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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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ozhunter
.400 member


Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Mannlicher steel rotary mag
      #122479 - 28/12/08 09:45 AM

Is there much difference in the size between a 6.5x54 , 7X57 and 9.3X62 steel rotary mag from the old Mannlicher?
Just wandering if a Greek model can be converted with out to much trouble.

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GG375
.333 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 347
Loc: Brisbane
Re: Mannlicher steel rotary mag [Re: ozhunter]
      #122481 - 28/12/08 10:47 AM

Adam

The MS rotary magazine really is cartridge specific. It is hard to describe but basically consists of a spring loaded rotar with 5 longitudinal "beds" arranged about its axis, each of which holds one round. Each of the 5 "beds" is profiled to the exact shape of the cartridge the rifle is chambered for.

The rotar sits in the middle of the main body of the mag assembly which has provision for support of the rounds at front (projectile nose) and rear as they rotate in the mag. To allow proper feeding you need to stick to the original projectile shape and cartridge overall length (or at least that has been my experience) so that the cartridges remain supported and feed properly.

The post war models seem to be less finicky because the support ring was moved back to the cartridges shoulder area which gives a few more projectile options.

To change a MS to a different cartridge would require at least sourcing an appropriate rotar, or machining the old one for the new cartridge shape, corresponding changes to the main body of the mag, not to mention goodness knows what changes to feed rails etc. I suppose if the cartridge shapes were close it would simplify things a bit.

Having said all that it has been done before so obviously isn't impossible.

These are just my opinions based on the little experience I have with Mannlichers. Others here will be able to give better descriptions and ideas based on much more experience.

Cheers.

GG

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TilleyMan
.333 member


Reged: 23/08/05
Posts: 272
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Mannlicher steel rotary mag [Re: GG375]
      #126519 - 10/02/09 12:26 PM

GG

I've always been interested in the MS rotary magazines... heard many reports about how beautifully engineered they were.

Do you or anyone else have any detailed photos of the MS magazine, or sections/exploded views?

I did a Google search but didn't find much...

Cheers

TM

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GG375
.333 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 347
Loc: Brisbane
Re: Mannlicher steel rotary mag [Re: TilleyMan]
      #126526 - 10/02/09 01:21 PM


I haven't, but I will take some when I get 5 mins and post here for you.

Cheers.

GG

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TilleyMan
.333 member


Reged: 23/08/05
Posts: 272
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Mannlicher steel rotary mag [Re: GG375]
      #126529 - 10/02/09 01:42 PM

Thanks GG, much appreciated!

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Mike_Bailey
.400 member


Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: Mannlicher steel rotary mag [Re: TilleyMan]
      #126561 - 10/02/09 06:54 PM

Me too GG, I'd like to see one, I finally found a Greek military 1930 MS in 6.5 X 54 MS, pretty
shagged out barrel etc but the perfect candidate for a bottom up restoration. The smith now has
the french blank and the old rifle and a clean sheet but can't start till July so I won't
see it till Sept 2010 I guess best, Mike

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Clark
.275 member


Reged: 25/11/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Sweden
Re: Mannlicher steel rotary mag [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #126579 - 10/02/09 09:12 PM

Here is one on a 1903 model:



/C

Edited by CptCurl (05/06/13 10:35 AM)

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Mannlicher steel rotary mag [Re: Clark]
      #127015 - 14/02/09 07:36 PM

Oz:
Here are a couple of visual comparisons that may be useful:

1. M-1903 Mannlicher Schönauer 6.5x54 sporting carbine on left,
Greek 6.5mm Military Mannlicher on the right:






2. M-1903 Mannlicher Schönauer 6.5x54 sporting carbine on left,
M-1910 Mannlicher Schönauer 9.5x57 sporting rifle on the right:






Cute, hey!

Also, note the significant difference in 1st cartridge recess, between Clark's 1903 and both my 6.5s. Don't know what's going on there! You can see another Greek(?) magazine in Mike Bailey's second photo on the "new" Mannlicher thread, its the same as my two 6.5s.
Interesting!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by CptCurl (05/06/13 10:36 AM)

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TilleyMan
.333 member


Reged: 23/08/05
Posts: 272
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Mannlicher steel rotary mag [Re: Marrakai]
      #127135 - 15/02/09 04:08 PM

Thanks Clark and Marrakai!

They are indeed a very 'simple and elegant' design solution.

Must have been rather tricky to machine at high volume for military contracts though...

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Clark
.275 member


Reged: 25/11/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Sweden
Re: Mannlicher steel rotary mag [Re: Marrakai]
      #127306 - 17/02/09 12:41 AM

Quote:



Also, note the significant difference in 1st cartridge recess, between Clark's 1903 and both my 6.5s. Don't know what's going on there! You can see another Greek(?) magazine in Mike Bailey's second photo on the "new" Mannlicher thread, its the same as my two 6.5s.
Interesting!



Great pictures!

Oops, I should have noted that the mag I showed is actually modified a little to try to accomodate the slightly bigger 6,5x55 Swedish Mauser. It isn't my rifle, but I've seen it as it is for sale at the moment (and the picture is from an article about MS rifles in general which features this specific rifle). Despite the altered magazine the rifle can still only feed 4 6,5x55 cartridges, and also only one type of handloaded cartridge with a certain bullet length. Other types of cartridges will not feed.

The post-1950 models added wings on the side of the magazine (can't find a picture of a 1950 magazine) so the cartridge recess didn't have to be so cartridge specific, which probably lessened the handiwork of producing support for a lot of different calibers.

Tried to take a pic of my NO model magazine, which is exactly like the 1950 one:



/C

EDIT: Added pic

Edited by CptCurl (05/06/13 10:36 AM)

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DuggaBoy
.300 member


Reged: 03/03/09
Posts: 106
Loc: Tx
Re: Mannlicher steel rotary mag [Re: Clark]
      #128689 - 04/03/09 06:19 AM

Have modified Bredas to 6mm Rem, 7x57,6.5x55, 308 , don't recommend it due to time involved but it is do-able. just a PITA

--------------------
DuggaBoy
NRA-Life
Whittington-Life
TSRA-Life
DSC

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brosteve
.224 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 39
Loc: TX USA
Re: Mannlicher steel rotary mag [Re: DuggaBoy]
      #226197 - 01/03/13 01:38 PM

GG is one hundred percent exactly right about the rotars being caliber specific. Contact the Mannlicher Collectors Society (they are very service minded people, I happen to be a member)for advice. Some projects have not worked out and the magazine was pretty much trashed in trying particularly to enlarge to the bullet diameter of a larger cartridge. I was successful in going from 8x56 to 7x57, and also to 8x57. Don't tell my friends at MCS! Best to leave it ALONE and find another Mannlicher in the caliber which you desire. It would probably be just about impossible to find another magazine, by itself, which would facilitate the alteration. Great rifles, though! Steve

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twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Mannlicher steel rotary mag [Re: brosteve]
      #226441 - 05/03/13 02:38 PM

Adam,

I once did work on a 1903 Greek that had been partially converted to .257 Roberts.

Someone had rebarrelled it and restocked it but had done absolutely no work to get a cartridge in the magazine nor to get it to feed.

I had a later commercial MS .270 magazine available which didn't (?) have the fins between the cartridge bodies. So I removed them from the 1903 mag. I left the "cartrige pushing paddle" on the spool of course......... and the fins on the neck section (?).

Then I increased the diameter of the radius inside the magazine where the case head rotates (as the magazine is filled/emptied) to suit the new case head size and made and fitted the "wings" that support/guide the shoulder area of the case.

It was then a case to "spot" in the cartridge to fit between the feed rails of the action. Then it would allow you to feed the magazine through the top of the action and to empty the magazine when you pushed the "little button".

More "spotting" eventually allowed the cartridge to feed from the magazine into the chamber.

Eventually the thing fed just like a Mannlicher.

If my memory is hazy on this it's because it's been a while since I did this job and the alcohol that I drank to forget it must have been effective.

The things you do for mates !!!!.

If I had an original MS takeoff mount, double set triggers, a good donor rifle, along with an appropriately contoured stock I may well attempt this again........supposing I had alot of other projects done.

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brosteve
.224 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 39
Loc: TX USA
Re: Mannlicher steel rotary mag [Re: twobobbwana]
      #226443 - 05/03/13 02:56 PM

Twobob: sounds like you know what a lot of work it is to alter them...and you weren't even trying to go from small to .375 as was discussed! Someone said that the job you completed "was very satisfying work--in fact they were satisfied for life, having done it once!"
When you completed the project did you still have one unusable magazine at the end of it all? Steve

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Mannlicher steel rotary mag [Re: brosteve]
      #226475 - 06/03/13 05:11 AM

ozhunter's original question was: Is there much difference in the size between a 6.5x54 , 7X57 and 9.3X62 steel rotary mag from the old Mannlicher?
Yes, they differ, and much more than the shape of the cartridge "beds" in the rotor. They differ in length, width and rotor length too. Here are five different Mannlicher-Schoenauer magazines:


Left to right:
M1903 in 6.5x54 length oa 86.4mm width 26.0mm length of rotor 77.8mm
M1910 in 9.5x57 l 86.4mm w 28.6mm rotor 77.8mm
Her the cartridges are guided by the base and bullet nose.
M1924, the so-called "Sequoia model" in .30-06
length 92.9mm wide 28.2mm rotor 84.5mm
This model introduced a cartridge guide ring around the bullets, in front of case necks.
The lengthening of the mag box to the rear necessitated a different, new bolt stop, as the old one would hang out in the air if placed farther back on the receiver.
M1925 in 8x60S length 92.9mm wide 28.2mm rotor 84.5mm
from here on the guide ring is relocated to support the specific case shoulder.
All the post-war Mannlicher-Schoenauers have these long magazines, they only differ in the position of the guide ring and the shape of the much simplified rotors.
M1952 Magnum in 6.5x68 92.9mm wide 28.2 rotor 86.2mm

Another photo of two disassembled magazines for TilleyMan, a M1903 and a 1952 Magnum to show the simplified rotor, and the respective Magazine spring assemblies.


My answer to the original question: No, they are not alike. You can squeeze a 7x57 or 8x57 into the short magazines. Many M1908s were altered or rebarreled for these cartridges. But for longer cartridges like .30-06 or 9.3x62 you need a post-1924 long magazine and action.

Edited by CptCurl (05/06/13 10:38 AM)

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twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Mannlicher steel rotary mag [Re: kuduae]
      #226496 - 06/03/13 12:30 PM

brosteve,

Oops it looks like we got off adam's original question abit.

By kuduae's photos we can see that length will preclude alot of conversions.

To go from a short cartridge to a long cartridge you'd have to get a "long magazine" and cutnshut two actions & bolts (firing pins & obtaining long action firing pin springs) to end up with a long action, just like they do with some mauser magnum conversions.

Diameter would also be an issue if you converted to a cartridge of much greater "girth" than the original. Large increases in Neck size and shoulder size would also become a factor due to their relationship to the neck area of the spool and the inside diameter of the shoulder "support ring". I've already mentioned the inside radius on the magazine where the head of the cartridge rotates.

Kuduae's bottom picture, of the dissasembled magazines, shows the type of magazine I had as an example to work off. The one on the right does not have the partitions between the cartridge bodies.

This shows that each individual cartridge's alloted "bed" area in the spool doesn't have to be closely fitted to the cartridge. Please MS devotees/zelots this is not an attack on what you've said...........just my observations.......and I've been wrong before !!!!!!

I think that it would be adventageous for the indent in the "cartridge pushing paddle" to match the contour of the cartridge. It would, at least, give you optimum magazine capacity.

No Steve I didn't have any left over mags at the end of the whole process........not even any spare parts. Yep it was satisfying work as it had been "converted" by a local "legend" but I got the old girl working like it should have and back in action.

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