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Woodbeef
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Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on?
      #103279 - 23/04/08 11:43 AM

From what I can find,it is an even better cartridge then the 358Win is. So why is it so over looked?

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #103284 - 23/04/08 12:12 PM

Good question.

I don't know.

The 9.3x62 is gaining a real foothold in the USA, while the hoary-old, US-concocted .35 W staggers around like a gutshot marmot.

How come?

I don't know.

Good bullets are available, cases are a cinch, factory rifles have been made available, it is a sure-fire killer and it has been around for donkey's years.

It is a GREAT round, and really deserves more attention, but for some reason most fellows seem to find it as enticing as Hillary in a G-string.

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Huvius
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103293 - 23/04/08 02:10 PM

Agreed.
.35 Whelen is as good as you need in the US. Really a classic in my book.
Amazing what you can spin off from the humble 30'06 case...

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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xausa
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103294 - 23/04/08 02:11 PM

I suspect that it's because it hasn't a belt and is not referred to as a magnum.

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Nakihunter
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: xausa]
      #103296 - 23/04/08 02:26 PM

The reasons IMHO are follows

1 The 358 win does almost the same as a 35 Whelan with 225 gr bullets in a short action or a lever action. Even that never caught on much. Ruger & Browning still sell a few 358 Wins but not many 35 Whelens.
2 The 250 gr bullet is the largest commonly available in 35 cal. Occasionally one sees 275 grs. The barrel twist is too slow for larger bullets.
3 Compare this with the 9.3X62 - this cartridge is an "improved" Whelen that gives 175 fps more velocity with 250 gr bullets. It shoots 286 gr bullets easily. It can even shoot the 320g Woodleighs at 2100 fps.
4 Europe & Africa have used the 9.3X62 for over 100 years & it is still very popular.
5 The 338 Win Mag has probably taken some of the interest away.

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Paul
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #103307 - 23/04/08 08:28 PM

It may have a looping trajectory, but for sambar in thick Victorian bush I can think of nothing better than a Remington pump in .35 Whelen - except maybe a db .375 magnum, if it were light enough.

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Plains99
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Paul]
      #103319 - 23/04/08 11:27 PM

The problem with 35 Whelen and 9.3X62 in the states is like has been said, there isn't a lot of room for either. 270, 30-06, 338, 308, 45-70 and other rounds blend together to pretty much fill all voids so the stuff never was pushed by American gun manufacturers and ammunition is generally not commonly available. When I can go to the local retailer and easily get the other rounds, these rounds are not generally considered no matter how good they are. We've had a lot of new ammunition introductions (especially the short magnums)in the last two years and no matter how good they may be, most of them will never catch on.

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szihn
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Plains99]
      #103321 - 23/04/08 11:55 PM

You know guys, this is not the first time I have read that the 35 Whelen is not very popular and didn't catch on. I hear it from all over the USA and even in Canada.

However, I live in Wyoming, and we have lots of elk and LOTS of grizzlies, and the 35 Whelen is quite popular here!

Maybe we are just a small 'hold-out' for the cartridge. I can't say, because I have not asked about this issue directly until now.
So.........
As an open question to all readers:
Do you or any one you know use or hunt with the old 35 Whelen?
I know 5 of them just in the town of Riverton (Population 9,000) and 2 more in Shoshoni
(population . four hundred). I know of 3 men in Montana that love their 35 Whelens (one of which is a Browning M-1895 which I rebarreled to 35 from a 30-06 many years ago).
I know one man in Idaho who owns one, and one in Las Vegas Nevada who loves his. He hunts with it in Colorado every year.

So, chime in here guys and let me know what you know.

Steve

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: szihn]
      #103325 - 24/04/08 12:26 AM

Great question, Steve:

I do not know a single fellow who uses one here in our county and really, we have absolutely perfect country for the .35 Whelen with elk, deer and bear in thick timber and up till recently only occaisional clearcuts. Have never heard of anyone using one here tho obviously there might be.

A friend of mine bought one back in the mid-80's, a Remington. Remington used a slow twist rifling in those guns, as, I think (?) did Ruger in their's. He wanted to use heavier bullets and decided to get rid of it. Not sure what the accuracy potential was as I never monkeyed with it much.

For years I thought a Springfield sporter in .35 Whelen would be a neat project, a kind of retro gun in a very useful caliber. Then I bumped into the 9.3x57 and now I doubt I will pursue the .35.

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #103329 - 24/04/08 01:38 AM

Quote:

From what I can find,it is an even better cartridge then the 358Win is. So why is it so over looked?



: Overlooked by whom?
: The .35 Whelen is resonably popular round here by hunters who know the value of descent weight of bullet on moose and bear. There are more .35 Whelens than .358 Win or .356's ior .35 Rems for that matter.
: As Steve said, in areas where there are moose and bear, the round holds some popularity. The .358 Winchester really doesn't come close to matching it - power or popularity. The lack of a broad range of bullet weights and styles hurts the .35 Whelen somewhat, but it does just fine out to my limits of 300 yards using even 250gr. SemiRound noses. Bullet shoice is better these days with Barnes, etc. I do wish Hornady had kept making the 280gr. RN's in .358". They did well in my .358 Norma.
: In comparrison, the .358 makes about 2,250fps with 250's while the .35 Whelen does 2,550fps to 2,650fps. Recoil is much less than a .338 WMag., however the .338Mag. beats the popularity of the .35 Whelen around here.
: Considering that Remington is one of the very few who chamber a rifle for the round, it does quite well. There are more re-barreled 98 Mausers up here in .35 Whelen than Remingtons.
: There are also a few 9.3x62's, even though ammo is unavailable here for that one. All the stores stock .35 Whelen ammo.
: Those of you who think the .338/06 can deliver higher velocities with same weight bullets at the same pressure, you need to study pressure and expansion ratios a bit more.
: Do I have one, no - have something better, a .375/06IMP. A Gibbs reamer was used to cut the body of the chamber so it has 3to4gr. more capacity more than a normal AckImp. Much better, but kicks like it as well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #103334 - 24/04/08 02:52 AM

Daryl, You bring up the 338/06 which is also very popular with Wyoming hunters. However, I have found that all the 338/06 shooters load their own, and many 35 Whelen shooters shoot factory ammo.

I made a 35 Whelen on a Springfield action for a good friend a few years back. It's a bit of an odd-ball. I made a semi-scout" It's got a 19" barrel and a laminated stock with a patchbox like a "Kentucky Rifle" and that patchbox holds a combo tool, an oilier and a sectioned cleaning rod and brush. That little rifle is about the ideal weapon for hunting in steep mountains where the main game animals are elk moose and large bears. I have a 1-12" twist in it and it shoot 250 grain Hornady Round Nose bullets into MOA groups. He’s a handloader. My friend Clay said he'd sell his house before he's sell his 35 Scout.
I will see if i can get some pictures of it. It's not the type of rifle I build for a living, but as I said, this was a project for a friend.

I expect to see Clay again soon, and I'll have him bring it over so I can get some pics. It's a little beat up (all rifles used in the steep country get that way) but it's still a very nice and fast handling rifle, and gets lots of comments wherever he shows it.
Steve

Edited by szihn (24/04/08 02:55 AM)

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: szihn]
      #103380 - 24/04/08 08:51 AM

Surprise!!

Load the 35 Whelen with a 280 gr Swift Aframe to 2300-2350 and you have a real killing machine if you do your part.

Great caliber!! Super bear caliber!

Too bad the 35 calibers are orphans here in the states.Standard size action, light weight,easy to reload--I like em!! I am rebarreling a custom mannlicker to a 35 Whelen!!

Basically it is a downsized smaller brother of the 375 H&H without the long action, increased weight and handling issues of the bigger cartridge.Is it a 375? Nope--but is it lethal enough for NA game?? Absolutely!!

So what's not to like??

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Con
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103382 - 24/04/08 09:50 AM

Like the 358Win ... its an enthusiast's cartridge. When I built my 358Win, I was floored to learn it was my gunsmiths most used reamer!

The 35Whelen wasn't exactly fully suported by Remington, even though it made them a tidy profit exceeding their expectations in sales. Apparently the only Remington Classic that out sold the 35Whelen was the 300Wby in what was a 25 calibre line up.

Remington pulled the spitzer 250gr loading leaving just a 250gr RN and 200gr spitzer ... confirming their view that its a brush and medium game cartridge, which in reality its not! The use of the 1:16" twist also hamstrung it with the heaviest projectiles that make it the equal to the 9.3x62.

It might not be popular ... but I know of 2 for sale locally that I'm trying hard to find the cash to buy ... a Rem700 Classic and an M17 convert. Hopefully, they'll join the 358Win and 350RemMag in the safe, then I need to see about grabbing a Miroku MLR in 358Win that's also for sale.
Cheers...
Con

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Con]
      #103389 - 24/04/08 12:27 PM

Calibres like 35 Whelen and 338/06 have two hurdles.

Firstly there is the 338 Winchester and 375 H&H. The 375 is the start of the big bores and has all the things a 375 just has. The 338 offers about the most power in rifles that are built and priced like 7mm Remingtons and it also offers good velocity.

The above means the 338/06 and 35 Whelen will never be big in the popularity stakes. The only way a calibre can be a commercial success if it is a small seller is if it can be sold at high prices and the 35 Whelen won't bear the big prices. The 30/378 and 378 Wbys etc are obviously very small sellers but they bear very high prices for ammo and cases.

I think when the average shooter steps up above the 30 calibre he likes to see a bigger cartridge than the 30/06.

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Woodbeef
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #103416 - 24/04/08 08:15 PM

So then,why is it that a good performing cartridge only has pockets of popularity? Is it the magnumitis of North America? Have the spin-doctors convinced enough purchasers that they must only have only the newest belted offerings,or be laughed out of the bush? Has the magnum-mothership abducted most of the new buyers and turned them into belted magnumoids? I'm finding myself more and more every day,coming around to Daryl's way of thinking on belted calibers.

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Con
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #103418 - 24/04/08 09:01 PM

Woodbeef,
Pockets of popularity are also dependant on what game is hunted. In Victoria (Australia) its reasonably popular because of the popularity of hunting Sambar deer (elk sized) in rugged terrain. The banning of semi-autos probably assisted as a Rem7600 in 35Whelen (as opposed to a 30/06 or 308 Woodmaster or BAR) is a fine hound hunting rifle with quick repeatable shots avaialable. Being squeezed by the 338WinMag and 375H&H doesn't help either ... particularly if you have dreams of hunting Africa where 375H&H can be a mandated minimum for dangerous game. The 338Federal has shown that the world hasn't gone totally "magnum" mad. But the boosted velocities with pixie powders will also never be seen in the 35Whelen or 358Win due to older Springfield/M95s/Savage99's etc still floating about.

I'd support Daryl 100% in wishing a 275gr-280gr projectile was on the market and available ... Woodleigh may produce such a projectile in RN configuration if enough interest was shown.
Cheers...
Con

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Con]
      #103423 - 24/04/08 10:44 PM

Con is absolutely correct!!

"Pockets of popularity are also dependant on what game is hunted."

In the states there is deer hunting in the south you can get by with a 243. In the Northeast folks feel they must have the blast of a 338 Mag for elk/moose/bear et al. The truth is most would be better off shooting out to 250 yds with a heavier pill with 338.06/9.3x57 or a 35 Whelen by far than a 210 gr 338 at 3000 fps.Problem is most folks don't shoot 338 mags well due to the recoil/blast.

So what happens?? A better cartridge for most hunters gets ignored for the flashy "mighty" magnum.

I love my 338's but I won't say this caliber is required to hunt elk/bear/moose et al!! A 250-280 gr bullet at moderate velocities can get the job done just as well!!

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Plains99
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103425 - 24/04/08 11:41 PM

Interesting topic. I'm sure the popularity is regional and local game does make a difference. I like big, moderate speed rounds because they do so well on most game. When I made the jump, I went from .300 Weatherby to .375 H&H and now .375 Ruger. I did that because of minimum legal standards in Africa and figured it would work well in the Rockies for occasional elk hunts and someday some bear hunting. I went by a lot of big bore stuff to .375 because I wanted a rifle that would do both and when we are talking about a rifle that doesn't get that much daily use, I wanted it to be a flexible as possible. I wonder how popular the .35 Whelen is in Alaska?

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Plains99]
      #103446 - 25/04/08 01:52 AM

Enthusiast's guns is right! Mike and Con have that nailed, as does Steve.
: The very best of the .35's, is a postion shared by the .35 Whelen Improved and the .35 Brown Whelen. I thought my .358 Norma was pretty special stuff, till I met a man in Squamish B.C. with a .35 Brown Whelen. His ballistics matched mine in factory ballistics - didn't hurt is brass and showed as good longevity as mine did. His standard M700 in the Brn. Whelen, build in the mid 70's was outstanding, but did kick hard too. Running a 250gr. Speer at 2,800fps takes it's toll. I know guys think that bullet is too soft, and it might be - for some game. On moose, it is nothing short of specatular when used by a good shot.
: I was feeling kinda short-handed, with the big belted mag., being matched by the '06 case, so I re-barreled the M602 BRNO to .375H&H with an unfired M602 barrel.
: The standard case is all that one needs as has been shown, but a bit more is always welcome.
: Locally, I have 3 friends with brand new .338 Feds. What a great little ctg. that too, will do it all. 2 of them have hunted almost exclusively with Marlin 45/70's, while the first to buy a Tika in the new Fed round, now owns and shoots many of my older wildcats. He thought the new Fed round would be a good one for his daughter, but I know Keith will do most of it's shooting.
: The best thing about rounds bsed on the .308 and .30/06, is once fired range pickup. Both of those .30 cals are popular around here too, and when the ERT squad counter-snipers are practising, I get all the Fed match brass I can use.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #103450 - 25/04/08 02:12 AM

A very interesting comparison can be made between a heavily-loaded .30-06 with 220 grain bullets and the .35 Whelen, 9.3x62, .375 Whelen, etc.

The current Hornady 220 grain .30's are a bit weak and fragile, but the old, sadly now-discontinued Remington Core-Lokt 220's held up amazingly well in tests I did with them some years ago, producing very deep penetration and perfect mushrooms with high weight retention in the test media. Performance about duplicated the 300 grain Hornady in the .375 H&H. Truth is, the high sectional density of the 220 .30, when combined with a good bullet makes for a round beaten very little by any of these others, which is not to denigrate them, but rather to say that all of them are excellent cartridges when suitable bullets are used.

I've never tried them, but I bet the heavy .30-cal Woodleighs would make a great option for a heavy .30.

Part of the reason I think the .35 never got out off the block running hard was that when trditional construction bullets were shot head-to-head, there was little or no difference in performance between commonly available .35 bullets and the 220 .30-06. I suspect use of .35 Rem bullets may have earned it a jaded rep when they were used on big stuff.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103453 - 25/04/08 03:13 AM

A quality 220 gr 30.06 bullet to the kill zone will certainly kill anything other larger cartridges will but a 280 fr Swift Aframe in a 35 Whelen should have more smash with a larger diameter and decent penetration with a SD over .300.

I maybe picking nits and dead is dead but--

Methinks I would want the Whelen for frontal area smack and penetration.Its only flies would be if it couldn't be pushed fast enough and approx. 2400 fps for 280 gr should work fine !!!

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pinotguy
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103468 - 25/04/08 06:17 AM

hoppdoc,

Very interesting idea using the 280-gr. A-Frame in the Whelen. I like the sound of that a lot. I'd always thought that specific bullet would be better served in the bigger .35's - i.e. Norma and STA, but if you can safely get 2400 FPS at the muzzle in the Whelen, I'm not sure if there's a better combo for big game in NA.

I like using "heavy-for-caliber" bullets so this is something I'd like to try. FWIW, Double Tap offers a 35 Whelen load that uses the 310-gr. Woodleigh - softs and solids.

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AzGuy
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103482 - 25/04/08 10:06 AM

Quote:

Good question.

I don't know.....

It is a GREAT round, and really deserves more attention, but for some reason most fellows seem to find it as enticing as Hillary in a G-string.



9,3:

Please refrain from creating such visual references..... I lost a good mouthfull of fine wiskey upon reading your desription.......very accurate, but most disturbing

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: AzGuy]
      #103489 - 25/04/08 12:10 PM

Quote:

9,3:

Please refrain from creating such visual references..... I lost a good mouthfull of fine wiskey upon reading your desription.......very accurate, but most disturbing



Sorry 'bout that.

It took half a bottle just to conjure the image up in the first place...

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Landy
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103493 - 25/04/08 12:48 PM

I might stop drinking,given that result!

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Con
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: pinotguy]
      #103505 - 25/04/08 03:48 PM

Quote:

I like using "heavy-for-caliber" bullets so this is something I'd like to try. FWIW, Double Tap offers a 35 Whelen load that uses the 310-gr. Woodleigh - softs and solids.



And here's the rub ... using Remington's 1:16" twist these projectiles are borderline for stability. I tested the 310gr Woodleigh soft from a friend's Rem700 35Whelen and it showed evidence of tipping at 200m ... which is a LONG way away for a 310gr at 2200fps. The solid being even longer still ... I really don't know how that'll go.

In a custom rifle with 1:12" ... everything from lightweight pistol projectiles to the heavy-weight Woodleigh's are useable ... making it an awfully versatile cartridge with a usefully flat trajectory and tolerable recoil.
Cheers...
Con

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Landy]
      #103514 - 25/04/08 09:28 PM

How completely wrong!!!!



Curl

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: CptCurl]
      #103518 - 26/04/08 12:15 AM

Curl - you're sense of humour is very badly twisted.

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Daryl


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xausa
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Con]
      #103520 - 26/04/08 12:18 AM

I suspect that the vast majority of "big game" animals taken in the US are white tail deer. The .35 Whelen is unnecessarily poweerful for white tail, and with the wrong bullets (such as those designed for elk or moose) is actually less effective than smaller calibers.

Moreover, the .35 Whelen has been a factory cartridge for only 21 years and no great effort has been made to promote it. On the other hand, the .270 Winchester has been around since 1925 and has been actively promoted by both Jack O'Conner and Col. Whelen himself. It is a much more sensible "all-round" cartridge and has a great deal less recoil. One of the reasons for the failure of the .358 Winchester was that it was offered in the Featherweight version of the Model 70, and the recoil was fierce.

In 1987, when the .35 Whelen was introduced as a factory round, those hunters with enough knowledge to appreciate its advantages already had one in all probability, as in the case of the .22-.250, another Remington effort to legitimize a wildcat. I don't know this to be a fact, but I suspect that the .22-.250 has also failed to live up to expectations, as far as sales are concerned.

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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: xausa]
      #103532 - 26/04/08 02:00 AM

Quote:

I suspect that the vast majority of "big game" animals taken in the US are white tail deer.



Absolutely true. your statement about the .35 Whelen devotees already having one when Remington spun there's out is interesting. I wonder if that is essentially true. I mean, like you say, the caliber had been out for many years.

And absolutely true about the .270. Frankly, who NEEDS much more than such a caliber? Not very many hunters in the USA.

Along those lines, one of the loads I remember reading years ago as a primo .35 Whelen deer load was the 200 grain {intended for the .35 Remington} bullet driven as fast as possible. As poor a performer as it was against really big game, it was said to an absolute bomb on whitetails.

I'd love to run some 1920's-1940's vintage 220 grain .30-06 loads and 250 grain .35 Whelen loads into my test media. I have a hunch that with available bullets of the day, there was no great or even noticeable difference between the two calibers in those loadings.

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xausa
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103533 - 26/04/08 02:12 AM

If I recall correctly, the preferred bullet for the .35 Whelen by the real died-in-the-wool enthusists was the 275 grain made by the long defunct Western Tool and Die Works, a bullet I have never personally seen, but often wondered about. I was really curious how such a bullet would work in my .350 G&H Magnum.

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: xausa]
      #103535 - 26/04/08 02:32 AM

Jack O'Connor mentions that bullet in his Book of the Rifle. Sounds like a winner, and IMO any .35 Whelen would be best fitted with a twist fast enough to stabilize long spitzer 250-275 grain bullets, and 300's.

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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103539 - 26/04/08 04:26 AM

12" twist is just fine for all bullet weights in .358, and a 14" would likely do to 280 gr. through 300's. A 16" twist, if unstable with specific bullets at 200yards, is unsuitable with those bullets at any range. The problem stems from being almost unstable at close range(even though they may hit point-on on paper. This almsot instability translates to instability and erratic behaviour (tumbling and/or turning) upon impact with heavy meat and bone.
: I've never built up a .35 Whelen as when Remington brought out that wildcat as legitimate I was already shooting .375 '06 IMP and a 9.2x62, which were virtually peas on a pod except for bullet side. When I picked up the Husky in 9.3x62, I'd already re-chambered my .367/06IMP to 9.5x68, so I used my IMP brass for the 9.3x62 by simply necking it down for the smaller .366" bullet. The IMP '06 brass fit perfectly and fireformed without loss.
: How many today realize the groove diameter of the .358 is the bore size of a 9.3, which has a groove diameter same as the bore of a .375?
: I've never owned a .270 Win. I had smaller varmint rounds of better range, and larger big game rounds better suited to British Columbian game.
: "Once when hunting hares, my Spaniels flushed a tiger, thereafter I alwasy carried one barrel loaded with ball" "When pursuing the spotted buck, I once tread on the tail of a tiger". Lt. James Forsyth, 1858.
: While tigers are quite rare around here,(beavers eat them, I've heard) grizzlies aren't.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #103546 - 26/04/08 04:58 AM

Quote:

Curl - you're sense of humour is very badly twisted.



Thank you!

Curl

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jimincolo
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: CptCurl]
      #103549 - 26/04/08 05:28 AM

The rational for having a .35 Whelen over, let's say, a .358 Win. or .350 Rem. Mag. is the ability to use larger bullets without losing needed powder capacity. The Remington twist rate is too slow to stabilize these longer, heavier projectiles. It's a pity, because medium bores from .338-06 through 9.3X62 are superior elk & moose rounds.

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Landy
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: jimincolo]
      #103559 - 26/04/08 08:31 AM

The limited market success of medium bores is a direct reflection of the limited oportunities for hunting and shooting suffered by many. If you have little chance to hunt any game above 300lbs. you gain little from the larger bore. If you can barely shoot enough to handle a .25 something a .35 something is not the way to go.

A certain market exist for big boomers for simply the experience or for braging rites. These milder mediums do not satisfy this "need".

The .33s-38s non or small (.350RM) magnums have and will always only occupy a niche of serious hunters and rifle loons. They will,however, continue to do it all a little bit better than either bigger or smaller, and I will continue to use mostly such rounds.

Unless blinded by these Hitlary images!

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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Landy]
      #103581 - 26/04/08 01:58 PM

No question the 35 Whelen is a unique cartridge that says something about the shooter--

Its primary competition is the 338 WM.So sad hunters want to ID with power and not efficiency--

I have a 30.06 mannlicher I am rebarreling to 35 Whelen.Wonder what the velocity will be out of a 20" barrel?Gonna be a great elk/moose/bear deep woods gun--

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Nakihunter
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103585 - 26/04/08 03:01 PM

Hopdoc, great idea of re-barreling your Mannlicher. I feel that the real competition for the 35 Whelen is the 9.3X62 which is virtually an improved case with a heavier bullet of "8 thou" larger diameter. The 9.3X62 would keep your rifle more consistent with its European heritage.

Good hunting.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #103599 - 26/04/08 08:36 PM

Good Thoughts!! I willconsider that!

From another forum--


Re: 9.3x62 Rifles [Re: sweet swede]
#532377 - Wed Apr 21 2004 07:17 PM

The 9.3x62 is roughly equivelant to a 36 "Whelen Improved". The shoulder is .102 forward of the 35 Whelen and has less taper. Case capacity is 74.87grs of water for the 9.3 and 72.63 for the 35.
Factory ammo is typicaly underloaded for the 9.3 in deferance to the older Mausers that can be found in this caliber. I beleive SAAMI spec for the 9.3 is 55K psi vs. 62.5k psi for the Whelen (you may want to double check these).
Judicious handloader can easily exceed 2600fps with 250gr bullets vs 225 for the Whelen, and 286gr bullets can be loaded to comfortably exceed 2400fps, so it is a good bit more potent than the Whelen.
Both Norma and Lapua make superb quality brass for the 9.3 at 50% higher prices than one would expect for whelen brass.
The 9.3 would be the world-wide choice and is a somewhat superior round. The 35 Whelen would be the all-american choice for those who don't handload.......DJ


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Edited by hoppdoc (26/04/08 08:46 PM)

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103600 - 26/04/08 09:10 PM

Some visual bullet comparisons--



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xausa
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103609 - 26/04/08 11:05 PM

I am having a .270 Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine rebored to 9.3X62, and have agonized somewhat over accomodating the rotary magazine to the larger neck and bullet diameter case. However, the gunsmith tells me that he can handle it. If worse comes to worst, there is an Austrian firm which still manufactures parts for the original M-S. Since I already own two .35 Whelens and a .35 Brown Improved Whelen (long story), I didn't feel the need to convert to that caliber.

I also own rifles in 9.3X57, 9.3X64, 9.3X72R and 9.3X74R, so I thought I needed to round out the collection.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: xausa]
      #103615 - 26/04/08 11:31 PM

The more I think about it the more I like the 9.3x62 in my mannlicher carbine with the 98 action.

I may go with the 9.3 and use the factory Norma vulcan bonded round.For handloading I would prefer Swift A Frames and they make a 250 gr and a 300 gr bullet.

Nakihunter-
Great tip to an american only thinking in terms of american cartridges!!!!

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103617 - 26/04/08 11:57 PM

Quote:

The more I think about it the more I like the 9.3x62 in my mannlicher carbine with the 98 action.



When you are done with that project, or before, find a nice-condition 6 lb Husqvarna M46 in 9.3x57.

If you do, I'm certain you will buy it.

For much of your woods hunting there in the South, I can't imagine a better rifle & cartridge.

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103629 - 27/04/08 03:11 AM

I know Donnley lists the capacity of the 9.3x62 as being 74.8gr.,however the two I personally measured that were fired in a factory 9.3x62 Styer, have 78.2gr. water capacity. This is identical to my current .375/06IMP if I use .35 RP Whelen brass and 80.0gr. capacity if I use WW '06 brass for either.
: Most .35 Whelen data is loaded to 1920 .30/06 spec. pressures fo around 49,000CUP near as I can figure, while the .338/06IMP is loaded to the much higher .270 Win levels. The difference in pressure is around 6,000 to 7,000PSI. This is why the .338/06 is shown to best the .35 Whelen with 250gr. bullets, which is impossible if both are loaded to the same pressure.
::: hoppdoc - The 9.2x62 would be a very good choice for your Mannlicher, however, so is the .35 Whelen. If loaded to normal for the US-type pressures, the 9.3 x 62 will beat 2,500fps with 286gr. quite easily, and will also do 2,650fps. with 270gr.Speers One only needs BLC2 for this venture, or H4895 Extreme for very slightly reduced speeds. This is why Scovill used the 9.3x62 case for the original .375 Hawk/Scovill. The shorter neck improved the capacity slightly and of course made it his case, rather that him merely building a .375 /06IMP with stndard .454" neck. The reason my .375/06IMP has greater capacity than a .375/06IMP, is it's .460" shoudler, .470" base and same neck as a 9.3x62. I believe the chamber was cut with the oversized Gibb's body reamer, then standard neck throater.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #103631 - 27/04/08 03:21 AM

I'm going to post another note here.
: If and when I build anther bolt gun, it will be a standard .35 Whelen. This is something I decided upon a year ago.
: The reason is that the .35 Whelen possesses all the power I need for the hunting I do with 250gr. bullets, kicks less than my improved .375 or the 9.3x62 for that matter. The 250gr. Speers work perfectly at 2,500fps on moose and bear and punch nice holes through deer. They are very accurate in most .358's. I could also make due with the 250gr. Hornady round nose for all hunting. It's flat enough shooting to my limit of 300yards and has a decisive 'anchoring" effect on moose. Come to think of it, my current 'new-to-me rifle does all that I need, exactly as provided above, using 225gr. swaged & 232gr. Normas; 270 Speers and 300gr. swaged Hornadys. It's a 9.3x57 Husky m46.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Landy
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #103650 - 27/04/08 08:19 AM

The 35s make "grouse loads" easy because of the wide variety of commercial bullets, and this and some African regulations may be the only real issues when choosing among the 33-38s.

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Landy]
      #103653 - 27/04/08 08:45 AM

Quote:

The 35s make "grouse loads" easy because of the wide variety of commercial bullets, and this and some African regulations may be the only real issues when choosing among the 33-38s.



To me this is one of the great features of the .35 Whelen, and the one that keeps tempting me to get one.

The huge number of .358 bullets available means farm chores, trapping, varminting and grousing are all easily done with the same rifle used for deer, elk and bear. My 9.3's do all that, too, but with a wee bit more effort to assemble loads.

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Landy
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103665 - 27/04/08 10:47 AM

9.3,

Yeah not all of us have the gear and know how to pour lead in anything handy (pistol cases) size and shoot them. I have yet to try them but I have some nice looking Mt. Baldy 270s for the 9.3X57. They seem to be well cast LBT LFN type cast in about 18BHN alloy. The person that emailed to confirm the order has an Husqy M46 himself and claimed that the bullets at the right speeds are great on small game or whitetails.

I have yet to hunt with my Husqy M46, but Daryl, the Mt. Baldy rep., and you certainly make it sound good. I like the feel and weight of the rifle very much. I see that you are working to convert Hoppdoc.

The Whelen or .350RM certainly can easily be a do it nearly all cartridge. The 9.3X57 may be a bit more of a niche player, but if I can assemble a good "grouse load" I can see it very at home in the heavy timber.

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Landy]
      #103670 - 27/04/08 11:15 AM

Convert Hoppdoc???

YES, the Good Doctor needs a 9.3x57 bad, along with his to-be .35.

Landy, I posted my recent cast bullet work on the Swede forum. Much easier than making pistol cartridge case bullets!

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=38874

The NEI bullet proved very accurate and when HP'd tested well in the boards and jugs. I shot a ground squirrel with one today which must be a sure test of its worthiness for deer! HA!

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Nakihunter
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103677 - 27/04/08 12:34 PM

Quote:

The more I think about it the more I like the 9.3x62 in my Mannlicher carbine with the 98 action.

I may go with the 9.3 and use the factory Norma Vulcan bonded round. For handloading I would prefer Swift A Frames and they make a 250 gr and a 300 gr bullet.

Nakihunter-
Great tip to an American only thinking in terms of American cartridges!!!!



You are welcome doc. Is your rifle a Mauser 98 with a "Mannlicher" type full stock or is it a Mamnlicher-Schoenauer action? If it is a MS action, I would stick to the Nosler manual velocities & not try to increase it. With a M98 action you can go 100 fps higher than the Nosler manual. John Barsness has done some good load development in his CZ550.

The Swift bullet is reputed to give lower velocities due to the sticky jackets. The Nosler partition 286 would be great & so also the Norma 286 gr, Lapua 286 gr & Woodleigh 320 gr!. I am also working with Barns 250gr TSX and the Nosler Ballistic Tip / Accubond at 2600 fps.

I am happy to share the data from my 95 year old Simson. I'll PM you some more info. You might like your "new" rifle so much that you may decide to take it to Africa next time!

I look forward to some pictures after the project is finished.

Happy hunting / shooting.

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #103725 - 28/04/08 02:48 AM

Grouse loads may be as close as a .375" Round Ball mould.
: Swaged to whatever size the throat is, ie: .367", .368", .370" - whatever - they can be set at the case mouth and held there by pressure into the case mouth. A few grains of 5744, worked up until reliable velocities and accuracy are abtained at 25 yards. I suggest starting at 10gr. - NO FILLER. This goes for either 57mm or 62mm case - or .358" Round Ball for any .358 calibre as well, .35 Rem though .358 Norma Mag.
: Round balls are fun, can be very accurate, kill bush 'chickens' well and can shoot very close to the sights in most rifles. When working up loads, if one sticks in the barrel from too-light a load, they are very easy to push out the bore with a normal rod, unlike longer bullets, but then, it doens't take much breech pressure for the gun to spit them out the muzzle. Target velocity is around 900 to 1,200fps. WW alloy works perfectly.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #103729 - 28/04/08 04:47 AM

I've had excellent results with fast pistol powders with such loads, using Unique and Green Dot mostly. 5744 burns much more slowly than such powders and I'm not sure a fellow could get satisfactory combustion with it with the ultra-light bullets like small caliber round balls, meaning there might be a bunch of unburned powder left in the bore.

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Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (28/04/08 05:06 AM)

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Con
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103732 - 28/04/08 07:04 AM

My reduced 358Win loads use a jacketed 158gr and Blue Dot. Perfect for small game, teaching youngsters to shoot a "bigbore" and plinking. The availability of cheap cast and jacketed .358" pistol projectiles in my mind is another major benefit for the 35s over say the 9.3 clan.
Cheers...
Con

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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Con]
      #103753 - 28/04/08 08:38 AM

Another possibility for powder tests is Trail Boss. It needs no fillers for ignition. Careful load workup is necessary. Lead bullets only, I would think.
: I have a can- may try some squib loads in the 9.3 with RB's. Will let you know the results.

Edited by Daryl_S (29/04/08 01:45 AM)

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albertan
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #104232 - 04/05/08 03:38 PM

Had the Whelen came out in the 1930's by Winchester it would be more popular than it is today. The powders were available for it then ( 4064, 4320, and 4895), and Roy Weatherby hadn't changed any minds yet. By the 1950's, shooters had changed. Powders like 4831 and 4350 had changed the playing field, and the riflescope made the playing field somewhat more even. Once the great .338 Winchester had arrived, the Whelen did not have a hope. The competition with the .338 Winchester and the .375 H&H was too great. Winchester backed the .338 and the .375. Loaded ammo could be purchased anywhere. The loading companies took note and delivered good bullets, and reloading equipment that extended their versatility. The Whelen had Remington dip their toe in the water at best. Too little, too late.

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moltogordo
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #108467 - 29/06/08 12:53 PM

Like most of you, I don't know. Perhaps the gunwriters have been too busy hyping overbore .30 calibre monsters, or other larger bores of limited use. They also seem to have abandoned the Whelen in favor of the similar .338-06, which doesn't have the frontal area. I know five or six guys with Whelens, and they all love them. My brother in law took a record book grizzly with one shot from a Whelen.

When I had a medium bore built up, I opted for a .375-06 improved, which I build up on the .35 Whelen case. It is about as large a diameter that is efficient in the 06 case, and I really wanted something different. I get 2600 and change with a 260 grain partition and about 2400 with a 300 grain Hornady, but I doubt that is really any better than the 2600+ a buddy of mine gets with his Whelen and 250 grain bullets.

Probably the lack of hype from gunwriters. While they haven't been unkind to the Whelen, neither have they said much about it.

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albertan
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: moltogordo]
      #108472 - 29/06/08 02:16 PM

When was the last time you saw a Remington executive go on any kind of hunt carrying a .35 Whelen? It has never happened and it never will. Boddington went North one time on a grizzly\caribou hunt and borrowed his guides .300 Winchester. That kind of ink doesn't do any cartridge any favours.

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xausa
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: albertan]
      #108480 - 29/06/08 03:20 PM

In my humble opinion the idea of putting the Remington name on a cartridge which had been around for decades has never worked. The first attempt was the .257 Roberts, which was loaded too short because of the magazine length of the rifles it was chambered for and never realized its full potential in a factory rifle. It wa eventually overtaken by the 6mm cartridges, primarily the .243 Winchester. Then there were the .22-.250 and the .25-'06, both of which are fine cartridges, but the folks who were aware of their good qualities already ahd them by the time Remington brought them out. The same is true of the .35 Whelen. Everything which could be said about it had already been said years ago and as a consequence there was nothing left to hype when it appeared on the scene.

The other problem was that it was offered in the wrong models. Like the Model 70 Featherweight in .358, the Remington 870 in .30-'06 kicks like a mule and the .35 Whelen is much worse. With a well designed stock and an appropriate overall weight, it is very pleasant to shoot, but not in those particular offerings. I own a Griffin & Howe Springfield .35 Whelen, a Neidner Springfield .35 Whelen, and a Griffin & Howe Model 70 Winchester .35 Whelen, plus a .35 Brown Improved Whelen on a 1917 Enfield action, and I enjoy shooting all of them, but all but one of them predated the Remington factory offering.

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Marrakai
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: xausa]
      #108497 - 29/06/08 07:46 PM

xausa:
You just brought a smile to my face, reminding me of Dean Grennel's experiences with the .35 Brown-Whelen, or "Boom-Wham" as he called it! Priceless!
Not a fan of recoil, the Dean....


Now back to the topic....

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Marrakai]
      #108501 - 29/06/08 10:48 PM

Xausa, 740/760 series rifles in .30-06, not 870. There are a few folks who swear by those rifles {a good friend of mine in particular} but as you say, heavy loads in .35 Whelen in a 760 would be unpleasant, especially with the 300 grain bullets. Of course, there is no readily available 300 factory ammo loaded, and the 200 and 250 grain bullets, frankly, do nothing a good 220 .30-06 load won't do.

But then, Remington ceased production of their superb 220 corelokt bullet in .30 cal, so we know how popular it must have been...

One of the things about American gun designers and Remington in specific that has always annoyed me is their marriage to slow twist rifling. No cartridge better displays this thinking than the .35 Whelen.

As for myself, I have always wanted a .35 Whelen built on a 1917 action {the P14/M17 is just about my favorite action tho I don't own one anymore}. And now, using the methods I've had success with resizing bullets from .375 to 9.3, filling the heavy gap in .358 bullet lineup would be a cinch using 9.3 bullets.

I sold my old Winchester 1917 to a buddy...I wonder what he wants for it...

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xausa
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #108503 - 29/06/08 11:06 PM

9Three,

Thanks for correcting me on the 870 blunder. I have never owned a Remington pump or semi-automatic rifle, but I did sight one in for a friend once and have never in my life felt more punished, shooting off the bench.

The twist issue dates back to the .250 Savage vs. .257 Roberts and the .243 vs. the .244, in both cases Remington looked at the .257 and the .244 as varmint cartridges and selected the twist suitable for for lighter bullets.

No explanation for the .35 Whelen twist, however.

On the other hand, the twist used by Winchester for the .458 is far faster than needed.

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: xausa]
      #108504 - 29/06/08 11:26 PM

Yes, the .250/3000, etc.

And now the .260 Rem; why a 1/10 I have no idea when 1/8 was the standard 6.5x55 twist.

A 1/8 twist .243 or 6mm Rem shooting 135 grain bullets would actually inspire me to try that cartridge, and a 1/8 twist .257 Roberts shooting 140's would be a peach for my purposes!

All those are excellent rounds as-is, but a quicker twist would IMO make them even better, and in most cases wouldn't hurt much if at all in accuracy with the lighter shorter bullets.

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mbogo3
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #157619 - 27/03/10 12:26 PM

Cause the 9.3x62 was doing the same thing better first.............Harold

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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: mbogo3]
      #157668 - 28/03/10 01:47 AM

As to rifling twist and the .35 Whelen, Remington has let this one flop all by itself & by Remington's usual disregard for what we feel is normal. By this I mean they consistantly bring out ctg. ill-equiped for what some people feel is the job at hand - this rifle has to slow a twist for 280 to 300gr. bullets, the .244Rem. had too slow a twist for 100gr. bullets, let alone the excellent 105gr. speer. This sort of thing is normal for Remington, is all. I'll be the .350 Rem Mag has the same slow twist, but having little or no use for heavy bullets, does not suffer.

On their side, they realize most/many Americans are velocity nuts and cannot take a poke in the shoulder, so they use light-weight bullets for the calibre thereby feeding both their 'normal' requirements. Reduced recoil and higher speeds. In this, the twist works just fine. Just look to the .338 Winchester Magnum - an excellent ctg. with 200 to 300gr. bullets. 300's didn't sell, so they are no more - BUT - we now have 165gr. and other lighter than 200gr. bullets for those who are recoil sensitive. How long will the 250gr. factory loads be available?

Some observations, is all.

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Paul
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #157728 - 29/03/10 12:14 AM

Yes, I'm disappointed Winchester have abandoned heavy bullets for the 338 mag, too.

I think it's got something to do with wariness of game since rangefinders as well as recoil.
What value 165-grain .338 cal bullets would have at long range compared with a 7mm mag's beats me, though.

I have fired a couple of those Remington 7600s in .35 Whelen and I liked them. I guess flinches are formed at the range but I can't imagine feeling any recoil when shooting at close-in critters you really want to get. Suggesting gel pads etc to people who've already decided they're chicken, may not help the .35 Whelen now but it's a great cartridge, esp. for anyone wanting a bear-worthy pumpgun or to rebarrel a rifle from another calibre based on the '06 case.

What shape were those .35 cal 275gr WTC bullets Elmer Keith liked so much? Assuming the Remingtons feed round-nose slugs OK, maybe Woodleigh could be prevailed upon to knock up some stumpy 275-grainers, short enough not to react to slow rifling within bush distances.

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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Paul]
      #157741 - 29/03/10 02:06 AM

The WTC bullets wehre quite streamlined for the day, I think. I remember them looking more like a tapered nose, almost Sierra-like spitzer, with a fairly wide nose - and hollowpointed? Memory is dim on this.
It's amazing how quickly a round nose gets out to 300 yards, and still smacks a whollop when it gets there. Too many people are hung up on stuff that doesn't matter, like foot pounds of energy. It's just a number to sell high velocity.

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Con
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Paul]
      #157751 - 29/03/10 06:03 AM

Quote:

... maybe Woodleigh could be prevailed upon to knock up some stumpy 275-grainers, short enough not to react to slow rifling within bush distances.



Woodleigh already has their PP configured 275gr, I was surprised by this projectile as I thought he was doing a RN which I'd have preferred as I feel they open faster and show more 'striking effect'.

But ... if you have a strong press, lube and a Lee sizing die in 0.358 and 0.357" ... you can push the Woodleigh 286gr 9.3mm through it and get your RN pill. I have a few to try. The bearing length increases significantly, but the long neck on the Whelen compensates perfectly.
Cheers...
Con

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86thecat
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Landy]
      #157765 - 29/03/10 02:03 PM

What really hurts Whelen sales is that it is considered by many to be a medium range cartridge. When someone steps up above 30-06 then the 338WM provides the power and a reputation as a long range cartridge.

The 30-06 is like your high school sweetheart.
The 35 Whelen is a nice girl with a good personality.
The 338WM is sexy with the right curves.
and
The 9,3x62 has an exotic Safari mystique.

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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 86thecat]
      #157819 - 30/03/10 03:29 AM

I kind of agree - but most people don't realize the Whelen can be loaded to within 100fps of the factory .338mag. with the same bullet weights, bullets of good Bal.Co. This is the fault, I guess, of Reminton, who kept pressure at the 1920 level of the .30/06, due perhaps to the pump and auto rifles it's chambered in.

In a bolt gun, it's a super ctg., even better as a .35 Whelen IMP - which will duplicate factory .338 mag's velocities.

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Con
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #157823 - 30/03/10 05:24 AM

Quote:

This is the fault, I guess, of Remington, who kept pressure at the 1920 level of the .30/06, due perhaps to the pump and auto rifles it's chambered in.



They weren't really in a position to do anything else. Early Springfield and 1895 conversions would have been in the back of their minds. Mine is an M17 Eddystone with rebored barrel done in 1978 and marked as a 35-06 Whelen. Remington did it no favour when they used the 1:16" and removed the component 250gr projectiles from the market.

But both 358Win and 35Whelen (and 35Rem) seem to have a bit more juice in the tank for the astute reloader with a modern bolt gun. Not that you need to chase the additional velocity for it to work!
Cheers...
Con

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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Con]
      #157957 - 31/03/10 10:47 PM

Quote:


Woodleigh already has their PP configured 275gr, I was surprised by this projectile as I thought he was doing a RN which I'd have preferred as I feel they open faster and show more 'striking effect'.






Thanks Con,
my edition of Frank O'Reilly's catalogue must have missed that one.

In regard to the 338 WM, I like it for sambar because it gives full .35 Whelen velocities without going much beyond the starting loads - and I don't like to push my luck too hard.

- Paul

Edited by Paul (31/03/10 10:50 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Con]
      #157962 - 01/04/10 12:09 AM

Quote:

They weren't really in a position to do anything else. Early Springfield and 1895 conversions would have been in the back of their minds. Mine is an M17 Eddystone with rebored barrel done in 1978 and marked as a 35-06 Whelen. Remington did it no favour when they used the 1:16" and removed the component 250gr projectiles from the market.
Cheers...
Con



I understand and appreciate your input, Con. I had forgotten about all those wildcats in the .35 Whelen. The trouble with wildcats are there are no firm standardization and chamber dimensions do wander around a bit.

As to the Eddystone, a buddy of mine uses the P-14's and P-17's for a manner of his rifles, from 9.5x68, several 6.5x68S's and 8x68S's. He has at least one Eddystone in 8x68S - not noted for being soft on pressure.

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Daryl


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458Shooter
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #159565 - 27/04/10 11:51 AM

I have had the 35 Whelen and got very good results with it, I picked up a nice BLR in 358 Win. I am currently working up some handloads for it to take hunting. I don't know why the 35's don't have a better following. Perhaps as the generations age a bit they will find out that big bullets doing moderate speeds knock things over without a lot of fanfare and gun rag writing. I have gone back to the older calibers such as the 7x57,303 British, 45-70, with the 358 Winchester as the relative newcomer. I have most of the worlds hunting covered with the calibers mentioned.
I have had a few of the "new" WSM calibers, I find them no better than the older calibers I have in the gunsafe.

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 458Shooter]
      #159610 - 28/04/10 02:29 AM

Modern inflated advertising, designed to sell NEW rifles and chamberings is sometimes difficult to resist, especially for the new/young shooters.

Hunters today are told they need the lastest craze in high velocity, big fat cases that have the ability to "kill game animals at 600yards". They fail to note that in most of the hunting areas in the States, Canada, Europe and Africa, game isn't killed past 100 yards and these wonderful lazer bolts of power aren't needed. Even if they did, that 'confession' would most likely fall on deaf ears.

The fact that they couldn't hit a animal the size of an elk at that range off the bags due to their inexperience means nothing to them; they dream of those 'long' shots across mountains or canyons. They are told they 'need' that rifle, hense anything else is deemed to be too 'old school' or inferior and thus is passed by.

Fin Agaard once wrote an article in a Handloader digest, or magazine, grouping rounds together as he saw them work in Africa. It was an eye-opener as to different round's effectiveness on these animals of chase. One soon learns that 100 fps here or there, or even 200fps and 100gr. weight means diddly-squat on actual game. The .35 Whelen, 9.3x62 and .375H&H were all very similar when the larger species of antelope were the quarry - all using appropriate bullets, of course. Close in there were the various 9mm and even the 8x60 ctg.

In retropect, one of the quickest killers on moose for me, was a Model 94 in .375 Winchester with a measly little 220gr. Hornady, loafing along at 1,940fps MV. Go figure. That round and loading makes the .35 Whelen look like an Elephant ctg. in comparrison. What I had in that rifle, is a round loaded to deliver perfect bullet performance with that bullet on those heavy animals and possessing the accurcy needed to place it in exactly the right spot for bang--flop performance.

If you are afraid of it because it bites you when sighting it in, the requisite accuracy for quick kills at any range is lost and no amount of foot pounds of energy is going to make up for it.

Of course, we all know this.

The .35 Whelen deserves greater popularity. Those who have them and use them, know how effective they are and aren't about to change to something 'new' just because of hype.

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Daryl


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Rule303
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #159647 - 28/04/10 08:34 PM

I would think that if you really wanted a bit more speed from the Whelen you need a long throat and a standard Rem 700 30-06 length action. The projectiles can be seated out a bit, work the powder loads up and end up not far off the 338WM velocities. Out to 300mts IMHO you don't need the extra velocity.

The English equivalent, the 350 Rigby magnum has been used to take elephant so the Whelen should have no trouble with most animals smaller than Buffalo. As Daryl and others have said it deserves greater popularity.

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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Rule303]
      #159806 - 02/05/10 01:51 AM

The renewed interest in this thread has helped me decide what to rebarrel that shot out 270 Model 70 I have into. Think I'll go with a 1/12 twist.

Edited by Woodbeef (02/05/10 01:53 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #159815 - 02/05/10 05:48 AM

Don't like to keep posting to this subject, but it is a calibre I really like - so.

Woodbeef, good choice - 12" will be fine for any bullet weight, but if you have the opportunity to use longer bullets, 280gr. pointed bullets or even heavier yet, it will probably provide an edge in accuracy.
The 300gr. bullets in .358 are quite 'special' RN or otherwise shaped.
For the heavier bullets, I'd probably go with an improved case and stick with the standard Whelen with 270's or lighter. In this one, a 14" is probably all that's really needed. My 9.3x57 has a 14" twist and puts 270gr. at 2,300fps as well as 286 @ 2,200fps and 300gr. at 2,175fps into 1-MOA groups at 100 meters. This calibre's bore diameter is the same as a .358" groove diameter, just as a .375 has a .366" bore diameter, normally. Only groove depth separates these three, in order.

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Daryl


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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #159816 - 02/05/10 06:03 AM

Woodbeef, can you get Prvi Partizan 285 grain .366/9.3 bullets up there? If so, they have pretty soft jackets and should be easy to size down to .358 for your .35 Whelen.

Those things have to be about the best bullet going for the .35 Whelen, sized down of course.

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #159856 - 03/05/10 01:06 AM

Hadn't thought of that Rod. Good idea and one I'd certainly do.
I have a set of CH4D .358 swage dies for handgun bullets that would work. back in the late 70's, I used them to actually swage some .375's down to .358 and it worked - also broke the Rock Chucker. Sizing the Privi down to .358 would be a snap with a couple stages in Lee's $25.00 custom sizer dies, say .361" and .357or8.

Sizing (drawing) the bullet down also seems to toughen the jackets slightly, which is a good thing. The 270gr. Speer is another I'd most certainly try. 2,450fps with that one in a standard Whelen would be a good ctg. for North America, I'd expect. or 2,600fps in an Improved case. Of course, drawing or sizing opens the door for a bunch of other bullets - 232gr. Vulcan or Oryx and all the other 285/6gr. bullets too.

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Daryl


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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #159857 - 03/05/10 01:25 AM

Quote:

Sizing (drawing) the bullet down also seems to toughen the jackets slightly, which is a good thing. The 270gr. Speer is another I'd most certainly try.



Yes, and this 270 would be a peach!

Really, the best economical .35 Whelen bullets available for elk & deer IMO are .366's! {...sized down, naturally}.

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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #163888 - 12/07/10 04:13 PM

Hi

Has anyone had any experience with the new Woodleigh 250 grain Protected Points in their Whelen?

I notice that the BC of these 250 grain projectiles has gone to 0.400 from 0.300 in the traditional round nose weld cores, by my calculation this is worth over 5cm or 2 inches at 300 yards if you begin with a MV of 2562 fps. It also appears to improve the terminal velocity from 1768 fps to 1950 fps for free. This could makes for far more consistant cross gulley shooting on sambar and reds!

Any thoughts?


Regards



McLeish

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Gordon
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Landy]
      #164312 - 16/07/10 07:34 PM

Living in Alaska, I have two .35 Whelens, A 98 Mauser with a 1-14 twist, and an H&R single shot with a 1-16 twist. I also have a Ruger .358 Win. with a 1-12 twist. The 1-12 twist is what I would build around if I were to start another .35 custom rifle.

Within a good stones throw, there are four of us who hunt with the .35 Whelen. It is effective, things stop happening more quickly than with lesser rounds, and good bullets are available in heavy weights.

I have a copy of Colonel Townsend Whelens book, Why Not Load Your Own, 1957, it lists loads for bullets to 300 grains, and he states, "The twist of rifling should be one turn in 14 inches."

I have had some stability issues with 300 gr. bullets with the 1-14 twist, and would prefer 1-12 for that, but I don't shoot them often. I do shoot 285 grain bullets, as that is what I normally carry hunting. They shoot 1 1/2" at 100 yards regularly off the bench with a Caldwell Lead Sled. You might be able to hold tighter with higher magnification, but I'm using 4X and bifocals. For me that is just fine.

As far as the 1-16 twist, I get my best groups with 225 & 250s with 270s coming pretty close. 280s and 285s start looking like shotgun patterns and the 285 gr spitzers are not stable at 200 yards, as they cut an oblong hole. The 280 gr round nose shoot Ok, but the 250 gr bullet is what that rifle shoots best.

If a tally of hunters in Alaska using the .35 Whelen were taken, I think it would be A very high percentage. Each year, I see hunters on the Kenai Peninsula hunting moose in brown bear territory with .35 Whelens. The same holds true for the interior, hunting caribou. The other animal you see hunters carrying the Whelen is for sitka blacktails. On places like Kodiak, shooting your deer is like Pavlov's bells to the brown bears. There you see some pretty big bore guns.

I guess to sum up my thoughts, the .35 Whelen has caught on, it is geographically popular for caribou, elk, moose, and other game where a bigger bore makes a difference.

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Gordon]
      #164335 - 16/07/10 11:07 PM

TKS for that post Gordon. While some ctgs. might seem of little popularity in small game territory, it is obvious what where the larger bullets are needed, they are used. It seems the .35 Whelen is alive and well in Alaska.

There are a few around here, but not many, with the odd .338/06 & .375/06IMP as well. Those who use these rounds for moose and bear, love them.

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Daryl


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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #164369 - 17/07/10 11:30 AM

I'll give one more place where I think the .35 Whelen excels, and that is for pig hunting in Georgia. (Mother and my sister live there) For a 90# pig going toward the grill, a .243, .30-30, .308, etc. will do fine.

I'm not saying I'll ever run into hog zilla or whatever you want to call them, but if I do, I'll probably be carrying my .35 Whelen because it does not damage as much meat as a .270, and I'm a whole lot more comfortable putting a 285 gr bullet into that trophy hog at any reasonable angle, than I would be anything smaller.

I'm not saying that a guy using using a .243 is under gunned, when hunting the 90# pigs, but am I going to believe that he will pass up a questionable shot with the small gun, on that big trophy hog? Since I have seen more than a few wounded hogs, I think a lot of folks using little fast bullets, would be better served using a bit bigger gun, and better bullets.

As for me, I find the .358 Win., and .35 Whelen suitable for little porkers as well as big ones. When that trophy presents itself, I feel confident that the .35 Whelen will get the job done.

Ok, I'll admit that my training as a child has swayed my selection of cartridges. My grandfather started me shooting a .38-55 Win. High Wall. I like big bullets, and my grandchildren have had the opportunity to shoot my .38-55, and many other over .30 cal rifles. Yes, they are cast bullet, grandchildren loads, but it is what they need to start a life long love affair with shooting. Sure some of the children will buy magnums, but maybe they will find their way back to a .38-55 or .35 Whelen as they find most shots are taken at 100 yards and less.

Hi Daryl,
Thank you. I appreciate your input. Is a 9.3X62 really a .35 Whelen Improved with an odd size bullet?

--------------------
Gordon Dempsey

Edited by Gordon (17/07/10 11:33 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Gordon]
      #164406 - 18/07/10 01:55 AM

The '06 IMP case has the same capacity as a standard 9.3x62.

One chart I've seen, had the shoudler of a 9.3x62 at .450" to .452". That puts it .004 smaller than an '06 IMP, however - I've measured 2 different 9.3x62 rifle's fired brass and they both run .454" at the shoulder, which is the same as an improved '06 case.

There is a shorter neck on the 9.3x62 case thna an improved '06 with a 40 degree shoudler, whereas the 9.3x62 has a 17 degree shoulder, and the 9.3 also has a larger base than the '06. Both of these measurements, larger base by .004" pluss a slightly shorter neck combine to increase it's capacity to the same as an improved '06, whether it is necked to .358", .366" or a .375".

My first 9.3x62 used my old .375/06IMP brass form my first such chambered rifle, by merely necking them down to hold a .366" bullet and fireforming them. They fit perfectly and re-formed without case loss.

The larger bullet diameter of the 9.3 allows slightly higher velocities than the .358 - both virtually on the same case, with the .375 on that case delivering the highest speeds - same bullet weight.

My Oberdorf Mauser 9.3x62 delivered 2,675fps with 270gr. and 2,519fps with 286's from it's 22" bl.

My current .375/06IMP gets 2,740fps with 270's (sounds like H&H factory to me) as well as 2,470fps with 300's using Varget, H4895 and BLC2.

The Whelen .35 IMP should run 2,650fps quite easily with 250's - perhaps 2,700fps with careful loading of the correct powders. One MUST know what one is doing.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Isopeura
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #234578 - 23/08/13 05:22 PM

Let's raise this topic a bit.

I have been a fan of "9mm family of rifle cartridges" for a long time. I've used 9,3x62, .375 H&H and .35 Whelen on moose and I have lately come to like the .35 Whelen the best. I'm from Finland, so here 9,3x62 is one the most popular moose cartridges and .35 Whelen is somewhat anomalous cartridge. Majority of the moose is hunted with .30-caliber guns but the next most popular caliber group is 9,3 mm. I think it should be .35 Whelen.

Personally I like .35 Whelen the best for several reasons. First of all, you have endless supply of brass and you can choose the best brand from large number of manufacturers. Second very important factor is that the most common bullet weights are a tad lighter than in 9,3 mm - this brings .35 Whelen to the general purpose cartridge range. It is therefore more useful than slower bullets.

I personally think that .35 Whelen suffers a lot from the anemic loads and load data of the past. When using modern powders and common sense in loading a bit hotter loads (still safely, of course), this cartridge throws bullets at very respectable speed. My current loads are 225 gr Nosler Accubond, 225 gr Sierra Gameking and 250 Nosler Partition. 225's are at the same velocity range as standard .30-06/180 gr factory loads and 250 gr Partition is at the same velocity range as .308/180 gr factory loads. To me, this means enough punch and very good all around usability.

When it comes to bullets, I prefer .35 over 9,3 because of this reason. 225 and 250 gr .35 bullets are real big game bullets as in 9,3 mm most of the lighter bullets are meant for roe deer size game. This means that in 9,3 mm cartridges one has to use 250-286 gr bullets to get the same terminal performance as in .35 Whelen. In my experience this means a bit less velocity and more challenges in cartridge reloading. By no means I say that 9,3 mm is not good, I'm just saying that .35 Whelen is a bit more generally useful and practical in diverse hunting situations.

My favorite .35 Whelen powder nowadays is Hodgdon Varget. It has proved to be very accurate and it provides very good velocities with sensible pressure levels. It is also easy to reload as one doesn't need to use compressed loads with it. It also performs very well in cold weather which is important in places where I hunt.

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Lix
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Isopeura]
      #234587 - 23/08/13 08:49 PM

Very much a fan of the 35W. Mine is a Brno that started life as a 270 and was converted by the previous owner to the Whelan. It may not be pretty but it is a joy to carry, and shoots very well indeed. I have settled on 225gn partition as my general use projectile, pushed by 53gr of AR2208. I have not chronied it but the book says some where around 2500 fps. It is certainly good medicine for camels and pigs.

Alex

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Rell
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Lix]
      #234593 - 23/08/13 11:29 PM

Love the cartridge. I have a Ruger#1 takedown in 35 Whelen. Right at 6.75 lbs with a Leupold 1.5-5x20 and seatbelt nylon sling.

It is one of those rifles you love but shot like drak with almost very bullet/load, 2.5 moa. I was given some 225 Sierra boat tail game kings and it became a true 1 inch wonder. It has a 22 inch barrel but I can only get those 225gr loads up to 2450fps. With 250 keeping it above 2250fps is a problem. I'm using RL15, rem cases and Fed GM LR.

It's given good service over the years. A few little moose, a couple of caribou and a black bear. Very effective but I can't say it does anything better then a 30-06 with good 180gr. I think the reason it's still pretty obscure is that the 30-06 does almost everything a 35 Whelen can do and the 06 is easier to shoot, cheaper, and has the edge past 250 yards.

That being said I don't own an 06 but have a 358 Win, two 356Wins, 35 Whelen, two 338 Federals and a 9.3x62. Also a 9.3x74r on order.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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CZ_hunter
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Reged: 08/07/13
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #234615 - 24/08/13 06:13 AM

I have never had the feeling the 35 Whelen never caught on. I have read many times articles written by recognized personalities (such as C. Boddington etc.) about hunting in US and there have been praises about how the 35 Whelen do well when hunting moose, hogs etc. Actually I think it is well thought out cartridge with long neck that can swallow long bullets such as 275 or 280 grainers with ease. I think it was an intention when the cartridge was once designed - just heavy bullets for reliable penetration generating moderate recoil. From this point I like it better than the 9.3x62 which has a fairly short neck but fits in standard rifle action. The 9.3x62 is here fairly popular and I wonder how much it spread in recent years in US.
Regarding the 358 caliber my baby is definitely the 350 Rigby Magnum which is perfect with 275 - 300 gr bullets.
For me it is a fine combination for heavy game in Alaska and nondangerous game in Africa.


CZ

--------------------
CZ

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taw1126
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Rell]
      #235034 - 03/09/13 12:52 PM

Quote:

Love the cartridge. I have a Ruger#1 takedown in 35 Whelen.



Rell- you have any photos of that rifle? I'm a sucker for takedowns (my all-around rig is switch-barrel 30-06 & 9.3x62 on a Mauser action) but I don't think I've ever seen a Ruger #1 takedown.

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: CZ_hunter]
      #235072 - 04/09/13 01:20 AM

One nice aspect of the .35 Whelen, is bullets can be made from .30 MI Carbine brass. A slight length trim and you have a tapered RN 300gr. bullet for the .35 Whelen - or trimming further, nay weight you want.

Since the working pressure of many modern rounds is 64,000 to 65,000psi using standard, ie: .06 brass, there is no reason the .35 Whelen cannot be loaded to it's full potential.

As has been noted before, A-Square's proprietary ctg. the ,.338/06(same case) has a SAAMI standard pressure of 65,000PSI - then check out the .270 Winchester - another at 65,000PSI, both having the same case and case taper. The .338/06 has listed data for 250's running 2,650fps. If the .35 Whelen is loaded to the same pressure, it will exceed the .338/06- physics is at work here. Judicious loading can considerably improve the .35 Whelen's ballistic compared to Remington's anemic factory loadings.

The round deserves to be more popular. The Sierra 250gr. BT seems to be a good one, as-is the 225 BT for longer range shooting.
Barnes has 180 and 200gr. "X"-type bullets. The 180's can be driven to 2,965fps at a listed 51,900PSI and the 200's hit 2,800fps at 52,400psi - quite a distance off the usable maximum.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #235118 - 04/09/13 10:48 PM

Daryl what you have said is certainly food for thought. May have to see what I can achive with my Whelen latter in the year.

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mart
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Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Rule303]
      #235226 - 06/09/13 05:20 PM

Haven't posted in a long time but ran into this discussion about my favorite round. About 12 years ago I picked up a 1941 model 70 that had been converted to left handed. It was chambered in 30-06 and I knew it was going to have to be my long desired 35 Whelen. I had always admired the round and had wanted one since my youth. Now after 12 years I admire it as much or more than ever. Mine was rebored by LaBounty with a 1-14 twist. It shoots any 250 grain bullet like a varmint rifle.

It's hard to say why it hasn't caught on more than it has. Certainly the folks that have them, love them. I have for all these years run 250 grain bullets, usually Partitions, in mine. It has downed three caribou, all very expeditiously. I recently stumbled into a little over 400 of the old Hornady 275 grain bullets. Initial tests with them are looking good. My standard load with the 250's has always been 56 grains of 4320 for a velocity of 2550-2600 fps. I'm anxious to see what the 275's will do.

I like my Whelens so much, both the 35 and 400, that my lefty 375 H&H is up for sale. It never sees any use since I have it bracketed by Whelens. If I can score the right action, I'll build the in between brother, the 38 Whelen or 375 Whelen as it is commonly known. If pressed to choose only one rifle for North America it would be the 35 Whelen.

Mart

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