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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive

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malco
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Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: montana, usa
Two uncommon Mannlichers
      #136876 - 07/06/09 01:22 PM

Hello from Montana. I stumbled on Nitroexpress while looking for Mannlicher info online, and I've come to regard it as the best meeting ground I've seen for people dedicated to real hunting and fine arms--sort of a modern version of an old-fashioned colonial sporting club. Things seem to have quieted down on the Mannlicher front, so I'm posting pictures and descriptions of the two I own, both of which are unique in relation to any of the rifles previously featured. One is a Model 1924, the first MS produced specifically for the American market (and in a non-proprietary cartridge), the other a factory-scoped 1903 carbine wearing its original Oigee 4x. Here's a picture of the two together.



I lucked into the 1924 first, when I worked in a gun shop during college. We saw very few MS rifles of any type, but I'd wanted one for a long time. When a guy brought this in looking to trade it, I had no idea it was as rare a model as it is. Apparently only a thousand were produced, all for the US market. A friend had the 1903, and sold it to me last summer (grudgingly!) to finance some other gun trades. He described it to me on the phone as factory-scoped, but I didn't actually believe it until I saw a picture he sent. I'd seen a number of claw-mounted pre-war Mannlichers, all with the front base dovetailed into action ring, but this was the first true Steyr mount to cross my path. Here's the mounting system:



Some of the wood detail:



My friend also described an add-on peep sight, which I later learned to be a Lyman Model 36, a cult favorite amongst American Mannlicher fans. The peep is mounted on a spring-loaded arm that pivots out of the way when the bolt handle passes. As you can see, the Lyman is nearly as intricate as the rifle itself.



Both rifles shoot well. I've killed several deer and a pronghorn with the 1924, and plan to hunt with the 1903 this year, now that I've figured out how to load for it. I am curious to know more about the pre-war scoped rifles--did Steyr ever dovetail the action ring for claw mounts, or was this strictly a retrofitted arrangement? Does anyone know the percentage of factory-scoped guns? My rifle was sold new through Abercrombie and Fitch in 1929, and the A&F and Sequoia ads I've seen show the same pincer-mount I've got, although a pre-war Stoeger catalog seems to show a mount on the action ring. If anyone has any info, I'd love to learn more! In the meantime, a parting shot.



Best,
Malcolm

Edited by CptCurl (08/02/10 02:16 AM)


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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: malco]
      #136880 - 07/06/09 09:18 PM

Dear Malcolm, Very, very nice. Take care, Tom

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: malco]
      #136882 - 07/06/09 10:06 PM

Very interesting post. I have read it twice, but still don't know the caliber of the 1924 (except that it is non-proprietary). Could you enlighten us?

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malco
.275 member


Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: montana, usa
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: xausa]
      #136891 - 08/06/09 12:10 AM

Oops--got so caught up in my description I forgot to mention caliber. It's .30-06. In that era a company called Sequoia Importing specialized in European guns and sporting equipment. Sequoia persuaded Steyr to build a run of rifles for the US market in .30-06, which became this model. Steyr had to lengthen the action slightly, and in the process changed the bolt release lever to the rectangular pattern. The 1924 was only made for a year, then morphed into the High Velocity model for a host of non-proprietary chamberings. My rifle is very light--barely 7 pounds--and kicks like three mules with modern premium ammo (you can't see it in the photos, but it still has the original trapdoor buttplate). I've heard that all the 1924 rifles are configured like mine--half-stock sporters--but don't know for sure. If anyone knows more about the Sequoia rifles, or about factory-scoped pre-war guns, I'd like to learn more about both. Thanks for your interest!
Malcolm


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: malco]
      #136986 - 09/06/09 01:02 AM

Malcolm,

Welcome and thanks for a lovely post. Yes, you're absolutely right - we do have the nicest people coming here to discuss guns, and that is why you're here as well.

Do post more pictures when you find time, especially of the trapdoor buttplate and if you hunt, of course, we shall appreciate a hunt report in out E-zine. You have two beautiful rifles, and, like a beautiful date on your arm, you are absolutely right to show them off.

Welcome again and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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malco
.275 member


Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: montana, usa
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #137335 - 15/06/09 01:07 PM

I resolved before the weekend ran out altogether to post a few more photos--first off the requested trapdoor buttplate on the 1924. As you can see, the factory cleaning rod remains, plus room for two spare rounds.




Shot #2: the 3-leaf rear sight, which I believe is unique to the 1924. All three leaves fold.





This last also illustrates how slim the early rifles are from the top down. I'm a certified fan of the full-stock guns, but the sporter-length rifles have a lethal elegance all their own.

I'll wrap up with more than mere eye-candy. Here's a group I shot with the 1903 a few days ago, from a rest at a hundred yards. Hornady 160-grain round nose, my own hand load.



The scope certainly helps, even though by modern standards it has optics that my ten-year-old son likens to a funhouse mirror. But yes, even these old guns with walnut to the muzzle can still shoot like a house afire. Thanks for looking!

Malcolm

Edited by CptCurl (08/02/10 02:19 AM)


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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: malco]
      #137359 - 15/06/09 09:42 PM

without having a clue as to what value they are rated at,I imagine that they both would bring real money...

Nice preserved old rifles too,it would be fantastic to have a crystal ball to know what the `03 has taken in its long life.

Have you an idea of their monetary value?

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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malco
.275 member


Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: montana, usa
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: gryphon]
      #137406 - 16/06/09 12:48 PM

I'm not entirely sure what they're worth, to be honest--I've been watching the online auctions for years and haven't seen a duplicate of either of these offered for sale. The standard blue-book guides are useless. I lucked into both guns--the stars went into alignment or something, and they simply fell into my lap. I know for sure I paid a lot less for each than they're worth to me, which is somewhere in the neighborhood of the proverbial left nut. I've got two sons, and barring some off-the-charts emergency, they'll each inherit one (and others if I'm lucky enough to acquire them). Hopefully, they'll enjoy them as much as I do. I'm actively interested in learning more about both Sequoia-imported rifles and pre-war factory-scoped guns--if anyone has any info, please help!
Best,
Malcolm


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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: malco]
      #137407 - 16/06/09 01:40 PM

Defintely north of $1500 each. Less in Europe and UK.

Hope you like them as I do mine. BTW I think the 1924 was also offered in 10.75 x 68


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: kamilaroi]
      #152961 - 06/02/10 06:54 AM

Not all M1924s made it to the USA! The ca. 1930 WUM export catalog shows a cut of the M1924 with it's slightly shorter, in front of the sling swivel, foreend and it's distinctive "Express" rear sight with 3 folding leaves to illustrate the M1925 "High Velocity" rifle. Note: In 8x60 Magnum and 7x64 the export price was US$ 70,- , while the 30-06 was offered at a 10% discount! Three years ago on EGUN a gunsmith offered a rifle with a misleading description: "A very early Mannlicher-Schoenauer, serial #299, mounted with claw-mounts and a 4x Kahles Heliavier scope, caliber changed to 30-06." I noticed the above-mentioned earmarks of a M1924 and the Vienna-style snap-on factory mount. As there were no other bidders, I got it for Euro 350.- +p&h. As it turned out, the stock needed some refinishing due to storage dents, but otherwise the rifle is in original, nearly unused condition. Even the scope mount is numbered 299. Only the inscription on the receiver ring "M1924" has been crudely changed to "KAL:7.62x63", the metric designation of the.30-06. This was apparently done to make it saleable alongside the M1925, which was the first Mannlicher-Schoenauer model that was offered in several chambering and had the cartridge designation in this place instead of a model year.







--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by CptCurl (08/02/10 02:21 AM)


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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: kuduae]
      #152984 - 06/02/10 12:57 PM

Addendum,

Having shot a modele 1924 in 10.75 x 68 around 7 1/2lbs (steel buttplate)then the recoil is a bit stiff but manageable therefore I would doubt that a 30-06 is a beast.

As Marrakai knows the 10.75 went to the NT abt 2000.


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malco
.275 member


Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: montana, usa
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: kamilaroi]
      #153139 - 08/02/10 01:01 PM

Hello and thanks for posting--
I didn't mean to imply that my 1924 is unmanageable--when I say it kicks hard, I mean in relation to the other rifles I've shot in the same cartridge. It's mainly noticeable when fired off a bench, and I think mainly a function of the thin comb in conjunction with the gun's overall light weight. But it's not a strike-terror-in-the-hearts-of-men deal by any means. It's a fun gun to hunt with, and I've shot several deer and a prongbuck with it. If anyone has more info on the Sequoia guns (or 1924's in general), please continue to share--
Best,
Malcolm


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malco
.275 member


Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: montana, usa
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: malco]
      #155555 - 05/03/10 02:28 PM

I'd like to fit a modern scope to the 1903 without altering the rifle--has anyone tried this with a similar rifle? I called New England Custom Gun to see if anyone there had a suggestion, and the guy I talked with seemed to think that the original front dovetail on my rifle wouldn't accept a clawmount base. If anyone has a suggestion or past experience with this dilemma, please advise! Also, if anyone knows of a source for Springer-style pincer mounts similar to those already on the rifle, I'm interested--

Best,
Malcolm


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lawndart
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Reged: 09/05/06
Posts: 35
Loc: Idaho, USA
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: malco]
      #155570 - 05/03/10 06:15 PM

Hi Malco,

What load did you settle on for your 1903?

What sort of groups will she give you at 100 yards? She is obviously minute of pronghorn!

Thanks,

LD


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malco
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Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: montana, usa
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: lawndart]
      #155590 - 06/03/10 02:08 AM

Hi LD--

It's still a work in progress--the component shortage last year put a serious crimp in my ability to experiment, and frankly the rifle's original optic doesn't help which is why I'm trying to get a modern scope fitted up. What I have determined is that the 37-39 gr. Norma 204 load with the 160 Hornady RN is a good bit hotter than the only published recipe I was able to try out of the Hornady manual, using H4895. The maximum velocity for this powder/bullet combo is 2000 fps, which seems pretty marginal in relation to bullet performance. On the other hand, I used the H4895 behind a 140 gr. Hornady SP (around 2100 fps) to kill the prongbuck, and it worked great. I've got two lbs. of Norma 204, and with moderate resizing I can get 8-10 firings out of Norma brass with the above-mentioned RN load, so for now I'm staying with that.

Malcolm


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Larry
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Reged: 17/05/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Texas
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: malco]
      #160587 - 17/05/10 08:48 AM

The "solution" for scope mounting on a M1903 is a Griffin & Howe side mount, although it does require some wood work. Folks were not into preparing their rifles for scope mounting back in the first part of the 1900s, so every claw mount was almost unique.

As for the reloading, I have been reloading the 6.5x54mm since 1976 with first 37 to 38 grains of Norma 203 with 140 grain and 156 grain class bullets from Norma, Speer, and RWS. When N203 began to undergo changes I moved to Norma 204 at 39 to 40 grains with Hornaday 140 and 160 RNs, Speer 140 (.263) RWS H-mantles, and Norma 156 gr. Vulkan and Oryx. Velocities amongst all these loads vary from a low of 270 fps to 2490 fps. The RWS and other heavy bullets run 2360 fps to 2375 fps, best consistency of all.

Firearms used = M1903 carbine (2), MCA carbine, SBS-96 carbine

--------------------
LLS


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malco
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Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: montana, usa
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: Larry]
      #160600 - 17/05/10 12:48 PM

Larry! I was wondering when I'd run into you on here...Thanks for your input regarding handloading, you've helped me before and I've done well with your advice.

Part of the issue with changing out the scope on my 1903 is that it doesn't have claw mounts, it's got factory-installed Springer-mounts, with clothespin-type pincers that engage a set of ears dovetailed into the ring at the back of the barrel. I'm now trying to track down a second set of Springers (or a used-up, stray scope that's got them) to fit the mounts to a second scope, which could then be fitted without altering the gun itself. If anyone knows where the parts could be had, please let me know! In the meantime, I'll just use it as-is.

Thanks again, Larry--hope all is well in Texas.

Malcolm


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Larry
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Reged: 17/05/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Texas
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: malco]
      #160624 - 18/05/10 02:23 AM

Malcolm!
I have an even stranger M-S scope problem. A M1910 apparently rebarrelled to .22 Varminter way way back when. The mounts are clamps, screw holes threaded metric, and I need a scope a little smaller than 7/8s. Good luck finding your parts. I'll bet one of our MCA member in Germany might be able to come up with something.

Texas is already getting hot and humid. Thank God for a/c!

--------------------
LLS


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: Larry]
      #160633 - 18/05/10 06:41 AM

A little smaller than 7/8" like 22 mm, or like 3/4"?

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: xausa]
      #160654 - 19/05/10 12:08 AM

That is a very nice pair. Please do not hunt with them in the rain!

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malco
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Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: montana, usa
Re: Two uncommon Mannlichers [Re: 500grains]
      #160684 - 19/05/10 12:28 PM

500--
You strike me as a man who knows a nice pair when he sees one--and I'm not talking about rifles! Let's just say I eagerly look forward to your comments on this or any other topic...

I've hunted with both guns in the snow, but I really take pains to get them dried off and near a heat source as soon as the hunt's done. I wouldn't take them into really rough conditions for any length of time.

Thanks for checking in!

Malcolm


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