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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #201084 - 30/01/12 09:35 AM

Very interesting project. I have been toying with a similar wildcat I call the .405 Grenadier. It is based on the 7.62x54R case and topped with 300gr .411 diameter bullet. It was designed for the Marlin 1895 rifle. I had a Marlin rebarreled for the cartridge and it works out fine but I think it will do even better in a bolt rifle. I recently acquired a Siamese mauser and will be having it modified to test my theory.

This is the 7.62 next to the .405 Grenadier



This is the 45-70 next to the .405 Grenadier


By the way, the easiest way I have found to make cases is by just firing 7.62x54R cartridges in the .405 Grenadier rifle - fire forming.

Now, as to why I mention this here. I believe the .405 Grenadier would be a perfect cartridge for a modified Mosin Nagant. The extra magazine length would allow the use of 400gr Woodleigh bullets. I have the reamer and.......

--------------------
~

Edited by CptCurl (12/03/12 09:41 PM)


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #201146 - 30/01/12 08:17 PM

Quote:

"should I reduce the thickness of the cap for maybe the half?"

I would take away about 2 mm. In my eyes the buttplate seems to be a little bit too small. Maybe you will modify the butt end ?




optical illusion




thinking its better now



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (12/03/12 09:48 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Grenadier]
      #201147 - 30/01/12 08:19 PM

grenadier, do you get 405 win ballistik with your wildcat?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Cashman
.224 member


Reged: 21/01/12
Posts: 25
Loc: Finland
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #201160 - 30/01/12 10:46 PM

Quote:

grenadier, do you get 405 win ballistik with your wildcat?




I would guess that the .405 Grenadier is at least as potent, if not even more so, than the .405Winchester. The 7,62x54R cartridge withstands a lot more pressure than the .405 Win and I reckon that this compensates for the much shorter case. Correct me if I´m wrong.

Congratulations on a very good choice of name for your wildcat!!


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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #201177 - 31/01/12 02:00 AM

The .405 Grenadier is still being explored. Only preliminary individually "hand-made" loads have been fired. I am waiting for the custom reloading dies before I get serious about working it up fully. In the Marlin rifle I expect to get a little over 90% of the velocity of the .405 Winchester cartridge. I am expecting 2000fps +/- with the 300gr Hornady. As I get it fleshed out I will post on a separate thread.

However, higher velocities would be obtainable in a bolt rifle like the Siamese, Mosin-Nagant, or Lee Enfield. In a strong bolt action I think you could get velocities that would be on the heels of the 450-400 NE. As pointed out above, the 7.62x54R is a 390 MPa (57,000 psi) cartridge. A bolt rifle will allow for a greater overall cartridge length and allow the use of 400gr bullets.

The .405 Grenadier was developed for the Marlin 1895. It has some real advantages over the .45-70 cartridge in that rifle but I will save addressing those for another time. Just let me say that once I started playing with the .405 Grenadier I realized it would only reach its true potential in a bolt rifle. As mentioned, I have acquired a Siamese Mauser. After I get some dies and work up loads for the Marlin, I will turn to the Siamese.

Meanwhile, if someone wants to try the cartridge out in a Mosin-Nagant, I am open to loaning the reamer out. The only concern I have is that it might go to a beginner who buggers it up so I have to order another. Bearing that in mind, I will freely lend it out so long as it comes back to me within a reasonable time and in good condition. If there is a member who is serious about trying it out in a Nagant then send me a PM (personal message). I would love to see a Mosin-Nagant sporter in this cartridge.


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Cashman
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Reged: 21/01/12
Posts: 25
Loc: Finland
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Grenadier]
      #201184 - 31/01/12 03:14 AM

Haven´t decided yet but my next Mosin project might be a .375x52R. There are still plenty of old .375 barrels around that Valmet made for the 412S double rifle. They were intended for the USA market as 375 Winchester, but since Valmet got in financial trouble, the plans never came true. Jyri Jalonen, a well known gunsmith in Finland, has made some Valmet 412S´s in this caliber. At least he would have a reamer for it. It only seems natural to make a Mosin in this caliber as well as any based on the 7,62x54R.

The .405 Grenadier would otherwise be a good prospect, but bullets for the .405 (10,45mm) are hard to come by in Finland.


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1756
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #201211 - 31/01/12 07:08 AM

Why reinvent the wheel? In GUN DIGEST 2000, page 106, Janne Pohojoispää published an article "Children of the 7.62x54R". Besides the more familiar (in Finland)5.7x53R, 6.3x53R, 7x53R, 8.2x53R and 9.3x53R he lists a 9x53R Urheiluase of Helsinki, a .375x52R by Jyri Jalonen to use .375 Winchester barrels for the Valmet, a .416x53R by Pekka Helenius and finally a 11.6x55R, a .458" cartridge on Sako case blanks. Both the .375 and the .416 versions feature an improved shape with a longer powder space and a shorter neck, the .375 resembling the 9.3x53R Swiss case somehow.

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Bokmal
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Reged: 10/02/09
Posts: 81
Loc: SW Finland
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #201213 - 31/01/12 07:12 AM

Quote:

Why reinvent the wheel?



Why not? Why let somebody else have all the fun..?

--------------------
Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad...


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Cashman
.224 member


Reged: 21/01/12
Posts: 25
Loc: Finland
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #201219 - 31/01/12 08:14 AM

Quote:

Why reinvent the wheel?




If the best invention man ever made is the wheel, then the second best must be the spare wheel..!

Who said anything about inventing something new? Isn´t the most common way to invent new things, to copy someone else´s work and renaming it and then claiming it your own! The .405 Grenadier might be the first newcomer in a long time, if someone was to make a Mosin in that caliber. As far as I know, nobody (over here in Finland) has made a Mosin in the .375x52R caliber either. And THAT is what we are talking about… Right? At least I am...

Yes I know the topic is ”The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history”… the world is quite a big place and history has a tendency to repeat itself… Well then why shouldn´t we “Mosinistas”?


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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #201227 - 31/01/12 09:51 AM

Quote:

Why reinvent the wheel?




Nothing was reinvented. I was familiar with, and considered, those cartridges for use in the Marlin rifle. I went with the .405 (.411") instead of .416" because of the limited overall length restrictions of the Marlin. Bullets available in .416 are 400gr and they are too long for the Marlin rifle. But the 300gr .411" bullets made for the .405 Winchester were a perfect fit, to include the location of the bullet's cannelure ring. It was necessity that drove me to use .411" instead of .416".

I am already down the road with the Marlin. Now, here I am with a reamer, a pile of .411" bullets, and a Siamese Mauser. For me the next road to take is clear. Perhaps a Mosin is down the next road after that one.

--------------------
~


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #201231 - 31/01/12 10:46 AM

Quote:

Why reinvent the wheel? In GUN DIGEST 2000, page 106, Janne Pohojoispää published an article "Children of the 7.62x54R". Besides the more familiar (in Finland)5.7x53R, 6.3x53R, 7x53R, 8.2x53R and 9.3x53R he lists a 9x53R Urheiluase of Helsinki, a .375x52R by Jyri Jalonen to use .375 Winchester barrels for the Valmet, a .416x53R by Pekka Helenius and finally a 11.6x55R, a .458" cartridge on Sako case blanks. Both the .375 and the .416 versions feature an improved shape with a longer powder space and a shorter neck, the .375 resembling the 9.3x53R Swiss case somehow.




AH-HA! no .475's nor .50's!!!!!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Cashman
.224 member


Reged: 21/01/12
Posts: 25
Loc: Finland
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Grenadier]
      #201261 - 31/01/12 05:43 PM

Quote:

I went with the .405 (.411") instead of .416" because of the limited overall length restrictions of the Marlin. Bullets available in .416 are 400gr and they are too long for the Marlin rifle. But the 300gr .411" bullets made for the .405 Winchester were a perfect fit, to include the location of the bullet's cannelure ring. It was necessity that drove me to use .411" instead of .416".




This is one of the reasons why I decided on the Mosin Nagant as my project. You can fit a much longer cartridge in the magazine box and not always have to seat the bullet down to the crimp groove. This way you leave more room for gunpowder. You can also play with the COL. and use slower burning powders.


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Igorrock
.400 member


Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1635
Loc: Finland
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #201304 - 01/02/12 04:07 AM

If you do Mosin .375x53R, its very usefull to find somewhere bullets which are made for .375 Win -ammo. Such bullet opens easier and are shorter than those for .375 H&H etc.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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Cashman
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Reged: 21/01/12
Posts: 25
Loc: Finland
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #201306 - 01/02/12 04:36 AM

Yes you´re right, but .375 is a quite a common caliber even here, at least when comparing with the .405. I might also make a .338x53R. Living here in Sako-country, one can´t help stumbling over bullets in .338…

But right now I´m saving money for a totally different project, involving a Baikal over-under shotgun and a .308 Win barrel I have lying around..


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Igorrock
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Reged: 01/03/07
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #201338 - 01/02/12 07:27 PM

I think Baikal IZH-94 is quite cheap to buy....but maybe you want the bullet in over pipe.

http://www.sissos.fi/tuote/baikal-izh-94-%28baikal-ij-94%29-taiga-sis-stoppariura-12-308/3020000003/

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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Cashman
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Reged: 21/01/12
Posts: 25
Loc: Finland
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #201367 - 01/02/12 11:59 PM

Yes Sir I know that they are cheap, but you´re missing the point. It wouldn´t be “self made” and besides, I want one in 30-30Win. You are talking to the certified DIY guy now… The whole idea is to be able to use one gun as a double shotgun or a combo with just an “insert” barrel, with just a fraction of the prize of an IZH-94 with both double shotgun barrels and a combo barrel.

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DarylS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #201404 - 02/02/12 03:52 AM

The .375" Hornady 225gr.SP is an excellent bullet over quite a range of velocities. The nose is fairly soft, pointed for a flatter trajectory, yet the bullet shank is expressly thick, ie: 1/16". We'd have no problem using them here for moose and elk - or for longer range deer shooting.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Cashman
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Reged: 21/01/12
Posts: 25
Loc: Finland
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: DarylS]
      #201841 - 07/02/12 05:14 AM

If there are any left handed Mosin enthusiast, I happened to find an old re-barreled or re-bored Finnish Mosin. It was in the caliber 9,3x53R and in pretty good shape. I have plans for all the other parts but the stock, since I´m right handed myself.

A few pics:






It´s a Finnish army competition stock and not so rare except for it being left handed of course. It has a fancy Finnish name, which I don´t know how to translate, so please Bokmal or Igorrock educate me, if you find an English word for “vapaakiväärin tukki”.

What I´ll do with the rest of the rifle, I don´t know yet, but I ordered a reamer for a wildcat named 9,3mm Short Magnum. This is, in its simplicity, a .350 Remington Magnum (or 6,5mm Rem Mag) that has been fitted with a 9,3mm bullet. The idea is to make a new chamber in this already 9,3mm barrel, to fit this wildcat. Time will tell what becomes of it though…

Edited by CptCurl (12/03/12 10:01 PM)


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Igorrock
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Reged: 01/03/07
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #201850 - 07/02/12 07:47 AM

Quote:

It has a fancy Finnish name, which I don´t know how to translate, so please Bokmal or Igorrock educate me, if you find an English word for “vapaakiväärin tukki”.



This rifle is a model for 300 metre rifle three positions which was in Olympics between 1900-1972. So the correct term is just a Free rifle.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #201906 - 08/02/12 12:21 AM

I visit Mister Chamber Reamer because the claw mount was ready and here are first pics. it looks like my project makes some progress. the gunmaker told me it was an interesting experience to make the claw mount but generally no fun.


















now when the scope is ready the bolt will be extent and bend
here with my Husqvarna in 9,3x57 that will also go to a specialist for bending the bolt a little bit more for the scope.



I hope it will be a nice pair one day.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (12/03/12 09:50 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #201907 - 08/02/12 12:28 AM

to my own surprise the gunmaker hade a Mauser in 9x57 in the workshop. a simple but very, very slender rifle made from Franz Kettner in Suhl. not to confuse with the well known Eduard Kettner Köln und Suhl. But I have no doubt that Franz and Eduard were related to each other.
the hunter now own it got the rifle with other's from an inheritance and did not know what do because 8x57IS clearly dont fit. never heard of a 9x57 and thats all common.
a forgotten round









very rare to find a 9x57, a 9,3x57 and 9,3x53R same time in a shop here

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (12/03/12 09:54 PM)


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #201928 - 08/02/12 04:34 AM



I really like the way that Mosin is coming along. It looks great. I'd never considered one as a sporting rifle before- I've now changed my mind. They are very reasonably priced at Tradeexcanada - SO - which is better, octagonal action/barrel or round? I even thinkg there's a barrel maker in Alberta who will bore and re-rifle. A 9.5 would be about right!

Tradeexcanada usually has a few 9x57's with lots of 9.3x57's and 9.3x62's in stock - all Huskys.

My next step is to pick up a 9x57 to match the 9.3x57 I bought from them 3 years ago. The M96 9.3x57 and M98 Oberdorf 9.3x62 have both taken moose. It would be nice to shoot a moose with a 'new-to-me' 9x57 Husky next fall with a 250gr. Hornady, about 2,300/2,350fps - quite easy for the M98 action.

A 9.5x57 would be nice to have, but will have to make it up myself.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: DarylS]
      #201942 - 08/02/12 06:17 AM

yes, must say that's not bad. I have the feeling that something remarkable could be formed here.

the hex receiver have more charakter! if you wish to build a mosin sporter.
a .375x53R would be a good idea and our finish members can probably showing such cartridges. I believe its the biggest diameter you could rebore an original barrel. be warned about a claw mount, I have payed 300 euro for this and deliver 3 from 5 parts. the gunmaker make a socket for the hex receiver and a new rear feet from scratch for this rifle. and I dont believe you get such work for such price anywhere.
EAW makes a side mount also for mosin that I would consider being correct.


10-15 years ago I looked at anything not be a Mauser 98 down as being obscure. time have change this but I believe it start one day on a gunshow when I had a Mannlicher M 92 sporting rifle in my hands the first time.


I was wondering about your statement that Husqvarna was making 9x57 Mauser sporter and the website shows only german made M 98 in 9x57
http://www.shop.tradeexcanada.com/produits/95?page=11

the price is a steal for what you get

the Franz Kettner rifle was excellent build, to bad I dont make a pic side by side with the husqvarna. my feeling now some hours later is that it was only half as much of the swede.

the 9,5x56 Mannlicher Schönauer is easy to build into a M 98 action

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (08/02/12 06:22 AM)


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Bokmal
.275 member


Reged: 10/02/09
Posts: 81
Loc: SW Finland
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #201945 - 08/02/12 06:53 AM

Quote:

I have the feeling that something remarkable could be formed here.



I have followed this project since the beginning, and having seen your recent pictures, I cannot help but feel the same!

And a little, little bit of jealousy, because my project is not moving forward...

--------------------
Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad...


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Cashman
.224 member


Reged: 21/01/12
Posts: 25
Loc: Finland
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #201946 - 08/02/12 07:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have the feeling that something remarkable could be formed here.



I have followed this project since the beginning, and having seen your recent pictures, I cannot help but feel the same!




I´d have to agree. Especially the stock, is in my mind, a very good find. The lines of it are something that my eyes really rest on.


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