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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3518
Loc: Colorado
Vintage Scope
      #160745 - 20/05/10 01:07 PM

Saw this on EBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...%3D1&_rdc=1


Looks like it could be a Springer mounting system.
I have seen Mannlichers with similar hooks for the rear monting point bun not with the "Vienna" style front mount such as this has.

Just thought I would pass it on...

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: Huvius]
      #160755 - 20/05/10 03:54 PM

Are those mounts "see through" at the bottom when mounted?

I presume it is designed for an M-S?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Kiwi_bloke
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Reged: 03/09/09
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: NitroX]
      #160764 - 20/05/10 07:14 PM

I've seen these referred to as Schnapper mounts. You compress the front 2 legs to remove it, the rear mount arm fits into a stud on the rifle. To effect windage you need to drift the dovetail the front mount clips onto. Now here's the next problem, finding or making a suitable base for the front mount. I've only seen these on Steyr made rifles so I suppose they're the original factory mount for Mannlichers.

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dons
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Reged: 18/08/07
Posts: 431
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: Huvius]
      #160770 - 20/05/10 09:25 PM

This is the classic (Vienna style) Kahles scope and mounts for the early Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles. I have this setup on my MS 03, and is known as a full Austrian rig. The mounts are see-thru and the price is right. The only negative is the single post reticle, 3 post or crosshairs is preferred.

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malco
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Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 76
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: dons]
      #160776 - 20/05/10 11:35 PM

Don--
Can you tell if this setup would work with the mounts on my Oigee-scoped 03? Mine has the dovetail for the Springer mount set in a ring on the rear of the barrel. I'm trying to figure out a way to fit a better scope without altering the gun.
Best,
Malcolm


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dons
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Reged: 18/08/07
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: malco]
      #160790 - 21/05/10 06:11 AM

Malcolm: If you could put up a photo of what you now have, it would be of help.

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malco
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: dons]
      #160795 - 21/05/10 08:36 AM

Hi Don--
Here's a close picture of the existing setup--there are more pictures on the Mannlicher forum in the thread titled "Two uncommon Mannlichers," and I can certainly take and send more. Thanks for your quick reply--
Malcolm



Edited by CptCurl (26/05/10 08:18 PM)


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dons
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Reged: 18/08/07
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: malco]
      #160835 - 22/05/10 08:45 AM

Malcolm: I'm not clear on why you would want to change the Oigee scope. Are there optical problems or cracked lenses? I have the same Oigee on my MS 08 and it's great. The mounting system you have does not appear to be factory, but certainly period done. You will be entering a world of pain and expense trying to refit a different scope.

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malco
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: dons]
      #160842 - 22/05/10 10:57 AM

Hi Don--
Thanks again for getting back to me. My Oigee is undamaged and works reasonably well, although it could stand a good cleaning/resealing (it's really dirty inside). The main dilemmas I have with it are the reticle (a really enormous single picket) and general optical clarity--my ten-year-old likens it to a funhouse mirror, which is a pretty good analogy. But I like to hunt with the gun, and would like to be able to use a more modern optic if possible.

However, I don't want to alter anything permanently because it is for sure a factory mount and scope, which at least in the States is nearly impossible to come by. I'm actually glad you mentioned this, because I've been trying to figure out the original factory mounting options, for my own edification. I have three period ads, all American, that depict factory-offered scopes--two of them (1930 Sequoia Importing and 1939 Stoeger) show scope mounts exactly like mine, with the front pincer mount attached to the rear of the barrel--the Sequoia ad even specifies that the scope is a 4x Oigee. The third ad, a 1929 Abercrombie and Fitch catalog, shows an earlier carbine (round-knob grip) with a mount attached to the front action ring, as on your 1908.

Interestingly, my rifle was sold new through A&F in November, 1929 (it has a 1928 proof code), listed in their ledger as a "1903 with telescope," though obviously it's not the same pattern as the rifle shown in their catalog of the same year. The front base is a sweat-on ring on the rifle barrel stamped with the gun's serial #, in identical font to what appears elsewhere. The rear dogleg mount on the Oigee scope also bears the correct serial #, also in the same font.

I'm really curious to know when Steyr moved the front dovetail from the action ring forward to the barrel; if they did so universally, or only for the American market; and whether they ever used factory claw mounts on the pre-war guns. If you have the answers or even an opinion, I'd love to learn more! Also, if you have the time, could you post a picture of the dovetailed receiver on your 1908? I'd like to see how the factory worked the script around such an example (I've seen a number of retro-fitted claw bases, which obviously resulted in mucked up lettering).

Anyway--I may wind up buying the e-bay scope just on a gamble that the Springer bases might be adaptable to my rifle. If the Kahles has better optics than my Oigee, I could use the whole setup as is (although I think the rear dog-leg will have to be positioned farther back), or possibly mate the bases up to something different down the road. I know, I know--that way lies madness...

Thanks again, and sorry for the windy explanation!
Best,
Malcolm


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dons
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: malco]
      #160845 - 22/05/10 12:24 PM

I would probably choose to refurbish the Oigee thus giving you the option of changing the reticle and save some bucks as well and even more important, keep originality. I think the rifle looks great just the way it is. JMO

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malco
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Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: montana, usa
Re: Vintage Scope [Re: dons]
      #160849 - 22/05/10 01:14 PM

I definitely love the original look--Steyr obviously scaled the scope to the gun--and plan to refurbish the Oigee at some point. I've queried a couple of places, and so far haven't been able to find an outfit willing to take it on, at least not in the U.S. (incl. Parsons). If anyone has a suggestion, I'll sure look into it. Don, have you seen a rifle mounted the way mine is in the UK or Europe? I'm really curious...
Thanks--
Malcolm


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dons
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: malco]
      #160857 - 22/05/10 10:03 PM

Photos of my MS's are still up on the Mannlicher Forum if you care to see them, thread dated 15-12-07. I have not seen another rifle with the exact same mounts as yours. I've seen the barrel ring but with the swing mount. BTW, I'm located in the US.

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malco
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: dons]
      #160869 - 23/05/10 12:01 AM

Oops--I assumed Essex, England. Do you know of a good scope service that might be an option?

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1756
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: malco]
      #160872 - 23/05/10 02:46 AM

Here is the same "Wiener Schnaeppermontage" = Vienna snapper mount factory installed with a Kahles "Heliavier" scope on my M1924 .30-06 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, a "leftover Sequoia model". It also has the same serial number, 299, like the rifle. IMHO these mounts, offered as a factory option by Steyr pre-WW2, were mostly handmade and -fitted, as they all differ in details. So there is little hope to find a scope and tops that exactly fit existing bases.


--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by CptCurl (26/05/10 08:19 PM)


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malco
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Reged: 11/02/09
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: kuduae]
      #160873 - 23/05/10 03:00 AM

Thanks for the picture and input, Kuduae--how often do you encounter this mount in Europe? Any idea when it replaced the dovetailed receiver ring?

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: malco]
      #160880 - 23/05/10 05:48 AM

Here is another such mount and scope for the M-Sch, this time an earlier small 22mm diam. Kahles "Mignon 4x" scope with a nearly complete mount. It still awaits being mounted on my M1900.


About the popularity of the Vienna-style snapper mounts in "Europe": I will never call them "Springer mounts", as Springer's Erben was only one of the many gunsmithes in Austria who fitted these, and those three-legged ones on the M-Sch were certainly not made by Springer!These mounts were quite popular in Austria. You find them not only on Mannlichers, but also on many break-open rifles of Austrian provenance. Germans on the other hand from the start preferred their German scopes mounted by german gunsmithes with their familiar claw mounts. So you rarely encounter M-Sch rifles mounted with Vienna snapper mounts in Germany.In Germany from time to time you encounter side mounts too, the pre-WW1 Greifelt/Suhl one looking exactly like the later American Griffin&Howe.
Though Steyr dovetailed their "factory" bases into a saddle soldered on the barrel shank, many individual gunsmithes cut the dovetails for upto 4x scopes directly into the receiver ring, both for snapper or claw mounts. They continued to do so until about 1960.Others used saddles soldered either over the receiver ring or the barrel, so the kind of scope mounting is completely unsuitable for dating!

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by CptCurl (26/05/10 08:19 PM)


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kuduae
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: kuduae]
      #160882 - 23/05/10 06:16 AM

BTW Dons, I have never seen the post-WW2 Steyr side-swing mount on a Mannlicher-Schoenauer in Germany! Other, ocourse, the even later swing mount for the plastic magazine so-called Steyr-Mannlicher. I don't rmember the correct designation for these rifles, as I don't care.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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Kapu
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Reged: 12/03/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Finland
Re: Vintage Scope [Re: kuduae]
      #161078 - 27/05/10 07:27 PM

one more on the row. My M-S with similar mounting, at this time fitted with W. Gerard scope



Edited by CptCurl (27/05/10 08:56 PM)


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malco
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Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 76
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: Kapu]
      #161092 - 27/05/10 11:27 PM

Hi Kapu--
Thanks for posting. I went ahead and offered $150 U.S. to the seller of the Kahles scope that prompted this thread, and to my surprise he accepted--so I guess I'll get the chance to see whether it will mate to my rifle or not, and with what degree of effort. I'll update as I know more--
Best,
Malcolm


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malco
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Reged: 11/02/09
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: malco]
      #162913 - 28/06/10 02:48 PM

Okay, finally got the Kahles through customs (stalled in NY for 3 weeks). Good news: the optics are much, much better than those on the original Oigee.

And for the bad: there's no way this scope will work on my rifle by trying to mate its existing mounts up to the existing bases. The trouble is eye-relief--the Kahles is a dainty little scope, and it's got to be positioned just-so--the front pincer was clearly mounted originally to the receiver ring, which would put the ocular far enough back to work. Move it ahead of the receiver, and no dice.
Now I understand those offset mounts like Kuduae has on the scope for his M1900...

So back to square one. The amazing clarity of this 1930-vintage Kahles makes me wonder if the Oigee doesn't simply have a problem that might be fixed by refurbishing--my experience with scopes of this era is limited is to the two I have in hand. Dons, if you read this, what's your Oigee like for clarity? Mine is really fish-eyed, with this crazy distortion around the perimeter. Is this typical, or indicative of a problem? If anyone has any insight, please help! Also, recommendations for a scope doctor (Parsons already bowed out) would be greatly appreciated...

Best,
Malcolm


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dons
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Reged: 18/08/07
Posts: 431
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: malco]
      #162926 - 28/06/10 09:18 PM

In my collection I have 15 period scoped rifles that included Kahles, Oigee, Zeiss, and Hensoldt. The Oigee is equal to any of these. The fisheye you describe leads me to believe that one of the small internal lenses is incorrectly installed. It may have been taken apart at some point in it's history and not put back together the right way. I don't know who is currently refurbishing these vintage scopes.

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kuduae
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: malco]
      #162928 - 28/06/10 10:39 PM

Quote:

If anyone has any insight, please help! Also, recommendations for a scope doctor (Parsons already bowed out) would be greatly appreciated...

Best,
Malcolm



Hi Malco,
Try to contact Schmidt & Bender, www.schmidtbender.com info@schmidtbender.com . Perhaps they can arrange to have your scope repaired here in Germany. At least here they are sometimes doing such things.


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malco
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: kuduae]
      #162933 - 28/06/10 11:07 PM

Thanks for the replies--apparently there's a guy about two hours north of me in Montana who does repairs for Deutsche Optik. His business is called Mountain Optics. I'm going to see if he can fix/service the scope, and possibly install a different reticle to replace the oversized picket. I like the reticle in the Kahles, maybe I'll try to have him duplicate that. I'll update as I learn more, and remain open to suggestions!

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malco
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Reged: 11/02/09
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: malco]
      #168040 - 20/09/10 01:39 AM

Okay, at long last an update. Got the original Oigee back from Mountain Optics. The scope had indeed been taken apart at some foggy point in the past, and the lenses were re-installed backwards, hence the fisheye. The original crosshairs were hacked out, and the single picket installed. Mountain Optics completely overhauled the scope, cleaned and revamped the focus and elevation adjustments, and installed a new set of wire crosshairs. Everything now seems optically and mechanically correct, with normal clarity through the lenses. The crosshairs are slightly cockeyed, though in fairness Dan at MO told me that the original reticle was pretty crudely extracted and that it might be tough to achieve perfection as a result. I'm going to try to sight in and shoot today, and will post a range report--thanks to everyone for advice and insight, I love this website!

Best,
Malcolm


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heers68
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Reged: 11/04/08
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Re: Vintage Scope [Re: malco]
      #177234 - 17/03/11 01:00 AM

Malcolm, Very interesting thread,can't wait to hear an update on your range experience! I have had many different Prewar German scopes on different rifles(Zeiss,M.S.W Wetzlar,Hensoldt,etc.) and have been impressed with there optics,better than some of my "modern" scopes! I have allways wanted a pre-war MS and will continue searching for the "right" one (with correct scope and mounts) not easy! Kevin.

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