Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: winchester 95 9,3x53R

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> 'Classic' Firearms Photos & Archive

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
winchester 95 9,3x53R
      #133570 - 26/04/09 08:42 PM

sometimes collectors have a real good day like a german collector had have in finnland. a fine winchester 95 in 9,3x53R ex military sporter


anyone with a 9,3x57 mauser will love it because the finisch 9,3x53R is a ballistical twin. such a nice finish sporter will be on my "to do" list now.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (15/05/09 09:08 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #133584 - 27/04/09 12:51 AM

Fantastic!!

I have read about these {and of course the more common Mosin-Nagant rebuilds but have yet to actually see one "in the flesh"}.

Surely there can be no gun with a more interesting history than these.

From Winchester plant to Czarist Russian armies, to the "new" state of Finland, to the pursuit of hirvi...wonderful!

Many do not know that this model 95 was the most commonly produced Model 95 made. 7.62x53R/7.62x54R was the most common caliber made in the 95!

Thanks for posting!

Below are some rounds for comparison. 7.62x53R is the Finnish designation for the 7.62x54R.

Left-to-Right:

1] .303 British {for our UK/Canuck/Aussie/NZ contingent }

2] 7.62x53R

3] 8,2x53R {the "Moose Law" round}

4] .33 Winchester

5] 9,3x53R

6] 9,3x57

7] 9,3x62



--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by CptCurl (15/05/09 09:09 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #133596 - 27/04/09 03:12 AM

Lancaster,

Is the Finnish round similar to the Russian Medved round? It would be interesting to find out if these rifles were converted in Finland or in Russia . . .

I lived in Russia for a while during the 90s and while I do have friends who hunt, I never got to see one of these. Yes, a prize catch, for sure!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: 9.3x57]
      #133602 - 27/04/09 04:42 AM

9,3x57, I was thinking about you when posting this, the winchester is 100 km from me so I hope to get the chance to shoot it once in future.
there is a mosin in 9,3x53R, that wasnt sold on egun last week, 200 -250 euro. I have my own plans but be in contact with the owner of this rifle. its a simple common finish sporter, common if you get them! if you or another one have interest...






new german proof in 2006

the russian 9,3x53R is a copy of the finish original. surprising the russians use .365 diameter and ligther bullets with lower velocity/pressure but its safe to fire finish lapua 9,3x53R factory rounds in russian mosins. it seems to be that the use of finish ammo in selfloading rifles( dragunov system)is a problem.
the russian round is so far not available outside of russia and the copper plated steal case ammois not cheap if you compare with handloads. finish lapua brass in 9,3x53R cost 16,90 euro for 20, not bad if you have to pay 24,60 euro for 20 norma 9,3x57 cases.
the ch4d die set cost 55 euro without shell holder and 7,62x54r brass forms without problems.
its all simple and great like for the swedish round. and the 9,3x53r have a 3000 bar service pressure when the 9,3x57 have only 2600 bar because of the weaker M 96 mauser action.






finish brass case and russian copper plated steal case round

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (15/05/09 09:11 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #133604 - 27/04/09 04:45 AM

Quote:

Lancaster,

Is the Finnish round similar to the Russian Medved round? It would be interesting to find out if these rifles were converted in Finland or in Russia . . .




Mehul, good question; I have seen the Medved round listed as "9x54R" or "9x53R" but have read that the bullet is actually 9.3 caliber {.366}. I have never seen a Russky 9x53R round.

Lancaster???

As far as this rifle and chambering are concerned, I don't think you'll find any/many in Russia. This rifle/chambering is almost exclusively Finnish. I have read some disagreement as to whether most of the Russian contract 95's went to Finland, but certainly a large number did. Finland was, in 1916, still ruled by the Czar and some have noted that Finnish army units were armed with the 95's and received the lion's share of the shipments which numbered over 100,000 in toto. Alot were consumed in the period 1917-1922 also from what I have read.

The one pictured here is a really nice one.

The round is, as noted, the spittin' image, ballistically-speaking, of the 9.3x57, which is to say it is an excellent round.

BTW: My SAKO rounds pictured were given to me by Henri Paasikivi, the President of SAKO in the '80's, with whom I corresponded.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: 9.3x57]
      #133605 - 27/04/09 04:52 AM

Lancaster, are you in Germany?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: 9.3x57]
      #133625 - 27/04/09 10:52 AM

unfortunately yes, but its maybe possible
there is no logical reason why the russian call it 9x53R, maybe the same why the the 9mm makarov have a .364 bullet diameter. the two rounds are in fact the same.the russian bullet measure .365 and is not so hot like the finish.

Edited by lancaster (27/04/09 10:53 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 147
Loc: Finland
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #133700 - 28/04/09 05:00 AM

Allow me to make a small contribution to this, please.
Incidentally, in the latest issue of the "Kaliberi" weapons journal, there was an article about the model 1895 in which I take a keen interest.

About the 9,3mm caliber:
In the 50's and after WWII, civilians were not allowed to own rifles in military caliber.
The most common weapons probably were the Mosin-Nagant and its derivatives, and certainly the Win was never a rarity. Some confusion may have been caused by the Finnish nomination "Vintovka" to describe various weapons especially around the time of Finland gaining its independence in 1917.
However, the most common caliber was the 7,62x53R (I'll use the Finnish nomination, OK?) which was the military round of the Russian army and which also became the Finnish standard until effectively 1962 when the m/62 assault rifle (Valmet) in 7,62x39 was introduced. Even after this, the old rimmed round has seen service and still sees today in both sniper rifles (rifle m/85) and the "new" light machine gun PKM which replaced the old Finnish made m/62 (incidentally the same model year designation as the assault rifle) in 7,62x39. The newer sniper rifles are chambered in .308 Win and .338 Lapua Magnum, and also we have the .50 BMG but it's rather a rarity.
Also after the war the law dictated that for moose the minimum caliber was 8mm, ref. 9,3x57's "Moose law round" nomination.
The easiest way to obtain decent hunting rifles in a poor country was to convert the existing rifles to shoot a larger-diameter bullet. The 8mm and 9,3mm were chosen due to good availability: the 8,2mm is .323" in diameter, i.e. the same as the German 8mm Mauser, and the 9,3mm is also a common enough German caliber so the choices were rather logical.
I have also heard of, although never seen, 7mm and 6,5mm conversions of the same.
The topic came up in another thread, and then I learned that the Russian 9x53R is NOT the same as the Finnish one. I believe the Russian one in practice runs on lower pressures although the CIP max. is the same for both. Looking at the cartridge drawings the differences are minimal. The principal difference is the overall length which for the Finnish variant is 76mm and for the Russian 67mm.
The bullet diameters are quoted as 9,3mm and 9,27mm, respectively.
The current official CIP pressure is 3400 bar (PTMax) for both, as well as for the 8,2mm.
For comparison, the 7,62 PTMax is 3900 bar - whence the difference is beyond me.
The CIP table does not quote pressures for the smaller bullets suggesting they are rare, indeed.
The 9,3mm variant was as far as I know never as popular as the 8,2mm - probably due to the bullet been seen as "too large" (?) and also the 8mm doing a dandy job. The 9,3mm has always had a reputation of hefty recoil. I doubt if many have ever actually fired one; my guess would be the impression of the 9,3mm as "a large caliber". One would also assume bullet availability has played a role in the 8,2mm becoming more popular.
The 9,3mm was typically loaded with the 255grs bullet which is light for the caliber, and at low velocities. The case capacity of the x53R v. the German 9,3x57R is negligeble so most likely the same load data could be used - given that the CIP max for the 9x57 and 9x57R is 2800 bar, we are for sure on the safe side. CIP does not quote pressures for the 9,3x57 and x57R, I'm afraid. This also gave the 9,3mm a bad name, as the trajectory for sure is arcing!
V0 for the Sako load is given as 669m/s, i.e. 2195 fps.
I have not been able to track down actual load data, but I seem to recollect the last Lapua loads used an unnecessarily soft bullet. Sako's factory loads were the last ones but even this load was discontinued some years ago. It can still be found in the gun shops, though. This used the Gamehead bullet rather than the Hammerhead making it a tad too soft for moose.
For the handloader this is of course still a viable option, but otherwise it is in the words of Boddington "a dead duck".
We'll probably also see the demise of the 8,2mm soon. Sako no longer loads the 8g (127grs) FMJ bullet, and being owned by Beretta they're in the business of making money, not to keep obsolete calibers going. Which does not make it a bad choice either, as there are plenty of 8mm bullets on the market.
One of the problems with both of these are that they're so-called "semi-wildcats" or "factory wildcats", as they have only ever been known in Finland and loaded for this market by the domestic makers only. Thus, there is little load data but as said: the data from the similarish German calibers can be borrowed (without taking a standpoint to the viability NOR safety of this option, as I'm no handloader!).

About the guns in Finland:
There are plenty of rumors around these rifles, partly a confusion caused by the aforementioned misnomination of rifles in general.
According to the State Inventory of 1919, the total number of rifles run to 200 000 units. There were 3611 Winchester rifles - hardly the "majority" of the Russian contract rifles!
However, there are still rumors of a couple of train wagons full of 1895 Winchesters being delivered to Helsinki, the capital. I sure would like to get my hands on that consignment!!!
The total number of rifles supplied to the czar's army was close 300 000 units (according to the Winchester m/ 1895 manual). According to the mentioned article, 100 000 rifles were ordered in 1914, and 200 000 more in 1915 (the text is a bit vague, this later lot may have been ordered later). The shipment of these was canceled by Winchester before completion due to the revolution as payment was jeopardized. Some claim no rifles were paid for, but considering two lots being ordered, the first one for sure must have been paid for.
Some rifles have for sure later found their way to Finland, and the inventory did of course only include the rifles in the government's books. Given the population of Finland in 1917 being 3,2 million, there cannot have been many thousands of Winchester rifles lying around, I think. And at least not the majority of the weapons shipped!
Alas, I do not have any statistics as to the private ownership although those guns have always been well registered. Having said that, a couple of thousand of illegal weapons are turned in to the police annually, and the years after gaining independence and after WWII were turbulent, indeed. Thus, the number of illegal i.e. unregistered weapons especially in the countryside will for ever remain a mystery.
For comparison, today there are some 2 million registered firearms in Finland and the population is approx. 5,3 million.
However, I think these figures prove wrong the belief that the troops based in Finland were armed with the Winchesters - at least not exclusively. Of course some troops along the "border" (there was no real border as until independence Finland was an autonomous state of Russia) may have been so armed as "secondary" troops, but of this I have no proof. It would explain the belief of the rifles being supplied to the troops based in Finland. One could of course check the number of Russian troops in Finland at the time. I doubt the figure was many many thousands. You see, the garrisons then built could not have housed that many troops, and the garrisons are well kept or at least their locations are known, so if, say, 150 000 rifles would have been delivered here then the number of troops would have been quite exorbitant. So I simply cannot buy this.
The last rifles were take off the Finnish army's inventory in 1951 when there still were 41 Winchesters in the books - only 4 of these serviceable. Thus ended this chapter of the military use of the Winchester model 1895.

Finally:
Mr. 9,3x57, that's an impressive collection!!!
(Although photo "only"!!!!) Love it.

I really like the model 1895, and I'm having mine modified. I know: one should keep it original, but as the barrel's already been cut, the stock modified, the caliber not being original and the original sights together with the "ears" for the cartridge clip lost I think this is not a salvation project anymore.
I'll have the sights re-done once more, the stock re-done to fit me better (I shall store the old rear stock, as it's still original), and convert it to take-down.
Then it'll still see some more service. After all, it's only 90 years old. A rifle in it's best age, no?

- Lars/Finland

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

Edited by Schauckis (28/04/09 05:23 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: Schauckis]
      #133727 - 28/04/09 08:23 AM

Lars, thanks very much for the very interesting information.

Your logic about the number of 95's possible in Finland seems right. I wonder if you are correct about the issue of 95's in the border areas. The Czarist Armies were issued many different rifles, and it would make sense that they would be issued to units in a single theater, or region in order to minimize logistical problems.

I wonder why the 3611 95's were in Finland, that is, what units were issued them, or...did they merely wind up in Finland after the breakup of the Empire?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: 9.3x57]
      #133746 - 28/04/09 03:48 PM

I only know one official loading data fom Kemira, now Vithavouri/Finnland


and this is enough for me to believe that any load safe in a swedisch M 46 in 9,3x57 is also safe in a mosin in 9,3x53R. take a look, kemira give the same load for the cartridges, only 0,2grain N 140 more in the 9,3x53R giving 20 meter per second more. the moose wont tell you the difference!
but the main point is the service pessure: 2600 bar for the x57 and 3000 bar for the x53R. this is understandable because the mosin action is in fact a very strong design. remeber that austria rechamber mosin rifles in WW 1 for the 8x50r mannlicher round and fire .323 bullets in a .311 barel.

I have no doubt about it that the finish designer make the x53R after the well known 9,3x57 from their swedish neighbours. funny that the birth date is unknown like for the swedish cartridge.
the russian must have adopt the x53R very early, I have seen pics at least of two high quality double rifles made in soviet times over the years.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (15/05/09 09:11 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 147
Loc: Finland
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: 9.3x57]
      #133750 - 28/04/09 06:01 PM

Quote:

I wonder if you are correct about the issue of 95's in the border areas. The Czarist Armies were issued many different rifles, and it would make sense that they would be issued to units in a single theater, or region in order to minimize logistical problems.




I wonder, too....
As said: my thinking only, but it would support the common understanding that the troops in Finland would have been issued Winchesters.
Also it supports your thought about the logistics with which I definitely agree. When looking at service routes (and especially in those days), it would have made sense to have the border troops (let's call them border troops even though there was no border...) issued with the same rifles as the ones in Finland.
Additionally, many of these rifles are encountered in Karelia i.e. Western Russia bordering to Finland which again supports this thinking.

Quote:

I wonder why the 3611 95's were in Finland, that is, what units were issued them, or...did they merely wind up in Finland after the breakup of the Empire?




Small country...
The article states (my translation):
"The balance was 220 000 weapons. This included Mosin-Nagants, Berdan rifles, German Mausers, Swedish Mausers, Japanese rifles as well as the Winchesters. In the inventory of 1st Feb 1919 there were 3611 Winchesters. Of these, the military had 1031 and "other authorities" (the police and customs?) had 2580 of the model 1895."
As you can see, no accurate info about the types of troops so supplied. Besides the police and customs the border troops likely will have had Winchesters; the article author also does not know and hence his question mark. I don't know if the border troops at that time were part of the military, although I presume so. Today, the border troops act under the Ministry on Interior, like the police; although the organization is rather military-like, and you can even do your military service in the border troops.
In Finnish history, WWII is divided into various time periods. During the peace period (time period between the Winter War and Continuance War) in June of 1940 the military books held 1697 Winchester rifles.
As can be seen, some weapons had been taken from the "other authorities" in the use of the Army.
The main weapon at that time was the Mosin-Nagant based "Pystykorva", model 1939 if my memory serves me correct; I have never really taken a keen interest in this model, I'm sorry to say.

The quote above also gives you an indication of the various weapons that had found their way to the young nation's arsenal. Mostly, weapons were obtained from Sweden - quite a few of the Swedish Mausers m/96 were shipped here. My brother recently obtained one. I would have posted pics had I not lost all of my photos in a recent computer transition. I'll shoot some more and post.
The long traditions and connections to Germany also ensured a good supply of various other Mauser rifles.
Why the Japanese Mauser? Dunno! Perhaps also these had been issued to the border-land's secondary troops after the Russo-Japanese war?
Lots of weapons were imported from various sources during the 1918 civil war, and then you couldn't bee too picky about what you got. The Soviet Union for sure supplied the "reds" with weapons, and that many of those were Winchesters I think is likely. It would also partly explain the "Vintovka" nomination, i.e. that the Soviet rifles were associated with or as Winchesters.

A big thanks to Lancaster for starting this highly stimulating thread!

- Lars

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 147
Loc: Finland
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #133752 - 28/04/09 06:09 PM

Quote:

I only know one official loading data fom Kemira, now Vithavouri/Finnland




I also know of no other.

Quote:

and this is enough for me to believe that any load safe in a swedisch M 46 in 9,3x57 is also safe in a mosin in 9,3x53R. take a look, kemira give the same load for the cartridges, only 0,2grain N 140 more in the 9,3x53R giving 20 meter per second more. the moose wont tell you the difference!




Agree...
The table is very small: is the V0 quoted as 675m/s, please, Lancaster?

Quote:

but the main point is the service pessure: 2600 bar for the x57 and 3000 bar for the x53R. this is understandable because the mosin action is in fact a very strong design. remeber that austria rechamber mosin rifles in WW 1 for the 8x50r mannlicher round and fire .323 bullets in a .311 barel.

I have no doubt about it that the finish designer make the x53R after the well known 9,3x57 from their swedish neighbours. funny that the birth date is unknown like for the swedish cartridge.
the russian must have adopt the x53R very early, I have seen pics at least of two high quality double rifles made in soviet times over the years.




Me, too. I actually quite recently saw some photos of very high-grade Russian combos in 9x53R. That sparked my interest to the caliber, and made me ask if it is the same as the Finnish one.
I know too damn little about the Russian weapons, and my Russian is far too basic for me to gain much more info, but I'm working on it!

Many members on this forum seem to hold the 9,3x57(R) in very high esteem which would suggest that the 9,3x53R is potent, indeed, beyond the official load data and old factory loadings.

- Lars

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: Schauckis]
      #133766 - 28/04/09 08:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:



Many members on this forum seem to hold the 9,3x57(R) in very high esteem which would suggest that the 9,3x53R is potent, indeed, beyond the official load data and old factory loadings.

- Lars




it all started once with the 9x57 Mauser!

its my impression that cartridges like 9x56 Mannlicher Schönauer, 9x57 Mauser, 9,3x57 Mauser and 9,5x56 Mannlicher Schönauer are worth more than people believe today. not only because the brass is easy to form from common cases and you hold your money for other projects.
I see pic is to small, again.



9,3x53R 255 grain sako softpoint 51,1 grains N 140 710 m/sec 3000 bar
9,3x57 255 grain sako softpoint 50,9 grains N 140 690 m/sec 2600 bar




another interesting load to compare




9x57R Mauser 250 grains speer softpoint 47,0 grains N140 675 m/sec 2500 bar
this load is also to use for the rimless 9x57 Mauser ( rifles in 9x57 mauser are also underated today)




the 9,3x53R is a very fine cartridge and I am sorry that they dont find the interest in their country anymore. seeing hundreds of husqvarna in 9,3x57 leaving sweden today. good to have such a rifle but its allways a lost for the country and its culture. hear that the swedish find a new interest in this guns today. you have allways to lost a thing to know what its worth. the finish mosin conversion was born from gun laws and a lost war, now its the work of some gun nuts to dont let it die.

Edited by lancaster (28/04/09 08:36 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 1800
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #133776 - 28/04/09 11:22 PM

For those with interest in the double rifle drilling and the 9X57R cartridge, this item could be appealing. The seller opines that the drilling was built in 1935, on what basis he did not reveal, but the stock design (beavertail foreend, etc.) would seem to indicate recent alterations. It's hard to tell from the description and the photos just what we are dealing with here. I would want the gun gone over by a qualified gun maker before committing that much cash to it.

http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2233402


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #133778 - 28/04/09 11:56 PM

Very interesting thread.

A couple things more;

Some 100,000+ Japanese Arisakas were obtained from Great Britain {where they had been used for training purposes} c.1916 by the Czarist authorities. IIRC, they were issued to units on the Northern Front, which I take it would have been somewhere west of Petrograd. Interestingly, the cartridge for this rifle; 6.5x50 semi-rim served as the basis for what might be called the first assault rifle shooting the first "intermediate" cartridge, the Federov Avtomat M1916. {Remember, the Russky's had firsthand experience on the receiving end of this round in the 1905 war with Japan}. Federov chose the cartridge because it was in the logistics system and stressed gun components less than the 7.62x54R, and a lighter weapon could be built around it. The M1916 was manufactured for about 5 years and remained in limited service with Soviet armies till WW2, some even being issued...against the Finns in the Winter War!! There is an interesting picture in Ezell's book on the Kalashnikov of several Soviet soldiers holding M1916's during the Winter War.

Canadian Ross rifles were also obtained and in highly modified condition, served for many years with some Soviet target shooting teams.

Primary arms issued during the Winter War were the M91 series and both Army and Civil Guard {SAKO} modifications; M91 & M91/24, M1927, M28 and M28-30. The famous Simo Hayha has been cited as using an open-sighted M28 for many of his 500 sniper kills. M39 Ukko Pekka was not issued in large numbers until the Continuation War and even then, from the reading I have done on the subject, it was actually outnumbered in service by the many, many tens of thousands of M91-30 rifles captured from the Russians. The 91-30 even received a complete echelon of maintenance in the Finnish army.

Enough M95 Winchesters were captured by the Germans in WW2 to be listed among their Fremdgeräte lists. It was given its own designation but the precise model escapes me. 955r?? Anyway, exactly what units in German service was issued these weapons I do not know but if memory serves me, some Naval units received some.

Do any of you Finns have a copy of Palokangas' excellent Small Arms of Finland? Maybe there is a section in it regarding the 95? I have the portions on the Mosin-Nagants & Kalashnikovs, but not any of the other weapons.

A fellow on the Swede Forum had a 9.3x53R built a few years ago. He lives in Colorado and has since ceased posting. However, he did a fair amount of handloading with the 9.3x53R and made some interesting comparisons between it and the 9.3x57 which is its "twin brother of a different mother".

There are many thousands of Mosin-Nagants in this country now, and I used to have an extensive collection of them. The Finn modifications especially the 28-30 are amazingly accurate rifles. I killed a bear with a M39 Ukko Pekka. A good memory except for the packing out part. Getting the bear out of the mountains was easy. Lugging Pystykorva up and down the mountain was something else!!!

My Dad was fond of a funny play on English words that he learned reading the news of the Winter War. He used to chuckle and say; "Remember, a Russian horse will never cross the 'Finnish' line..."

PS: For those confused, the 9.3x57R mentioned in previous posts on this thread is NOT the 9.3x57R/.360. Repeat, NOT.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: 9.3x57]
      #133779 - 29/04/09 12:15 AM

I dont think we will see this Doppelbüchsdrilling on egun will sell for this money. its maybe a quality gun but not a quality way to bring it into public
found a pic from some kind of museum in singapur to remember the time when tiger was to hunt there. seems to be winchester 95 in .405 was loved in asia.


first that was found for me in finnland was a barrel for the arisaka in 9,3x53R. dont know how it works with the arisaka magazin. I heard that the arisaka is loved from finish custom gunmaker till our times because the action is strong like hell.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (15/05/09 09:12 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #133781 - 29/04/09 12:32 AM

Quote:

first that was found for me in finnland was a barrel for the arisaka in 9,3x53R. dont know how it works with the arisaka magazin. I heard that the arisaka is loved from finish custom gunmaker till our times because the action is strong like hell.




Interesting!

Yes, some of our gunsmiths from the '50's had a fondness for it, too. Ackely's tests indicated it to be very strong indeed. Trouble is, the 6.5 action lacks recoil shoulders and that adds work for the gunsmith if he intends to use it with a heavy-kicking cartridge.

Strange the barrel was 9.3x53R. I wonder if it just didn't work out.

Totally Off-Topic, but I almost bought a .257 Roberts built on an Arisaka action from a Hollywood quickdraw stuntman who settled in a woods cabin nearby. He got in a scrape with a local fellow over a woman, planted a .44 round in the fellow's chest and then subsequently left the area and I never again saw the rifle again. The fellow sporting the hole survived, but later was "accidently" shot with a 7mm Remington Magnum by a drunk kid through the wall of the kid's house during an altercation between the fellow and the kid's father over...a woman! The kid and the kid's father buried the corpse under a slash pile in the mountains and then a couple years later spilled the beans, or rather, one of them or somebody they told went about chatting about it in public until the Authorities heard about during the winter last year. After the snow melted, the Sheriff found the remains of the fellow and last I heard both kid and father are lounging about under lock and key.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
awo425
.224 member


Reged: 29/04/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Germany
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: 9.3x57]
      #133783 - 29/04/09 01:04 AM

Hello,

I am the proud owner of hat Winchester :-)

Saw several M95 at Tampere this year, one with SAKO barrel in 7,62x53R and one or two in 6,5(or 6,3???) x53R.
But the 9,3mm version I liked best and arranged the import.

I will try to find more sporters in Finland, one built on each action, Mosin, Arisaka and Mauser.

I also own two Ariska T38, that served in Finland, both still in military trimm and mostly matching, one was rechamberd to 6,5x55, the other is all original.

Chris


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: awo425]
      #133784 - 29/04/09 01:16 AM

awo, CONGRATS!!!

A fascinating find and a great caliber. Sein Gewehr ist ausgezeichnet für Großwild! Waidmannsheil!

Gents; I have read that the 7x53R is made for ptarmigan shooting and the barrels were rifled with slow twists {+- 1 in 14 or so} and thus not good for shooting heavy bullets for hirvi, etc. Can you verify that?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
awo425
.224 member


Reged: 29/04/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Germany
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: 9.3x57]
      #133810 - 29/04/09 04:46 AM

Thanks :-)

First I must say: I am no hunter, so this rifle will only kill papertargets with me behind it.
But I collect finnisch military weapons and now also finnish and russian hunting/sporting weapons.
The M95 is the first step into my new collecting field.

Therefore also some corrections on teh names used for finnisch military rifles:

"Pystykorva" aplies only to the Army m/27, wile the Civil Guard rifles m/28 and m/28-30 were called "Suojeluskunnan Pystykorva".
The later m/39 was named "Ukko Pekka" after President Svinhufvud.
The earlier m/24 is the "Lotta Kivääri" and the SMG m/44 was called "Pelti Heikki".
The L39 anti tank rifle was named "Norsu Pyssy".
Some pistol nicknames: Mauser C96 = Ukko Mauser
Mauser M1914 = Akka Mauser.

Chris


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: awo425]
      #133847 - 29/04/09 11:29 AM

Here's my Old Man Pekka and a bear, 12 years ago.



--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by CptCurl (15/05/09 09:13 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Igorrock
.400 member


Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1360
Loc: Finland
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: 9.3x57]
      #133864 - 29/04/09 02:48 PM

"Gents; I have read that the 7x53R is made for ptarmigan shooting and the barrels were rifled with slow twists {+- 1 in 14 or so} and thus not good for shooting heavy bullets for hirvi, etc. Can you verify that?"

That't true. I have one 7x53R custom -Mosin made by Aarre Viitanen, Kauhajoki in early 1960's. I have done it little bit more so original look was nearly same as the upper rifle.

I have noticed that 155 grain bullet is the heaviest one which you can use with my barrel.





Edited by CptCurl (15/05/09 09:15 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: Igorrock]
      #133865 - 29/04/09 03:14 PM

Thanks igorrock. Nice rifles. That lower one is a peach!!

More 95 stuff...

Weaver's "DESPERATE MEASURES", p. 65 has a copy of the "Kennblätter fremden Geräts D 50/1 Rußland" for the Wintovka obr 1895, German nomenclature "Gewehr 255 (r), Russ 95". This of course is the data sheet on the Winchester Model 1895 in 7.62x54R Russian caliber. No information is given pertaining to how many were captured, where they were captured, or to what German units they were issued after capture.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: 9.3x57]
      #133867 - 29/04/09 04:02 PM

the russians use every gun they have, I havnt seen a WW 2 pic with a winchester 95.
nice black bear, do you made ham from this? most think black bears are some kind of teddy bears but I suspect they kill probable more people than other north american species. do you have also brown bears in your area? I would say the blacky is a dangerous game. he is able to kill you if you have a bad day, whats more to be dangerous?
we all have seen this pics before. my first impression was that this must be possible with a mosin action also



the mosin action is not a mauser or a mannlicher, its a action of its own rigth. I believe that follow the way of german M88 or Mannlicher M92 sporter you can made nice hunting rifles from them.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (15/05/09 09:16 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #133870 - 29/04/09 04:24 PM

btw, I cant remember seeing a m 95 in .405 win, what will they cost?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
awo425
.224 member


Reged: 29/04/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Germany
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #133875 - 29/04/09 05:29 PM

There are several M95 for sale at a german dealers shop, some .405Win also.
Prices are HIGH, 2000 and up.

The Mosin action can be modified for many calibers, I saw a 30-06 Mosin with heavy barrel, built by a SAKO gunsmith for his own use.

But nowerdays gunsmithwork here is expensive, way cheaper to get some old rifles and restore them, if needed.

I hope that the hunting museum in Riihimäki will get bigger showrooms, so that they can display the rifels in storage now.
I was invited to teh storage rooms on my last visit this winter, VERY impressive!
All kind of hnting rifle conversions of older military guns.
Some real cuoriosiries, like a straightpull shotgun made from a SVT40!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #133894 - 29/04/09 10:50 PM

Lancaster: Statistically I believe you are correct. The black bear does injure and probably kill more people than the browns, but only because blackies are distributed throughout areas of high population density and most bear attacks seem to be provoked by some sort of unusual behavior by people; feeding bear being the most common. We consider them dangerous to dogs certainly, and I know many cases of bear injuring or killing dogs, but we do not consider them especially dangerous to people though they certainly can be, and even our small ones can take an amazing amount of physical punishment and keep fighting. And they can run forever, and sometimes do!!

As for the meat, it is, in my opinion, the best meat in the woods. Very tender, it tastes much like aged beef and a bear roast is indistinguishable from a fine beef pot roast. It is wonderful!

Mosin's were once VERY popular hunting rifles in the USA, back in the 30's when cheap MN's could be obtained and Remington made ammunition for them. Then, for years, no US company made ammo. Now, there are many, many thousands of MN's in the USA and many have large collections of them. I myself did, but sold my entire MN collection some years ago. The action is indeed strong and bedding for accuracy easy. And they are or can be, VERY accurate.

I have seen some interesting sporters based on both the hexagonal {91} and round {91-30} actions. The bolt is a fascinating design, very sturdy and VERY reliable. I would say probably as reliable as the Mauser 98 and the action very strong. The bolt fit in the action is somewhat loose and not "smooth" functioning.

The real "devil" is the trigger. The stock Russian trigger is a challenge. Some rifles have nice pulls, others....UHG!! It has a long drag, then a spongy and seemingly variable release. After much tinkering, I finally learned how to reshape a stock Russian trigger to give a good pull with a two-stage release. Very nice. The Finns beat the Russian trigger by the addition of two pins creating two humps for a repeatable two-stage release. These are found on Finnish M28-30 and M39 rifles. They can be adjusted very light and crisp. I have reworked quite a number of guns.

Original Winchester 95's here pricey, especially those in .405 Winchester. I have a friend with a large collection of 95's. He has 95's in .303, .30-40, .38-72, .40-72, .405, .30-06. But I do not believe he has a 7.62. They just are very rare here!

And a 95 in 9,3x53R???

Not a chance!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 147
Loc: Finland
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: awo425]
      #133938 - 30/04/09 05:02 AM

Quote:

Hello,

I am the proud owner of hat Winchester :-)




Congrats, Chris!
Good buy. A very good buy!

Quote:

Saw several M95 at Tampere this year, one with SAKO barrel in 7,62x53R and one or two in 6,5(or 6,3???) x53R.
But the 9,3mm version I liked best and arranged the import.




Yes, there were!
I was surprised myself, too.
However: Many were quite exorbitantly priced... Original Russian Army ones in 7,62x53R up to 1000€! Whoopsie.
Then again, for the hunter there were many customized ("spoiled"?) ones that could make decent projects.
Also some good restoration projects.

- Lars

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: Schauckis]
      #133939 - 30/04/09 05:19 AM

because we are in winchester 95 no, awo425 send me a link of a german dealer. he is having 5 rifles on his site http://www.hschiemann.com/Our_Products.html


405 take down 5500 euro



405 high grade 8595 euro



35 wcf 3900 euro



38-72 2250 euro



303 carbine 950 euro

what do other think about this prices?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (15/05/09 09:22 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
awo425
.224 member


Reged: 29/04/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Germany
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: Schauckis]
      #133940 - 30/04/09 05:21 AM

1000Euro is not bad for a original m95, here dealers ask 2500+ for such pieces!

If I can scrape together the money, I will buy a original M95 one day.

But befor that, I will return to Tampere and buy some more cool huntng rifles

BTW, do you know somebody in Finland, who has a die set for 9,3x53R for sale?

Chris


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 147
Loc: Finland
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: awo425]
      #134033 - 01/05/09 05:13 AM

Quote:

BTW, do you know somebody in Finland, who has a die set for 9,3x53R for sale?




I don't know for sure, but I'd suggest you try Riistamaa, they probably have Lee's custom dies for 9,3x53R.
riistamaa@riistamaa.fi
tel. +358 9 4110 1290

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Igorrock
.400 member


Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1360
Loc: Finland
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: Schauckis]
      #134097 - 01/05/09 05:46 PM

I bought my 7x53R die set from CH Tool & Die and think they would have 9,3x53R dies in stock too.

http://www.ch4d.com/

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: Igorrock]
      #134108 - 01/05/09 08:38 PM

yes, it is


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (15/05/09 09:23 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
awo425
.224 member


Reged: 29/04/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Germany
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #135058 - 11/05/09 04:49 AM

OK, we had a range test today.
And to make it a good test, a retiered Major of the finnich Army waas with me :-)



The results were not that good, but the cause for that are definitely the swadged lead bullets, I used. Not good at all, bases not uniform, so lots of flyers and even one keyhole.
Barrel was not dirty at all, very pleasant to shoot.



Now I have to wait for better bullets and order a dies set too.

Chris

Edited by CptCurl (15/05/09 09:27 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: awo425]
      #135062 - 11/05/09 05:42 AM

Lancaster, what is that flatpoint bullet???

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: 9.3x57]
      #135095 - 11/05/09 04:08 PM

at least you have the holes on the target
no, to be seroius, I found the copper plated lead bullets very sensitive with only ligth pitted bores and not 100% correct reloading tactic. also only trust them at 50 meter.
what was your load, vithavouri N110 powder?
what you need is a long softpoint bullet, 286 grains! if this will not grouping you better sell the rifle to me.

the bullet on my pic was made from cut down 222 rem brass(.375 base diameter), loaded one of this copper plated 8mm S bullet inside. it was the only bullet I have on hands to try the new reloading die set. in the name of sience I was making a plinking bullet for a 9,5mm MS on my wish list. see sometimes here that some of you make .366 bullets from such homemade softpoints. when thinking about 9mm parabellum brass(.389)is swaged down to .366 was believing that .375 is much more simple to reduce. a homemade die that endet in .368 because I wasnt careful enough was not pleasent to swage in the rock chucker. in the end I have to rebore it to .3705.
make another .366 die and swage in two steps is maybe the way to go.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #135096 - 11/05/09 04:10 PM

btw, is the winchester working with mosin stripper clips?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #135113 - 11/05/09 10:26 PM

Interesting, lancaster!

I had to anneal {soften} the 7.62x25 and 9mm cases before drawing {die reducing} them. They then went thru the dies very easily. Getting two bullets to line up will be difficult. But always such projects are interesting indeed!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
awo425
.224 member


Reged: 29/04/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Germany
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: 9.3x57]
      #135152 - 12/05/09 06:46 AM

I use H&N copper palted lead bullets out to 100m with excellent success, but the 9,3mm bullets were from an unknwon manufacturer, bougth just 100 for function check.
Noe dirt in teh barrel wahtsoever, teh barrel is nice and shiny :-)
I used 20grn of N110 behind the 275grn bullet.

Ofcourse the Winchester functions with Mosin chargers, it was designed that way :-)
I selected this M1895 also because of teh charger guides were still there, others had them removed(one with a new SAKO barrel in 7,6x53R).

I have some other projects still waiting, the Vetterli need ammo and two pistols need inspection.
So teh winchester will have to wait somewhat, complete disassembly an checkum, gotta smoth out some buggered up screws and some other small things.

Will report back here, when I did another rage session with better bullets.
But I think, I will wait, till I get the die set.

Chris


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: awo425]
      #135196 - 12/05/09 08:43 PM

awo,I hope to make another order to ch4d in mai/juni when its possible to make the chamber cast for this. will you come in?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
awo425
.224 member


Reged: 29/04/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Germany
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #135243 - 13/05/09 06:29 AM

I will be with you on that order.
9,3x53R for sure and maybe 8,2x53R also.
They also offer bullet swadging dies, would need one for .308" to .300" for my Carcano.

Just let me know, when you do the order, but I am on vacation in the end of May.

Chris


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Hobbit
.224 member


Reged: 25/07/08
Posts: 13
Loc: Toledo, Ohio USA
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: awo425]
      #136614 - 03/06/09 11:41 AM

Wow...cool thread. I had a 1895 in .30 06, but that seems so boring now...

--------------------
I have a pair of Westley Richards....socks...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: Hobbit]
      #136615 - 03/06/09 11:47 AM

LEE makes bullet sizing dies for custom sizes. $25.00 per die. You select the internal dimension.

Much cheaper than CH4D.

I use LEE dies in a variety of calibers, and especially in 9.3mm. I use them to size down .375 caliber bullets to 9.3mm.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
awo425
.224 member


Reged: 29/04/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Germany
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: 9.3x57]
      #137301 - 15/06/09 05:15 AM

Ok, got a die set(Thanks Lars!) and some light S&B Bullets.
The load is nothing to kill moose with, but shoots not too bad, giving 665m/s(standard deviation 3,3m/s) with mild recoil.


Got to drift the frontsight to the left.
First 3 shots were done with the rearsight set to the scribe line in the sight leave, making the shots go way high at 100m in the target above.
Lowest sight setting is good for 6 o'clock hold at 100m and POA at 50m, I can live with that.

Chris


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1112
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: awo425]
      #137306 - 15/06/09 08:39 AM

.


Got to drift the frontsight to the left.

Chris




Chriss you need to shift you front sight to the right not the left to correct your impact point.

Your imopact error looks like 3 inches and if your sight radius is 20 inches and your target distance is 100 yards you need to shift your front sight .016 to the right.

impact error 3inches
sight radius 20 inches
target distance 100 yards x 36 inches =3600 inches

impact error multiplied by sight radius divided by target distance

3x20=60divided by 3600 = .0166

You could shift your rear sight towards desired point of impact but the front sight goes with the sight error.

Von Gruff.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
awo425
.224 member


Reged: 29/04/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Germany
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: VonGruff]
      #137344 - 15/06/09 03:34 PM

You are right, I forgot to switch on brain befor writing
Mixed that up with the setting for the Vetterli I shot in the same session, also shoots right but has driftable REARsight.

Frontsight is drifted already, sightpusher for swedish Mauser worked(german G98 front sight block with Luger P08 sight in it)

Chris


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: awo425]
      #137349 - 15/06/09 04:04 PM

good to see that your shooting is improve with the new die set
I think you are able now to pass the finnish shooting qualification for the next moose hunting season with your rifle. have you slug the barrel? the 196 grain S&B is for the 9,3x72R rigth? a .364 bullet diameter. with a .366 barrel diameter there is nothing wrong with your group.
BTW another story an old dealer told me once: the 9,3x53R was copied after the 9,3x72R because the finnish was so satisfied with this old german round and wish to copy this ballistic in a mosin. maybe not true but the old 9,3 is a great killer in woodland.

I think your veterli is also a finnish rifle, captured from russia or send from italy in 1940?
Do you know if the 10,4x47R vetterli was also use as a hunting round in finland?


what you realy need now is correct headstamp brass


dont have a rifle but readiness is all

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (15/06/09 04:13 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
awo425
.224 member


Reged: 29/04/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Germany
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #137383 - 16/06/09 04:46 AM

The S&B 193grn bullest are exactly .366", with N120 or something like taht one could push them real fast, Quickload gives around 800m/s
But I do not hunt with that rifle and for paperpunching the 659m/s are good enough for me.
The loads last time were not good, the lead bullets are crapp. Too bad, H&N do not make the 9,3mm CUHS any more, would have been a nice plinker.

I do not knwo the history of th3 9,3x53r, but there were many cartridges based on that case there, ranging from .25 up to .375 in bullet size. They had lots of Mosin actions and also quite a few Winchesters to convert. Also Arisakas and Mausers were modified, but mostly you see Mosins in the gunshops and gunshows. Good collecting field fo rme:-)

My Vetterli is a swiss M78-81, so it never was to Finland, they only had the earlier M69 and M71, brought there during russo -japanese war by a ship named "Grafton" togeher with some Webley revolvers.
So both the Webleys and the Vetterlis are known as Graftons in Finland even nowerdays.
There is a picture of a moose hunt in finnish Hunting Museum of Riihimäki, showing a Vetterli.
A lead slug of 320grn at 400m/s should also be a good moosekiller.

I form my brass from PPU cases, way cheaper for me, as they were already here, got plenty of Mosins to feed. But normaly I use S&B cases for them.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: awo425]
      #137405 - 16/06/09 12:43 PM

the whole cartridge family is on egun just now







http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2298274&PHPSESSID=86442d3912f9cad6ce053c05bcc01ccd
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2298384&PHPSESSID=86442d3912f9cad6ce053c05bcc01ccd
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2299451&PHPSESSID=86442d3912f9cad6ce053c05bcc01ccd

when swiss vetterli is was born as a rimfire, did the finnish convert them to centerfire?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (16/06/09 12:44 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #137408 - 16/06/09 01:42 PM

I've used that 193 grain S&B bullet with a charge of fast pistol powder in 9.3x57 on grouse. It works pretty well. About like a .357 Magnum load. Pushed fast they blow up in my test media and would be a bad bullet for general big game hunting, especially moose. Would make a good roedeer bullet if driven to about 2100 fps I think.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
awo425
.224 member


Reged: 29/04/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Germany
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: 9.3x57]
      #137410 - 16/06/09 03:40 PM

I don't know, if the Finns converted the Vetterlis or if they used imported rimfire ammo.
Will try to ceck this on my next visit or even ask the curator of Hunting Museum.

Here the 9,3x62 is well liked by hunters, normaly all shooting is done under 100m, mostly pigs and deer.

Chris


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4558
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: awo425]
      #140282 - 10/08/09 04:50 AM

post it here because of the M 95 connection, interesting british winchester
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/9068/t/British-altered-Model-1895-303-British.html

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 147
Loc: Finland
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #141263 - 28/08/09 06:25 AM

Back to the best thread on the m/ 1895 ever!

Just bought a 7,62x53R @ the local dealer for 240€.

Alas, the front stock is cut and the rear sight is not original, but otherwise the gun is in good condition.
The paraphernalia, of course, are missing; and also the original sling which features the patented length adjustment clip. But I have one of those on my other one.
But: It does have the "ears" for the load clip, as well as the quick-detachable sling mount at the rear (which can be fastened in front of the magazine box in Ching Sling style for added support. How many of you knew the secret behind that little loop by the magazine box, eh?).
The Russian markings are rather worn.

Shot 44mm and 38mm groups @ 100m (110 yds), i.e. i.r.o. 1.5"! Grouped 2 shots at 12mm, less than 0.5" that is! Used bench rest but still no mean feat with open sights. The ammo I used was 8g (123grs) Sako Range FMJ.
I'll be getting some 180grs Sako Hammerhead Softpoints tomorrow, so more test shooting to follow.

I'd love to post pics for you all to enjoy - could someone help me out on this one, please?

- Lars/Finland

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 147
Loc: Finland
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: Schauckis]
      #141339 - 30/08/09 02:51 AM

Update:
Went to the range today for the big game hunting license shooting test.
It's not really a "test" anymore: you shoot 4 shots within 90 seconds on a standing target @75m (83yds) and you are allowed to use bench rest. For moose license you need to hit within a circle of 23cm (9"), and for bear license it's 17cm (about 6.5"). The test used to consist of 3 shots within 20 seconds on a standing target, plus 3 (or was it 4?) shots on a running target that was visible for 4.5 sec. No rest allowed. Many hunting parties still have their "internal" tests which are pretty similar to the old test, or a modification e.g. more shots and various distances.
I passed the bear test with flying colors on the first try! The group of 4 shots was about 6cm (just under 2.5").
My friend then had a test shoot, and he strongly disliked the mechanism and the recoil - but I sure gained his respect for passing the test! He shoots a scoped Sako 75 in .308.

I also shot some 180grs Sako Hammerhead hunting loads, but the grouping seemed poor. I'll need to retry those, as that's the only viable factory hunting ammo available. If no good, I'll have some handloads made.

Another update:
I have an already "spoiled" m/1895 in 8,2x53R that I took to the gunsmith for some mods - called him on Friday to get an update, and the project seems to be going fine. The biggest job is to convert it to take-down, and also the sights & stock are being altered. I took good care of the old, original stock, of course. That's about the only remaining original part on that particular rifle, you see. Plus of course the screwdriver tool!

- Lars

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: Schauckis]
      #141364 - 31/08/09 02:17 AM

Lars, email them to me and I'll post them. Just make sure they are small enough since I am on slow dialup and can't take large files. 500kb is about max.

So you passed the hirvi test with the 9,3 95? Great job!!

I really do not think many Americans know how much a good "general skills" annual TEST goes to make for confident, solid killing shots in the field. I'll concede that we don't want a government-run test here, but I encourage every individual to set up a test of their own and abide by it; pass or fail and stick to the rules.

We use the Norwegian reinsdyrblinker here, both as a 100 meter test and as a 200 yard and 300 meter practice target. We shoot 200 from sitting, elbows on knees, and after passing that way, shooting from 100 is easy. I WISH I could rig up a running target...

Bravo on the shooting, and we expect to see hirvi and kivaari soon!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 147
Loc: Finland
Re: winchester 95 9,3x53R [Re: 9.3x57]
      #141374 - 31/08/09 06:11 AM

Actually, this is the 7,62mm.
That was one reason for the purchase: original caliber @ low price!

Went shooting today, as well, as planned. Alas, the 180grs Hammerheads group badly and far to the right. Have to ask a couple of friends if they have handloads and try them out.

And I've even learned to post photos.









--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

Edited by CptCurl (20/09/09 12:48 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)



Extra information
0 registered and 3 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 23572

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved