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kcordell
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Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Deep South
Jos. Lang Howdah in .577
      #108740 - 02/07/08 01:29 PM

Does anyone have any information on this maker?

Thanks,



Edited by CptCurl (29/12/08 02:08 AM)


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tinker
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: kcordell]
      #108742 - 02/07/08 01:41 PM

Wow.
Lang was very much the real deal.
Lots to say about him.

What are you looking for?
Is that pistol being offered to you?

It seems to have seen quite a bit of 'gunsmithing' and refinish work.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tinker
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: kcordell]
      #108743 - 02/07/08 01:46 PM

From Atkin Grant & Lang Website


Joseph Lang

Until 1812 Joseph Lang worked for Alexander Wilson of 1 Vigo Lane, who subsequently moved to 14 Titchbourne St, Piccadilly. In 1821 he set up on his own and in 1825 was recorded as Joseph Lang Gun and Pistol Repository (from Wilson's Warehouse, Vigo La.) at 7 Haymarket and was to stay there for more than a quarter of a century. In 1826 he had something of a commercial coup, as he was able to advertise in the Morning Chronicle of 8 June the entire stock of guns of the bankrupt Joseph Manton after he had to leave his Oxford St premises. He opened a 21 yard shooting gallery adjoining the premises in early January 1827, one of the earliest recorded shooting schools.

In 1830-34 Joseph took delivery of 84 guns, rifles and pistols from James Purdey on sale or return, all of which were quickly sold. Joseph obviously got on well with Purdey; indeed he got on even better with one of his four daughters, whom he subsequently married, making the younger James Purdey his brother-in-law. Just before leaving his Haymarket premises he exhibited at the Great Exhibition and was very impressed with a French Lefaucheaux gun, so much so that in 1856 he introduced his own version using the Houillier pin-fire cartridge system. His marketing of this design and subsequent improvements to it have resulted in Lang's name being forever linked to the introduction of breech loading sporting firearms into Great Britain.

In 1853 he moved to 22 Cockspur St, Charing Cross, the last premises he personally was to occupy. I his life he not only brought us the breech loader, but he became a driving force in popularising lemon and white pointers and also the idea of field trials for dogs. After his death, his son, also Joseph, ran the business, although it appears that the name was not changed to Joseph Lang & Son until 1875. Young Joseph, perhaps as a result of the kinship through marriage, had been apprenticed to the younger James Purdey in 1845 and such expert training helped to ensure the continuing success of the firm.

After the move to 10 Pall Mall in 1890, Lang brought out the Vena Contracta gun, the brainchild of H Phillips (shooting editor of The Field magazine), which fired a 12 bore cartridge in a barrel which was contracted to a 20 bore gauge during the first third of its length. However it was not a great success, as the weight advantage gained was offset by increased recoil and indifferent performance and many of these guns were subsequently re-barrelled. Eight years later, the business of James Lang & Co. was to be taken over. This was the result of young Joseph's brother, having set up on his own in 1887 and that business now being returned to the fold. The business was briefly renamed Joseph Lang & Co Ltd and it moved to 102 New Bond St, which had been James Lang & Co.'s premises. With that move came the change of name on 28 June 1898 to Lang & Hussey Ltd which was retrained until 27 June 1901 when it reverted to Joseph Lang & Son Ltd.

On 14 January 1902 one the directors, a Capt. Bartle Grant, wrote from Malta to resign. He was in financial difficulties and the company had considerable problems recovering an outstanding account for a gun which he had pawned.

In February 1904 the company applied for a provisional patent for an armour piercing projectile in the joint names of Mr LM Ames and Joseph Lang & Son Ltd. In 1904 it sent 12 guns to the St Louis Exhibition in the USA. It also did work for the Automatic Rifle Syndicate Ltd, trying to improve the product without success and had difficulty in recovering the money since the syndicate was in financial trouble. In 1906, as a result of the need for more production space, it took over the three-storey building immediately behind the Bond St. shop. On 29 October 1913, Dryden & white's patent rights in their o/u gun were assigned to the company and formed the basis of the Lang 'Under and Over' gun. In February 1914, the company set up a five-year agreement with Abercrombie & Fitch of New York for it to be sole USA agent and this was hoped to improve Lang's indifferent trading performance. Interestingly, the rent of 102 New Bond St at that stage was renewed for a further six years, three years at £475 per annum and the following three at £500 per annum payable quarterly! The company remained under the name Joseph Lang & son Ltd at the Bond St address until 1925 amalgamation with the business of Stephen Grant & Sons. This formed the basis of the major London gunmaking combine of Stephen Grant & Joseph Lang Ltd at 7 Bury St, St James's under the guidance of succeeding generations of the Robson family. Surviving records show that in 1933 their joint customer list contained eight dukes, 254 lords, 206 ladies, 73 service personnel, 6,322 members of the British public and 151 overseas customers!

The history of Henry Atkin, Stephen Grant and Joseph Lang is shown by kind permission of Nigel Brown, taken from his book 'London Gunmakers'.

A word from the present owner, Ken Duglan

I served my apprenticeship with Atkin Grant & Lang over thirty years ago. In my wildest dreams I could never have imagined that one day I would be fortunate enough not only to be part of, but to run such an exceptional company. We make guns today the way they have always been made, by using fine craftsmen. I like to think that Henry, Stephen and Joseph would be content in the knowledge that their names still embellish very fine guns.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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kcordell
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: tinker]
      #108744 - 02/07/08 01:52 PM

Not looking to sell. Just find out more about it. Since I am not sure what it was supposed to look like, I cannot comment on Tinker's post. It does not appear to have been repaired or refinished and has been in the family for a long time. The camera or lighting of the picture maybe caused a refinished look?


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tinker
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: kcordell]
      #108745 - 02/07/08 02:04 PM

Kc

What you have there is a Howdah Pistol
Howdah Pistols are compact, big caliber pistols designed around rifle actions, which were intended as primary backup for hunters who rode on the backs of elephant.
The elephant would be outfitted with a special, great big saddle called a Howdah. The hunters from time to time would get attacked by tigers, jumping aboard the elephant to attack the men.
The Howdah Pistol packed two quick hits of seriously hard hitting defense against such an attack.

The pistol shown above appears to have been refinished -- not necessarily a bad thing -- not necessarily a good thing either.

Better photos would very much be appreciated.
Can we see the top rib, the barrel and action flats, the lockplates, the trigger guard, and a shot down the bores please?

These things are awfully cool, we like them, and we want to see as much of this pistol you're showing here as we can.



Here's an old percussion howdah I used to own.




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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kcordell
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: tinker]
      #108747 - 02/07/08 02:27 PM

Thanks for the above information above Tinker. If it was refinished, it would have had to have been refinished in the 1920s as I know no one in my family had it repaired or refinished. It shows some useage or wear, maybe holster wear on the barrel. The bores are almost mint.

Have to get more pictures later.



Edited by CptCurl (29/12/08 02:11 AM)


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tinker
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: kcordell]
      #108748 - 02/07/08 02:31 PM

Kc

I wasn't asking if you were selling this pistol, I was asking if it was being offered to you.
Please excuse any misunderstanding that I'm responsible for there.

To discuss my impression that the pistol has been worked on or refinished--

First thing, the hammers don't look original.
Also, looking at the lock that's visible on the right side of the pistol, the screws that hold it's guts in seem to be 'out of time' also, the screw that holds them to the stock, just aft of the action is also 'out of time'
As well, the escution screws (where the wedge holds the barrels to the wood) don't look original.

I'd need to see better photos, but the lock and action metal appear to have been buffed and re-colored.
Furthermore, the rib looks like it's been filed after-market, and it doesn't appear to be centered over the center between the fences.
Also, the stock seems to have seen some repair near the right hammer.

These all could be due to lighting.
I'm guessing that at least some of these initial things I saw might be accurate.
That doesn't mean much.
This is a neat old Howdah any way you look at it.
I wouldn't likely refuse it!





--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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kcordell
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: tinker]
      #108750 - 02/07/08 02:43 PM

Good feedback Tinker. No misunderstanding at all. The pistol is in the hands of a cousin who has the history. As mentioned above, I really dont know much about them but thought it was a neat piece. The pics came from a blackberry camera phone. I will try to take more pics later with a better camera. You may be right on some of your assumptions.....these are not my specialty.

thanks for your input.


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tinker
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: kcordell]
      #108751 - 02/07/08 02:49 PM

Kc-

If that pistol made it to the jungle, without extensive journals and a strong accounting of provenance, it may well be impossible to know for sure all of it's history -- especially in regards to it's scheduling of tunes and services.

Back in the good old days, and in the worst of conditions, a broken spring or fubar'd tumbler got repaired by whoever could do it and get it back into action.

I look forward to hearing what you come up with, also very much look forward to better photos of the pistol.

Detail on whatever's remaining of the engraving on the rib, the locks, and the action -- also a complete look at the proof marks on the barrels and action will be a great source of information on this neat old gun.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: tinker]
      #108761 - 02/07/08 09:48 PM

KC,

It's a magnificant piece of history. You should cherish it in your family; otherwise, you should send it to me!!!!!!

I too would like to see more photos.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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peter
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: CptCurl]
      #108762 - 02/07/08 10:17 PM

nice howdah, i know most of us here would love more pictures or the gun itself, it is very special.

best regards

peter


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DarylS
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: peter]
      #108779 - 03/07/08 01:21 AM

Now THAT's A MAGNUM pistol!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: DarylS]
      #108819 - 03/07/08 11:42 AM

What sort of cartridge / loading would this howdah pistol take? Ballistics?

Would it be black powder?

Also are the barrels damascus barrels or is that just the second photo?

Age?

Very nice. I would love to come across a nice shootable howdah one day. For emergencies when I am hunting on the back of my elephant and a tiger or leopard gets a bit frisky.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: NitroX]
      #108820 - 03/07/08 11:44 AM

BTW did all howdah pistols have cocking hammers? For safety reasons?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (03/07/08 06:09 PM)


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tinker
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: NitroX]
      #108830 - 03/07/08 01:59 PM

John-

Although all I know of this pistol is what we see here, I'm convinced those barrels are damascus -- or a very convincing facsimile of damascus.

I very much want to see the proofs, the lugs, and the lumps.
I'd like to see a chamber cast, or a fired round.
I'd like to see down the bores.
For kicks I'd like to see what's going on inside the locks.


I haven't seen a hammerless Howdah Pistol based on a hammerless rifle platform, besides a couple of short barreled martinis -- which I just don't count in the class of Howdah. I've seen the Lancaster four barreled pistol which some folks refer to as Howdah pistols, which I also just don't consider howdahs (even in '577' the revolver round, it still was a anti-man not anti cat pistol).
...but I haven't seen a DR-design-based Howdah that wasn't a hammer gun.
The AnsonDeeley boxlock dates from ...1875 with safety in the early 80's?
I think an AD boxlock Howdah would work -- design wise, but just haven't seen it.

Could be that by the time hammerless rifles were vogue, the time of the Howdah had passed.

I've had my eyes out for hammerless howdah pistols.
I'd be happy to see a real-assed hammerless Howdah, perhaps someone here can show us some images...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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kcordell
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: tinker]
      #108839 - 03/07/08 02:36 PM

The barrels are damascus. I promise to post more when I can. Glad you all have such knowledge on this topic.

Curious, how common / oncommon are Howdas?


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tinker
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: kcordell]
      #108840 - 03/07/08 02:46 PM

Kc-

I'd say Howdah pistols are in a similar class as very large bore (8+) double rifles when it comes to how often they come up for sale, possibly more rare.
I just don't know what the build ratios were vs rifles and shotguns, but I have a sense that a lot of howdah pistols ended up in India, rotting in the hot humidity with the help from highly corrosive primers and hygroscopic blackpowder residue, tucked into belts against the sweaty bellies of preoccupied hunters.

I can imagine that there were *a lot more* howdahs lost in the jungle than rifles or shotguns too.

Note yours has a lanyard ring.
The lanyard ring isn't very common.
More often I see either ornate grip caps or compartment grip caps.
That lanyard ring may well be the only reason you have the opportunity to show this one off to us this week!



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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gatsby
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: tinker]
      #108843 - 03/07/08 03:37 PM

Great looking pistols.
Tinker,
What became of your little muzzle stuffer?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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tinker
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: gatsby]
      #108845 - 03/07/08 04:03 PM

Gatsby-

That pistol ended up going into a trade.
I think it's still around the area though.
If you're interested I could do some digging...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Nakihunter
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: tinker]
      #108852 - 03/07/08 07:41 PM

Just a side not ....

As an ex-sociologist, I have a theory that all collectible stuff have cycles. The rare ones have cycles that are close to major collectors' age.

I suspect that some major collector's estate has sold some nice guns recently OR a-not-so-old-or-diseased collector has sold off quite a few guns recently.

My review of old threads & old auction sites / records are the source of evidence / proof / validation or what ever .....of the recent availability of nice guns.

Yes, I know that his particular Howdah pistol is not a sale item & has been in the family. As a nostalgic romantic I wish you keep it in the family for ever.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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tinker
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: Nakihunter]
      #108874 - 04/07/08 01:11 AM

Nakihunter-

Your theory is pretty much spot-on.
As the value of the dollar churns and old hunters and gun collectors die, some of them will inevitably have families who either/both don't care about fine guns and/or need/want money more than they understand the value of fine guns -- and we'll see more collections spill out into the market.

That's just how it goes.

Howdas come up for sale.
There's a very very nice pair on Gunbroker right now.
Cased Mortimer Pair

NOTE BY CPTCURL: The Gunbroker.com link is no longer valid, but these fine Mortimer howdah pistols
can be viewed on this thread.



It will be interesting if these reach the reserve, and if they do, what they will hammer for on the auction site.

They're pretty beautiful, it's a great set.
I especially like the belt hooks!





--Tinker

Edited by CptCurl (29/12/08 03:08 AM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: tinker]
      #109240 - 08/07/08 11:07 AM

Isn't it safe to assume that the Lang howdah, the subject of this thread, is chambered for the .577 Snyder?

Like Tinker, I would dearly love to see more photos with details of the water table and flats.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: CptCurl]
      #109261 - 08/07/08 06:08 PM

I wonder what the reserve was. A pair of Manton howdah pistols recently sold at Holts for, I think £5000. best, Mike

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tinker
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #109288 - 09/07/08 05:38 AM

That pair of Mantons is very special.
Very high condition, cased, kitted, complete.
For whatever it's worth, with an interesting story and provenance...

I could easily see them getting up to or past 20kUSD


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Jos. Lang Howdah in .577 [Re: tinker]
      #109312 - 09/07/08 12:23 PM

Tinker,

What pair of Mantons?

I think Mike_Bailey just said a pair sold for £5000.

Are you speaking of the Mortimers?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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