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CarlsenHighway
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Reged: 19/03/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Port Chalmers, New Zealand
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #296724 - 10/03/17 06:43 PM

I have just been reading Townsend Whelen from the "The American Rifle" (1918), and found it interesting that he reports the common inaccuracy of the Ross sporting rifles chambered in .280. He found it unusual for a .280 Ross to shoot less than six inch groups at 100 yards, and sometimes as poorly as 12 inch groups.
He says that it is because the bore is mismatched to the bullet size in factory ammunition, but they continued to make them this way despite such reports. He mentions there is no such issue with the Ross sporting rifles chambered in .303 which can be highly accurate.

To put this into context, for all the rifles he mentions throughout the book, a good group was 3.5 inches at 100 yards, and 4 inches was acceptable for a big game rifle. A rifle that shot a 2 inch group in 1918 was especially accurate.

I think it is certain that there have been great strides made in the accuracy of ammunition since then - because I have had many old rifles that shot quite well indeed, so it must have been the poor ammo of the times.

--------------------
If you carry a cat home by the tail you will receive information valuable to you for the rest of your life.
Mark Twain


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2681
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #296740 - 11/03/17 12:12 AM

A 2-inch group at 100 yards with open sights would indeed be especially accurate!

If we are talking scopes, on the other hand, accuracy should be similar to rifles today.
For example, the 105 year old open-sighted Rigby .275 I am playing with at the moment is under 2 MOA with most loads, so long as I can see the target!

At some point I intend to get my .280 Ross shooting, despite the difficulties of making cases and acquiring bullets. Happy to report accuracy on this forum when that eventuates.
Frankly I have difficulty believing the statements above, unless TW's 'factory' ammo was loaded with normal 7mm bullets, in which case his comments are quite understandable!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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CarlsenHighway
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Reged: 19/03/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Port Chalmers, New Zealand
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #296881 - 12/03/17 02:22 PM

He said it was the bullets in factory 280 ammo at the time was not the right size for the bore, unlike the .303 ammo.

In my own experiments I have found no real difference in accuracy between open sights and a 4x scope at 100 yards. With the same rifle I can shoot the same size groups at 100 yards with open sights and a bead as I can with an aperture sight, and also a 4x scope - with appropriate used targets for each. I have tested this with several rifles, most lately just this week.

--------------------
If you carry a cat home by the tail you will receive information valuable to you for the rest of your life.
Mark Twain


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #297004 - 14/03/17 12:47 AM

I believe the biggest difference between than and now is in 100 years of developing nitro powders that burning better than ever.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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FrankFarmer
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Reged: 06/08/06
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Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #297290 - 18/03/17 02:52 PM

The 280 Ross won at Bisley....

The .280 (and the Ross Rifle) won the famous Bisley international matches in 1908, 1912 and 1913 (King's Prize) plus many other prizes in different competitions on both sides of the Atlantic.Two inches at 100, I doubt it.


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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2119
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: Daryl_S]
      #297294 - 18/03/17 03:59 PM

Quote:

As to mis-assassmbly resulting in blowing the bolt out, didn't Ackley say this was impossible - also noted probably due to plugged bores or other indiscretions, but blamed on the rifle itself instead of stupidity?
...................................................
Perhaps the bolt Ackley attempted to get together incorrectly, was a pinned one.



I don't think Ackley ever actually tried or tested this.
From memory, I think he claimed that if it had happened, it must have been rare, and that any reported blow ups with the Ross rifle could have been caused by other means. Or words to that effect.
My soft cover Ackley books disintegrated years ago, and are now just a pile of loose out of order sheets kept in a plastic bag.
Must dig them out one day and try some sort of repair!

Edited by 4seventy (20/03/17 12:05 PM)


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500Boswell
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Reged: 21/07/06
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Loc: Queensland
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #297340 - 19/03/17 10:37 AM

There was a Clint Eastwood Movie, im sure he had one of these, a take down with scope

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: 500Boswell]
      #297341 - 19/03/17 11:21 AM

Google says the movie was "Joe Kidd".

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CarlsenHighway
.300 member


Reged: 19/03/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Port Chalmers, New Zealand
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: FrankFarmer]
      #297375 - 20/03/17 01:41 AM

Quote:

The 280 Ross won at Bisley....

The .280 (and the Ross Rifle) won the famous Bisley international matches in 1908, 1912 and 1913 (King's Prize) plus many other prizes in different competitions on both sides of the Atlantic.Two inches at 100, I doubt it.




They sure did.

But Whelen didn't say the Ross target rifles at Bisley were inaccurate, he wrote that his testing showed Ross sporting rifles shooting 6 - 12 inch groups at 100 yards with factory soft point ammunition, and he explained why.



--------------------
If you carry a cat home by the tail you will receive information valuable to you for the rest of your life.
Mark Twain

Edited by CarlsenHighway (20/03/17 02:18 AM)


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500Boswell
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Reged: 21/07/06
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Loc: Queensland
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #297382 - 20/03/17 08:14 AM

Yes 4 Seventy im sure thats the one, saw it on you tube ,never ever seen it on TV for some reason !

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: 500Boswell]
      #297491 - 21/03/17 07:52 PM

Dorleac have a nice one of these for sale on their site at the moment
http://www.dorleac-dorleac.com/arme/model-of-1910-280-sporting-rifle/

Edited by JabaliHunter (21/03/17 07:54 PM)


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CarlsenHighway
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Reged: 19/03/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Port Chalmers, New Zealand
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #297567 - 22/03/17 08:48 PM

Townsend Whelen from the "The American Rifle" (1918)


"The factory cartridge is an excellent one ballistically, combining a
bullet with a very satisfactory coefficient, and a flat trajectory.
Twenty-eight caliber is theoretically the most effective caliber ballisti-
cally for a rifle, because a bullet with an extremely effective ballastic
coefficient can be used in this caliber without running the recoil up to
such an extent that it is not satisfactory for military purposes. But the
.280 Ross rifle does not seem to handle this cartridge very well. The
accuracy is not good. I have heard of a few rifles which would give 8-
inch groups with this cartridge at 200 yards, but I have personally
never seen one. Two. rifles of this caliber which I have owned would
give about 12-inch groups at 200 yards when shot from my concrete
base muzzle and elbow rest, or prone with either target sights or a
telescope sight. Also Dr. Mann obtained two selected .280 sporting
barrels for testing, and upon placing them on his " V " rest found
that the best groups that they would give average 7 inches at 100
yards. The trouble seems to be in the size of the neck of the cham-
ber and the groove diameter of the barrel. The bullet is .002 inches
smaller than the groove diameter of the barrel, and the chamber is
about .004-inch larger at the neck than the neck of the unfired car-
tridge. As will be seen in the chapter on Accuracy, good shooting can-
not be expected from such an arrangement. It seems a pity that a
more accurate barrel is not obtainable for this excellent cartridge."

(Further)

"Despite the discrepancy between the diameters of barrel and bullet,
and the large chamber, this cartridge (the .280 match cartridge)is very
accurate in Ross long-range match barrels. It seems to be a case where the inertia of the long,
heavy bullet seems to cause prompt upsetting of the bullet to fill the
bore without undue deformation of the bullet. The match barrels are
throated out a little more than the sporting barrels to receive this
cartridge, and this cartridge is so long that it cannot be worked
through the magazine, the match rifle being a single shot only, although
with practically the same action as the sporting rifle. Ross match rifles
for the .280 cartridge are very popular in England for long range
match shooting, and have won many matches with very high scores.
Wind probably has less effect on the flight of this bullet than is the case
with any other cartridge made."


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2681
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #297568 - 23/03/17 12:07 AM

....so the major ammunition companies were obviously too lazy or crazy to manufacture and load the correct diameter bullet? Unbelievable!!

Charles Ross must have been furious about this at the time!

Imagine if Remchester loaded their .303 ammo with .308 bullets today: similar outcome! Probably similar 12-inch groups too I would imagine...

I have no intention of loading or shooting normal 7mm (.284 or .285) bullets in my .280 Ross. It will be .287 or nuthin'...!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 26867
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #297628 - 23/03/17 10:07 PM

Quote:

I have no intention of loading or shooting normal 7mm (.284 or .285) bullets in my .280 Ross. It will be .287 or nuthin'...!




And thanks to Mr McDonald, and one of the world's best bullet makers Woodleigh, you don't have to.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2681
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #305781 - 28/09/17 09:56 AM

Still waiting on reloading dies on back-order for firing-up my example, so to cure the boredom in the meantime I bought another one!

Looks like it may once have had the pop-up peep on the rear bridge, but the guts appear to be long gone from the photos. Otherwise looks pretty nice.

Will post again when it arrives.

...or if my dies arrive first and I can report on ballistics!

Love these things!!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #305803 - 29/09/17 04:55 AM

it seems they are not realy rare in top end of AUS?

its a nice, classic and well made sporting rifle if you have your brain working when assemble the bolt. well, its something you better allways doing when handle guns.

good luck!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1376
Loc: QLd, Australia
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #305880 - 01/10/17 05:31 PM

Another one came up for sale and sold instantly just last week.. I'll never get one

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: Ash]
      #305884 - 01/10/17 08:19 PM

Ash, I think it was Marrakai who got it.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1376
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Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #306162 - 10/10/17 12:04 AM

He bought a scoped one a while back? There was another recently.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: Ash]
      #306166 - 10/10/17 04:43 AM

That's the one I am talking about, he has bought second one.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1376
Loc: QLd, Australia
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #306226 - 11/10/17 01:48 PM

Oh lol, greedy :P

Marrakai, put up some pics

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 84
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: 500Boswell]
      #306236 - 11/10/17 09:08 PM

Quote:

There was a Clint Eastwood Movie, im sure he had one of these, a take down with scope




The film you're thinking of may be 'White Hunter, Black Heart', but if so it was an M1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer.

It's a pretty cool flick, I have it on DVD. The movie is semi biographical in that it was written by Peter Viertel, who as a young writer was on location with the John Houston production of The African Queen. Eastwood's character in White Hunter is based on Houston.

I bought the DVD for the scenes with Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles. Eastwood's character is outfitting for safari at an expensive London salon when he says, "And throw in a couple of these little six point fives, the Mannlichers".

Several scenes show MS takedown rifles being carried and in use.








BR.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

Edited by Rothhammer1 (11/10/17 09:10 PM)


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2681
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #306426 - 14/10/17 09:24 PM

Yeah, sorry Ash, couldn't resist a second .280 Ross!

Just got 2 messages on Friday that I was unfortunately too heavily committed to respond to:
1. the 2nd Ross has arrived at my dealer in Darwin, but I'm still waiting on the PTA...
2. invoice for the .280 Ross dies, they are ready for dispatch from CH4D apparently.

I know what I'll be doing first thing Monday morning!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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lancaster
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Re: Model of 1910 .280 Sporting Rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #306432 - 15/10/17 02:04 AM

the only man happy weekend is over and monday comes

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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