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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving
      #125258 - 28/01/09 11:49 AM

NE Folks,

As NE is an international forum I am hoping that perhaps someone can help me identify the artwork on one of my most important projects. My father, who passed away approaching four ago, left me this piece. Unfortunately his illness took him away from us before he was able to complete his pet project. The butt-stock had been broken and discarded prior to my father acquiring it and given the complexity of the wood to metal interface re-stocking this thing promises to be quite an ordeal. When the stock was broken much of the inner works of the receiver was thrown out of alignment due to the trigger plate being twisted. For those of you who aren't familiar with this design of Brenneke receivers it is a variation of a blitz action with four safety features design to prevent accidental discharges. My father spent many hours studying and measuring every component before he made all the necessary corrections. The action, to include all of the safety features, functions as smooth as new. It should keep me busy for a while but in the mean time I was thinking that I should ask if you have any ideas as to the origin of the engraving design.

At first I was going to post the picture of the underside of the receiver on Capt. Curl's "Bellies" thread but I wanted to show you the top as well.

Marcus

PS - For the record this piece is configured as 16 ga. X 16 ga. over 9.3X74R.




--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

Edited by CptCurl (17/02/09 12:05 AM)

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
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Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: Buchsemann]
      #125260 - 28/01/09 12:28 PM

Marcus,

Thanks for posting another beautiful piece. I'm no expert on art but this does look vaguely Egyptian / Turkish / Arab in style to me from what I have seen of art from the region. The engraving is definitely not the kind that would have been ordered in India or other countries in South Asia even by Muslims in that region. Also, it is my suspicion that with the British dominating the Indian subcontinent in 1912, it is possible that this was ordered in a country that was close to Germany in those years. Or, maybe, a European aristocrat who had toured, visited or fought in that part of the world in the Great War could have ordered this with region specific engraving.

And, most importantly, congratulations to you and to your father, God Bless his soul. Please do post pictures of the restoration project as it proceeds.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #125275 - 28/01/09 01:55 PM

Mehul,

Thank you for your blessing for my father. My father was a United States Marine and had a mixed tour of duty towards the end of WW2 and a couple years after. Besides a stint as part of the occupation force in Japan he had spent time in Morocco, Turkey, and Palestine. He said the geometric pattern and simple swirls reminded him of designs he has seen in Morocco. After looking at other art from that region I have believed that he was on to something. It sounds like you are thinking much the same. I haven't seen another German gun engraved like this, thus far, but it wouldn't surprise me to see another someday agreeing with you that the Europeans had been spending many years touring the Middle East. I have yet to positively identify the crest engraved on the top lever but I'll continue my research in between other projects.

I have to apologize to NE for posting this in a double rifles section of the forum. After I confirmed the post I noticed that there is another section for single shot and combination guns further down on the list, oops. I'm not sure how to move it at this point.

As this project progresses I'll take pictures for the forum.

Regards,

Mark

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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fuhrmann
.333 member


Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 328
Loc: Switzerland
Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: Buchsemann]
      #127287 - 16/02/09 08:19 PM

Mark,

that's a very interesting gun - I hope you will show more details!

Some ideas:
The gun appears to be dated 1912.
The top lever shows a crest and a crown. So it probably was made for somebody from nobility.
I assume the gun was made to order, and the engraving reflects the taste of the owner - he clearly wanted "something different".
Might be influenced by "Jugendstil" or "art nouveau".

Fuhrmann

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93mouse
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Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
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Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: fuhrmann]
      #127301 - 16/02/09 11:18 PM

Spot on fuhrmann - certanly descends from Vienna/Munich secession style - very nice to see it on rifle!

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: 93mouse]
      #127305 - 17/02/09 12:06 AM

Very interesting piece. I, too, would like to see more details.

Thanks for posting.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: CptCurl]
      #127326 - 17/02/09 04:26 AM

Fuhrmann and 93mouse,

Thank you for your very interesting comments. I have not heard anyone say it might be "Jugendstil" or "art nouveau" before or as 93mouse said in the "Vienna/Munich secession style". By chance do either of you have an example of the aforementioned that you could show me? I would love to see one as the engraving on the subject Brenneke has been a mystery to my father and I for a long time.

Again, I thank you very much. I was hoping posting it on the NE forum would bring in some ideas and it has, excellent! My father, Mehul, and I were thinking it had a Middle Eastern influence. It’s all very very interesting.

Curl,

I've attached a few more pictures to provide more detail of the receiver.

Best regards,

Marcus









--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

Edited by CptCurl (18/02/09 01:43 PM)

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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: Buchsemann]
      #127329 - 17/02/09 05:41 AM

NE,

I was sitting here at my desk thinking it would be nice to send you a picture of what the subject piece is supposed to look like once stocked when I looked up and noticed the print-out of a page from a 1925 Brenneke catalog that I have tacked on my bulletin board right in front of my face.

That was easy! Here you go ...

Marcus



--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

Edited by CptCurl (18/02/09 01:44 PM)

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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 328
Loc: Switzerland
Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: Buchsemann]
      #127336 - 17/02/09 07:42 AM

Mark,

thanks for the catalog picture!
I was wondering if there are side plates, now I understand.
I think this is a very rare, maybe unique piece!
The automatic safety in the nose of the comb is unique.
The additional side lumps were also patented by Brenneke.
H. Wolf described a more conventional Brenneke drilling in Hatari Times some years ago.
And self-cocking locks with outside hammers I have up to now only seen from Fueckert in Weipert, the "Kronen" system.

Sorry, I am definitely not an arts expert, can't give you any specific examples.
Only general references like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Nouveau

"Jugendstil" liked organic, flowery ornaments and motives very much, but geometric ornaments were also used. And I read some mentions about oriental, especially japanese influences.

Fuhrmann

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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: fuhrmann]
      #127343 - 17/02/09 09:45 AM

Fuhrmann,

Out of the few guns that Brenneke manufactured (I've been told perhaps only 400) this one definitely has some interesting features. When my father was well into the repair and restoration of this piece he was asked by Dietrich Apel of the German Gun Collectors Association to write an article documenting his progress. His article was published in the GGCA's "Der Waffenschmied" No. 22, Summer 2004 Volume 7, No. 2. Unfortunately my father was taken from us before he was able to complete the project. He left that task up to me. It's a rather important project to me to say the least. I snapped a picture of a section on page 12 of the journal were my father describes how the safety features work. I will be one very happy camper when I am finally able to shoot it. The drinks will be on me! Who the toast will be to should be clear.

Marcus

PS - When it's complete I'll have to fill the group in on how it all began, starting in 1957! It makes me smile every time I think about it.





--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

Edited by CptCurl (18/02/09 01:45 PM)

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93mouse
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Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: Buchsemann]
      #127382 - 17/02/09 07:06 PM

Marcus in short and simple - secession style followed the late barocco (rococo) that was cramed to its fullest - so guys went looking "back to the roots" - Mehul was close (bit to the south tho ) - they found their inspiration in Old Greeks (they have copied it from Egyptians ) - if you look at their ornamentics you will get the pic - here is a sample of Old Greek mosaic :





or



Same basics can even be found in latest engravings:



However - that drilling of yours shows original spirit of the time!

Edited by CptCurl (18/02/09 01:50 PM)

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Buchsemann
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
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Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: 93mouse]
      #127412 - 18/02/09 06:25 AM

93mouse,

Thank you, and Fuhrmann, for helping me to dial into the general region of inspiration for the artwork on the subject drilling. I doubt we'll ever know why the gentleman who ordered this piece requested such a design but it is nice having something a little different in the collection.

Regards,

Marcus

PS - Thank you for the pictures.

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: Buchsemann]
      #127492 - 19/02/09 08:01 AM

Fuhrmann & 93mouse,

I did some extensive searching on the Internet over the last couple of days trying to see what I could find on the origins of the subject engraving pattern.

Update: A woman (last name Morocart) who just happens to run a Moroccan "architectural details" shop in Florida with her husband sent me the attached photo of a pattern that they carry in response to some pictures that I had sent to them. She said the picture that she gave me is of a very common Islamic pattern seen all over the Middle East.

Having the eight pointed star at the intersection of each link makes the pattern a little fancier but in general it appears very similar to what is on the Brenneke.

At this point I think we have a pretty good idea of the region of origin for the engraving pattern. Which came first with regard to influence, either Mediterranean or Middle East, is something I'm not going to worry about.

Regards,

Mark



--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: Buchsemann]
      #128016 - 25/02/09 12:38 PM

Mark,

Thank you very much for the research, my friend. This is turning into a most interesting thread and may we expect an article from you for our E-zine when this project is completed? It would be an article well worth printing out and preserving!

93Mouse,

Thank you very much for the details of the engraving style. This makes the rifle an even more interesting prospect for research and Mark should have some fantastic times looking her history up. Greek origins from 1912 should be even more interesting!

Wonderful thread and I shall look forward to seeing how it develops. Thanks and good hunting, gentlemen!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mehulkamdar
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Posts: 3688
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Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: Buchsemann]
      #129258 - 11/03/09 06:55 AM

Marcus,

There's an original Brenneke Drilling for sale with an action like yours at: http://jagdundfreizeit.de/waffen_gebraucht_lang.html

Just thought the pictures might help you restore your gun. Please scroll down the page.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Buchsemann
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #129289 - 11/03/09 02:44 PM

Mehul,

Thank you for sharing the Jagd & Freizeit listing with me. The Brenneke featured in the listing is an interesting combination of two Brenneke breech designs that I haven't seen before. I've attached a picture of another drilling that a fellow GGCA member sent me some time ago showing the same barrel/breech interface as the gun pictured in the listing but with pretty much a standard “blitz” action. The gun in the listing has the more complicated action with multiple safety features closer to mine, to include the low profile hammer like cocking levers/cocking indicators but it's not a "clamshell". Brenneke called the reinforced barrel/breech interface of the two non-clamshell designs the Brenneke "Verschluss" and the clamshells were called the Brenneke "Ideal Verschluss". He offered the "Ideal Verschluss" configured with a standard "blitz" action or the more complicated "Sicherheits" (safety) models. I knew Brenneke had offered the “Verschluss” breech design with either a “box-lock” or “blitz” action but until now I had not seen a third choice. It's neat for me to see this so I thank you again.

Marcus



PS – All of the Brenneke break-open receiver configurations that I knew of were available for drillings, double rifles, and shotguns. It looks like the action shown in the Jagd & Freizeit listing leads to the possibility of a few more variations.





I almost forgot to mention that Brenneke “Sicherheits” actions are also seen trailing behind the more conventional barrel/breech interfaces that we are more used to seeing (pictured above). The rather ornate piece is a double rifle and the “Plain Jane” is a drilling.

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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fuhrmann
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Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: Buchsemann]
      #129294 - 11/03/09 06:25 PM

Mark,

have you seen this article?

http://www.hataritimes.com/en/leseproben/LP%20Brenneke%20E.pdf

Fuhrmann

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Buchsemann
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: fuhrmann]
      #129312 - 12/03/09 01:44 AM

Fuhrmann,

Yes, I read it some time ago. Thank you for the link. I'll read it again during lunch today.

Regards,

Marcus

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Patent Brenneke Drilling - Engraving [Re: Buchsemann]
      #129321 - 12/03/09 04:21 AM

Fuhrmann,

It's a well written and very educational article. It made for good reading once again. I'd like to know how everything turned out with Harald's Brenneke repro project. Have you heard or read anything?

Marcus

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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