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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #103725 - 28/04/08 02:48 AM

Grouse loads may be as close as a .375" Round Ball mould.
: Swaged to whatever size the throat is, ie: .367", .368", .370" - whatever - they can be set at the case mouth and held there by pressure into the case mouth. A few grains of 5744, worked up until reliable velocities and accuracy are abtained at 25 yards. I suggest starting at 10gr. - NO FILLER. This goes for either 57mm or 62mm case - or .358" Round Ball for any .358 calibre as well, .35 Rem though .358 Norma Mag.
: Round balls are fun, can be very accurate, kill bush 'chickens' well and can shoot very close to the sights in most rifles. When working up loads, if one sticks in the barrel from too-light a load, they are very easy to push out the bore with a normal rod, unlike longer bullets, but then, it doens't take much breech pressure for the gun to spit them out the muzzle. Target velocity is around 900 to 1,200fps. WW alloy works perfectly.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #103729 - 28/04/08 04:47 AM

I've had excellent results with fast pistol powders with such loads, using Unique and Green Dot mostly. 5744 burns much more slowly than such powders and I'm not sure a fellow could get satisfactory combustion with it with the ultra-light bullets like small caliber round balls, meaning there might be a bunch of unburned powder left in the bore.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (28/04/08 05:06 AM)


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Con
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103732 - 28/04/08 07:04 AM

My reduced 358Win loads use a jacketed 158gr and Blue Dot. Perfect for small game, teaching youngsters to shoot a "bigbore" and plinking. The availability of cheap cast and jacketed .358" pistol projectiles in my mind is another major benefit for the 35s over say the 9.3 clan.
Cheers...
Con


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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Con]
      #103753 - 28/04/08 08:38 AM

Another possibility for powder tests is Trail Boss. It needs no fillers for ignition. Careful load workup is necessary. Lead bullets only, I would think.
: I have a can- may try some squib loads in the 9.3 with RB's. Will let you know the results.

Edited by Daryl_S (29/04/08 01:45 AM)


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albertan
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #104232 - 04/05/08 03:38 PM

Had the Whelen came out in the 1930's by Winchester it would be more popular than it is today. The powders were available for it then ( 4064, 4320, and 4895), and Roy Weatherby hadn't changed any minds yet. By the 1950's, shooters had changed. Powders like 4831 and 4350 had changed the playing field, and the riflescope made the playing field somewhat more even. Once the great .338 Winchester had arrived, the Whelen did not have a hope. The competition with the .338 Winchester and the .375 H&H was too great. Winchester backed the .338 and the .375. Loaded ammo could be purchased anywhere. The loading companies took note and delivered good bullets, and reloading equipment that extended their versatility. The Whelen had Remington dip their toe in the water at best. Too little, too late.

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moltogordo
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #108467 - 29/06/08 12:53 PM

Like most of you, I don't know. Perhaps the gunwriters have been too busy hyping overbore .30 calibre monsters, or other larger bores of limited use. They also seem to have abandoned the Whelen in favor of the similar .338-06, which doesn't have the frontal area. I know five or six guys with Whelens, and they all love them. My brother in law took a record book grizzly with one shot from a Whelen.

When I had a medium bore built up, I opted for a .375-06 improved, which I build up on the .35 Whelen case. It is about as large a diameter that is efficient in the 06 case, and I really wanted something different. I get 2600 and change with a 260 grain partition and about 2400 with a 300 grain Hornady, but I doubt that is really any better than the 2600+ a buddy of mine gets with his Whelen and 250 grain bullets.

Probably the lack of hype from gunwriters. While they haven't been unkind to the Whelen, neither have they said much about it.



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albertan
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: moltogordo]
      #108472 - 29/06/08 02:16 PM

When was the last time you saw a Remington executive go on any kind of hunt carrying a .35 Whelen? It has never happened and it never will. Boddington went North one time on a grizzly\caribou hunt and borrowed his guides .300 Winchester. That kind of ink doesn't do any cartridge any favours.

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xausa
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: albertan]
      #108480 - 29/06/08 03:20 PM

In my humble opinion the idea of putting the Remington name on a cartridge which had been around for decades has never worked. The first attempt was the .257 Roberts, which was loaded too short because of the magazine length of the rifles it was chambered for and never realized its full potential in a factory rifle. It wa eventually overtaken by the 6mm cartridges, primarily the .243 Winchester. Then there were the .22-.250 and the .25-'06, both of which are fine cartridges, but the folks who were aware of their good qualities already ahd them by the time Remington brought them out. The same is true of the .35 Whelen. Everything which could be said about it had already been said years ago and as a consequence there was nothing left to hype when it appeared on the scene.

The other problem was that it was offered in the wrong models. Like the Model 70 Featherweight in .358, the Remington 870 in .30-'06 kicks like a mule and the .35 Whelen is much worse. With a well designed stock and an appropriate overall weight, it is very pleasant to shoot, but not in those particular offerings. I own a Griffin & Howe Springfield .35 Whelen, a Neidner Springfield .35 Whelen, and a Griffin & Howe Model 70 Winchester .35 Whelen, plus a .35 Brown Improved Whelen on a 1917 Enfield action, and I enjoy shooting all of them, but all but one of them predated the Remington factory offering.


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Marrakai
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: xausa]
      #108497 - 29/06/08 07:46 PM

xausa:
You just brought a smile to my face, reminding me of Dean Grennel's experiences with the .35 Brown-Whelen, or "Boom-Wham" as he called it! Priceless!
Not a fan of recoil, the Dean....


Now back to the topic....

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Marrakai]
      #108501 - 29/06/08 10:48 PM

Xausa, 740/760 series rifles in .30-06, not 870. There are a few folks who swear by those rifles {a good friend of mine in particular} but as you say, heavy loads in .35 Whelen in a 760 would be unpleasant, especially with the 300 grain bullets. Of course, there is no readily available 300 factory ammo loaded, and the 200 and 250 grain bullets, frankly, do nothing a good 220 .30-06 load won't do.

But then, Remington ceased production of their superb 220 corelokt bullet in .30 cal, so we know how popular it must have been...

One of the things about American gun designers and Remington in specific that has always annoyed me is their marriage to slow twist rifling. No cartridge better displays this thinking than the .35 Whelen.

As for myself, I have always wanted a .35 Whelen built on a 1917 action {the P14/M17 is just about my favorite action tho I don't own one anymore}. And now, using the methods I've had success with resizing bullets from .375 to 9.3, filling the heavy gap in .358 bullet lineup would be a cinch using 9.3 bullets.

I sold my old Winchester 1917 to a buddy...I wonder what he wants for it...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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xausa
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #108503 - 29/06/08 11:06 PM

9Three,

Thanks for correcting me on the 870 blunder. I have never owned a Remington pump or semi-automatic rifle, but I did sight one in for a friend once and have never in my life felt more punished, shooting off the bench.

The twist issue dates back to the .250 Savage vs. .257 Roberts and the .243 vs. the .244, in both cases Remington looked at the .257 and the .244 as varmint cartridges and selected the twist suitable for for lighter bullets.

No explanation for the .35 Whelen twist, however.

On the other hand, the twist used by Winchester for the .458 is far faster than needed.


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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: xausa]
      #108504 - 29/06/08 11:26 PM

Yes, the .250/3000, etc.

And now the .260 Rem; why a 1/10 I have no idea when 1/8 was the standard 6.5x55 twist.

A 1/8 twist .243 or 6mm Rem shooting 135 grain bullets would actually inspire me to try that cartridge, and a 1/8 twist .257 Roberts shooting 140's would be a peach for my purposes!

All those are excellent rounds as-is, but a quicker twist would IMO make them even better, and in most cases wouldn't hurt much if at all in accuracy with the lighter shorter bullets.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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mbogo3
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #157619 - 27/03/10 12:26 PM

Cause the 9.3x62 was doing the same thing better first.............Harold

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: mbogo3]
      #157668 - 28/03/10 01:47 AM

As to rifling twist and the .35 Whelen, Remington has let this one flop all by itself & by Remington's usual disregard for what we feel is normal. By this I mean they consistantly bring out ctg. ill-equiped for what some people feel is the job at hand - this rifle has to slow a twist for 280 to 300gr. bullets, the .244Rem. had too slow a twist for 100gr. bullets, let alone the excellent 105gr. speer. This sort of thing is normal for Remington, is all. I'll be the .350 Rem Mag has the same slow twist, but having little or no use for heavy bullets, does not suffer.

On their side, they realize most/many Americans are velocity nuts and cannot take a poke in the shoulder, so they use light-weight bullets for the calibre thereby feeding both their 'normal' requirements. Reduced recoil and higher speeds. In this, the twist works just fine. Just look to the .338 Winchester Magnum - an excellent ctg. with 200 to 300gr. bullets. 300's didn't sell, so they are no more - BUT - we now have 165gr. and other lighter than 200gr. bullets for those who are recoil sensitive. How long will the 250gr. factory loads be available?

Some observations, is all.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Paul
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #157728 - 29/03/10 12:14 AM

Yes, I'm disappointed Winchester have abandoned heavy bullets for the 338 mag, too.

I think it's got something to do with wariness of game since rangefinders as well as recoil.
What value 165-grain .338 cal bullets would have at long range compared with a 7mm mag's beats me, though.

I have fired a couple of those Remington 7600s in .35 Whelen and I liked them. I guess flinches are formed at the range but I can't imagine feeling any recoil when shooting at close-in critters you really want to get. Suggesting gel pads etc to people who've already decided they're chicken, may not help the .35 Whelen now but it's a great cartridge, esp. for anyone wanting a bear-worthy pumpgun or to rebarrel a rifle from another calibre based on the '06 case.

What shape were those .35 cal 275gr WTC bullets Elmer Keith liked so much? Assuming the Remingtons feed round-nose slugs OK, maybe Woodleigh could be prevailed upon to knock up some stumpy 275-grainers, short enough not to react to slow rifling within bush distances.


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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Paul]
      #157741 - 29/03/10 02:06 AM

The WTC bullets wehre quite streamlined for the day, I think. I remember them looking more like a tapered nose, almost Sierra-like spitzer, with a fairly wide nose - and hollowpointed? Memory is dim on this.
It's amazing how quickly a round nose gets out to 300 yards, and still smacks a whollop when it gets there. Too many people are hung up on stuff that doesn't matter, like foot pounds of energy. It's just a number to sell high velocity.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Con
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Paul]
      #157751 - 29/03/10 06:03 AM

Quote:

... maybe Woodleigh could be prevailed upon to knock up some stumpy 275-grainers, short enough not to react to slow rifling within bush distances.




Woodleigh already has their PP configured 275gr, I was surprised by this projectile as I thought he was doing a RN which I'd have preferred as I feel they open faster and show more 'striking effect'.

But ... if you have a strong press, lube and a Lee sizing die in 0.358 and 0.357" ... you can push the Woodleigh 286gr 9.3mm through it and get your RN pill. I have a few to try. The bearing length increases significantly, but the long neck on the Whelen compensates perfectly.
Cheers...
Con


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86thecat
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Landy]
      #157765 - 29/03/10 02:03 PM

What really hurts Whelen sales is that it is considered by many to be a medium range cartridge. When someone steps up above 30-06 then the 338WM provides the power and a reputation as a long range cartridge.

The 30-06 is like your high school sweetheart.
The 35 Whelen is a nice girl with a good personality.
The 338WM is sexy with the right curves.
and
The 9,3x62 has an exotic Safari mystique.


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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 86thecat]
      #157819 - 30/03/10 03:29 AM

I kind of agree - but most people don't realize the Whelen can be loaded to within 100fps of the factory .338mag. with the same bullet weights, bullets of good Bal.Co. This is the fault, I guess, of Reminton, who kept pressure at the 1920 level of the .30/06, due perhaps to the pump and auto rifles it's chambered in.

In a bolt gun, it's a super ctg., even better as a .35 Whelen IMP - which will duplicate factory .338 mag's velocities.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Con
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #157823 - 30/03/10 05:24 AM

Quote:

This is the fault, I guess, of Remington, who kept pressure at the 1920 level of the .30/06, due perhaps to the pump and auto rifles it's chambered in.




They weren't really in a position to do anything else. Early Springfield and 1895 conversions would have been in the back of their minds. Mine is an M17 Eddystone with rebored barrel done in 1978 and marked as a 35-06 Whelen. Remington did it no favour when they used the 1:16" and removed the component 250gr projectiles from the market.

But both 358Win and 35Whelen (and 35Rem) seem to have a bit more juice in the tank for the astute reloader with a modern bolt gun. Not that you need to chase the additional velocity for it to work!
Cheers...
Con


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Paul
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Con]
      #157957 - 31/03/10 10:47 PM

Quote:


Woodleigh already has their PP configured 275gr, I was surprised by this projectile as I thought he was doing a RN which I'd have preferred as I feel they open faster and show more 'striking effect'.







Thanks Con,
my edition of Frank O'Reilly's catalogue must have missed that one.

In regard to the 338 WM, I like it for sambar because it gives full .35 Whelen velocities without going much beyond the starting loads - and I don't like to push my luck too hard.

- Paul

Edited by Paul (31/03/10 10:50 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Con]
      #157962 - 01/04/10 12:09 AM

Quote:

They weren't really in a position to do anything else. Early Springfield and 1895 conversions would have been in the back of their minds. Mine is an M17 Eddystone with rebored barrel done in 1978 and marked as a 35-06 Whelen. Remington did it no favour when they used the 1:16" and removed the component 250gr projectiles from the market.
Cheers...
Con




I understand and appreciate your input, Con. I had forgotten about all those wildcats in the .35 Whelen. The trouble with wildcats are there are no firm standardization and chamber dimensions do wander around a bit.

As to the Eddystone, a buddy of mine uses the P-14's and P-17's for a manner of his rifles, from 9.5x68, several 6.5x68S's and 8x68S's. He has at least one Eddystone in 8x68S - not noted for being soft on pressure.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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458Shooter
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #159565 - 27/04/10 11:51 AM

I have had the 35 Whelen and got very good results with it, I picked up a nice BLR in 358 Win. I am currently working up some handloads for it to take hunting. I don't know why the 35's don't have a better following. Perhaps as the generations age a bit they will find out that big bullets doing moderate speeds knock things over without a lot of fanfare and gun rag writing. I have gone back to the older calibers such as the 7x57,303 British, 45-70, with the 358 Winchester as the relative newcomer. I have most of the worlds hunting covered with the calibers mentioned.
I have had a few of the "new" WSM calibers, I find them no better than the older calibers I have in the gunsafe.


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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 458Shooter]
      #159610 - 28/04/10 02:29 AM

Modern inflated advertising, designed to sell NEW rifles and chamberings is sometimes difficult to resist, especially for the new/young shooters.

Hunters today are told they need the lastest craze in high velocity, big fat cases that have the ability to "kill game animals at 600yards". They fail to note that in most of the hunting areas in the States, Canada, Europe and Africa, game isn't killed past 100 yards and these wonderful lazer bolts of power aren't needed. Even if they did, that 'confession' would most likely fall on deaf ears.

The fact that they couldn't hit a animal the size of an elk at that range off the bags due to their inexperience means nothing to them; they dream of those 'long' shots across mountains or canyons. They are told they 'need' that rifle, hense anything else is deemed to be too 'old school' or inferior and thus is passed by.

Fin Agaard once wrote an article in a Handloader digest, or magazine, grouping rounds together as he saw them work in Africa. It was an eye-opener as to different round's effectiveness on these animals of chase. One soon learns that 100 fps here or there, or even 200fps and 100gr. weight means diddly-squat on actual game. The .35 Whelen, 9.3x62 and .375H&H were all very similar when the larger species of antelope were the quarry - all using appropriate bullets, of course. Close in there were the various 9mm and even the 8x60 ctg.

In retropect, one of the quickest killers on moose for me, was a Model 94 in .375 Winchester with a measly little 220gr. Hornady, loafing along at 1,940fps MV. Go figure. That round and loading makes the .35 Whelen look like an Elephant ctg. in comparrison. What I had in that rifle, is a round loaded to deliver perfect bullet performance with that bullet on those heavy animals and possessing the accurcy needed to place it in exactly the right spot for bang--flop performance.

If you are afraid of it because it bites you when sighting it in, the requisite accuracy for quick kills at any range is lost and no amount of foot pounds of energy is going to make up for it.

Of course, we all know this.

The .35 Whelen deserves greater popularity. Those who have them and use them, know how effective they are and aren't about to change to something 'new' just because of hype.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rule303
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #159647 - 28/04/10 08:34 PM

I would think that if you really wanted a bit more speed from the Whelen you need a long throat and a standard Rem 700 30-06 length action. The projectiles can be seated out a bit, work the powder loads up and end up not far off the 338WM velocities. Out to 300mts IMHO you don't need the extra velocity.

The English equivalent, the 350 Rigby magnum has been used to take elephant so the Whelen should have no trouble with most animals smaller than Buffalo. As Daryl and others have said it deserves greater popularity.


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