe deer and boars for me here in Germany.



Edited by CptCurl (17/01/10 01:00 AM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: kuduae]
      #150859 - 17/01/10 01:00 AM

Nice rifle and a nice kill.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
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Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: kuduae]
      #150860 - 17/01/10 01:04 AM

I have to say that it is like opening up an Egyptian tomb and finding a carving of the space shuttle on the wall. However there is something perversely appealing of the combination of the ancient and modern.
I think that it is fantastic that this old girl is still your "working gun".. good for you.

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xausa
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Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: Bramble]
      #150873 - 17/01/10 02:48 AM

A wonderful rejuvination story!

I agree with Bramble that the modern scope looks a bit odd, and I would prefer to see a vintage Zeiss Zielklein or Noske on such a rifle, but the one you used is certainly mounted correctly for snap shooting or shooting at running game.

When you regulated the barrels, did you actually alter the relationship of the barrels to one another, or did you tailor your load to get them to shoot together? If the former, did you do the work yourself or have it done? Either way, quite an accomplishment.

BTW, how do you go about tightening a Jones action?

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rigbymauser
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Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: xausa]
      #150895 - 17/01/10 04:37 AM



A bit sad with an "bamboo" scope on such a nice gun. Everytime I see a doublerifle with jones underlever, backaction hammers ...something just touch me

Thanks for sharing..

Waidmanns heil

j

Edited by rigbymauser (17/01/10 04:38 AM)

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: xausa]
      #150918 - 17/01/10 07:26 AM

I agree too to your objections to that Simmons 2.5x bamboo scope! I had reasons for using it: Mounting a regular eye relief scope like a Zielklein on a hammer double is a bum idea IMHO. Either you mount it too high for fast use or it blocks access to the left hammer. I have never seen a Noske here in Germany. I thought I needed a low mounted, longer eye relief scope so the ocular end is forward of the hammers. Granted, a Voigtlaender Skopar D 3x like the one on my Haenel 1900 would have been better, but 18 years ago I did not even know such a thing existed.
http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af303/kuduae/1900mSkoparD2.jpg
That Simmons was the only such scope available to me then, and the Warne mounts were the lowest qd mounts with the least obvious bases I could think of. Properly fitting another scope would require different mounts with windage adjustment and bases in different positions. As I believe in "Never repair anything that works", the less than perfect setup remained to this day.
This is rather a topic for the gunsmithing forum, but as you asked:
I made and fitted a larger hinge pin to tighten the action.
When the rifle came my way the muzzles looked like the thing was stored muzzle-down in a flooded room. so the useless part of the barrels had to go. I cut off the barrels and recrowned them. Next I developed a load with proper ballistics that gave acceptable individual groups. Then I made a makeshift adjusting clamp for the muzzles, filed a new regulating wedge, wound barrels and ribs with wire and so on, resoldered and adjusted the forward third of the barrels. Next time at the range, I shot a right-left 6 shot group. Repeated the process 3 times until both barrels shot together at 100meters. Last, I rust blued the barrels. Getting the rifle to full using condition took the better part of a year. Regulating a double is neither a lost art nor a trade secret, but merely a tedious and sometimes frustrating game of patience!I myself have reregulated 11 doubles by now, 5 by resoldering and 6 by load development.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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Bramble
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Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: kuduae]
      #150919 - 17/01/10 07:47 AM

Actually Kuduae I don't object to the scope at all.

It is quite shocking, but the more I look at it the more the clash of centuries and cultures appeals to me.
It is rather like my favorite building which is the Natural History museum in London, when they added the science museum wing it has a ultra modern facade. When you first look at it it is strange, but the more one thinks about it, it has a meaning of its own.

Just don't fit a plastic stock

Regards

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crkennedy1
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Reged: 05/12/08
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Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: Bramble]
      #150939 - 17/01/10 01:19 PM

Kuduae - what an awesome gun and congrats on the kill too! I know where Wick is. I have been there - North of Loch Ness!
It's amazing that you have a Scottish gun... if it could only talk, the tales it could tell... Get your kilt lad, and let's go bash some haggis! Christopher

--------------------
DOUBLE or NOTHING

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: crkennedy1]
      #150975 - 18/01/10 02:15 AM

Here are two more photos of the Robertson:







--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by CptCurl (18/01/10 06:12 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: kuduae]
      #150983 - 18/01/10 04:22 AM

I applaud your work on this rifle - it's beautiful - simply elegant - but? If you do not need the scope to cover a defective sight, I think this rifle should be shot with irons only. That then becomes the stalking rifle and big game hunting rifle if should be.

Granted 1,900fps with a 350 gr. Hornady (love that bullet myself for deer and moose) you've definitely raised the range possibilities to a good 250 yards on deer - if the rifle is accurate enough and it seems to be.

I suggest working with a cast bullet though, to promote longer life of the tubes & to get another 100fps which almost always happens with cast vs. jacketed.

Too, if stuck on using a jacketed bullet a 405gr. flat nosed bullet like the Remington driven at 1,800fps might also be a possibility - much cheaper than the Hornady's, exceptionally accurate in my guns, and at 1,700fps to 1,800fps, kills like lightening. It's thin jacket expands reliably and the pure lead core holds together like a wad of bubblegum. Incredible game bullet if kept to reasonable velocities. Although I've found the Hornady 350's to be very accurate, the 405gr. RP seems to like punching tiny goups, even smaller than the Hornady. My 'little' Sharps will keep them inside (ie: under) an inch at 100meters for 10 shots using only the tang and globed front sights shot off bags. An incredible bullet for practise on paper and for killing game.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (18/01/10 04:23 AM)

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: kuduae]
      #151016 - 18/01/10 10:57 AM

Quote:

Many years ago I bought it as a "wall hanger" at a reasonable price, well below a Baikal/Rem. or Pedersoli.



You're bragging, aren't you? Well you really deserve to as you did brilliantly well!

Good hunting and congratulations!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #151025 - 18/01/10 11:41 AM

Okay, Mehul: As I told, about 18 years ago I visited the shop of Hartmann & Weiss in Hamburg. They had this rifle standing in a corner together with some other "noble junk", bulk residue from some English auctions. Master Weiss, who happened to know me already, said:"it is only suitable for decoration or collecting, but I am quite sure you will not misuse it, you may buy it." The price tag said Deutsche Mark 1400.-, what would amount to about Euro 700.- or US$ 1000.- now. If you think I overpaid, I disagree, as rhe rifle gave me lots of fun since then. A year later, when I bought that leather handguard, I shot the rifle in their basement range and the master approved it: "Well, now it makes a quite useable simple double rifle." I do not disagree!

By the way, Mehul, as I know enough "Experts" too, I like to restore my guns myself!

Edited by kuduae (18/01/10 11:55 AM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: kuduae]
      #151060 - 19/01/10 12:20 AM

Kuduae,

You did well to reacue this rifle from the scrap heap.

I too know the pleasures of a .450 BPE Scottish rifle. My A. Henry has given me great pleasure although I have only owned it since September 2009. It is a most useful caliber. Mine is regulated for the 300 grain bullets and seems to love the Hornady offering in a N-for-B load. Quite a pleasure to shoot.

Here's a look at mine (below), along with its .577 brother, from THIS THREAD.



Like you I had success with my .450 in the hunting field last fall. A nice little white tail deer fell to one shot from the right barrel. When did that rifle last take game? Only it can tell, and it's not talking.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 734
Loc: West UK
Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: CptCurl]
      #151126 - 19/01/10 11:07 AM

Cpt Curl - I saw the previous thread but as a newcomer did not comment - but -

that is a VERY nice pair..................

TH44

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m4220
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Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 234
Loc: wa
Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: TH44]
      #151129 - 19/01/10 12:26 PM

Curl,
I notice that you mention that yours likes the 300 grn Hornady, is that the jacketed Hornady & how fast are you driving it? There an awful lot of opinions surrounding shooting jacketed bullets in these nice old Damascuss barrels- your thoughts?

Thanks
M4220

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: m4220]
      #151135 - 19/01/10 02:24 PM

TH44, Thanks for your kindness. You should feel free to comment whether a newcomer or not.


M4220, Good question. My load is 56.0 H4198, F215, two 1/2 diameter x 1" long foam wads, Hornady 300 HP, Bertram brass. It yields 2165 FPS in my 28" barrels and regulates perfectly. It's very accurate.

This load seems perfect in my rifle. Your mileage may vary. You know the rules, start low and work up.

Now about jacketed bullets in these nice old Damascus barrels. I had a conversation with Graeme Wright about just that. He said it's ok and commonly done down under. I see no ill effect after 100 or so rounds. Keep your fingers crossed.

Remember, steel barrels of the same vintage are no stronger. Our man Kuduae (author of this thread) is shooting the 350 grain Hornady, a much tougher bullet than the 300 I'm shooting.

I may get a paper patched bullet mould for my .450, but I may just stick with the Hornady jacketed 300 HP. It is really good in the rifle. I don't think it does any harm, but you use your own judgment in your antique.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: CptCurl]
      #151138 - 19/01/10 02:30 PM

P.S.

M4220, remember that the Brits went to jacketed (copper tubed) bullets in their N-for-B loads. If it was ok for them I think it's ok now.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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m4220
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Reged: 04/02/07
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Loc: wa
Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: CptCurl]
      #151145 - 19/01/10 03:20 PM

Curl,

Thanks, I have been cautious with this desision as I am starting to work up some different loads to try in my H Scherping .450 3 1/4 BPE Jones underlever D/R and another H Scherping 500/450 # 2 Musket BPE in a Bockdoppelbucshe hammer D/R and the use of jacketed bullets certainly offers some more options. Have heard really good things about the 350 grn Hornady. We spit one of each and the 350 grn definitly has a thicker jacket. I also picked up some 330 grn gas checked lead that I will
be trying as well. I am just waiting on a 450 shell holder now & then I should be ready to start.

thanks again
M4220

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: m4220]
      #151189 - 20/01/10 03:28 AM

M4220,

Why not share some photos of your beauties on this the DRarchive forum. We all will enjoy seeing your rifles.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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belgmart
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Reged: 29/02/04
Posts: 78
Re: A.Robertson&Son .500/450#1BPE hammer dr [Re: CptCurl]
      #151597 - 24/01/10 01:21 AM

For those having access to them, the H&N Hi-speed bullets would IMO make quite nice and not-too-expensive fodder for such rifles - they have 350gr pills, and the bullets are made of quite soft lead with a few proprietary coatings, which allow them to be used at higher MV's than traditional lead slugs. The shape is kinda truncated-cone flat point. maybe another solution if you don't want to use jacketed bullets.
Here some infp from their website:

.45 / 70 KS

Diameter
Zoll/Millimeter .458 / 11,63 .458 / 11,63 .458 / 11,63 Hollow Point: .458 / 11,63

Gewicht
Grain/Gramm
300 / 19,44 350 / 22,68 400 / 25,92 300 / 19,44
Ausführung
HS HS HS HS

--------------------
Martini's Rule!

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