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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5290
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93673 - 07/01/08 01:48 AM

Quote:

More opportunity for the trial lawyers.




I beg your pardon. While lawyers may have roles as prosecutors and in defense of charged infractions, it's ludicrous in extreme to envision this new and absurd regulation as a bonanza for lawyers. Has the non-toxic shot regulation been a boon to lawyers? I certainly think not.

Tho only opportunity here accrues to the anti-hunting and anti-gun special interests. They are the enemy, not lawyers. Keep your focus.

Curl

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RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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9.3x57
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: CptCurl]
      #93682 - 07/01/08 02:15 AM

Quote:

Tho only opportunity here accrues to the anti-hunting and anti-gun special interests. They are the enemy, not lawyers. Keep your focus.

Curl




I stand corrected as to the proper nomenclature of the lawyers at issue.

Curl, I mean no disrespect but take even a short look at the process of wolf recovery in the West {and bear/cougar hunting bans and/or restrictions, etc} and you too will modify your statement, I suspect, somewhat drastically. Your term, "bonanza", aptly describes the carnival-like history {on-going} of wolf recovery, yet another wildlife management absurdity aggravated by constant obfuscations by the various pro-wolf groups as represented by the legal profession. I am not intending to denigrate attorneys, I am stating a fact.

As identified by RIPP, the devil is in the details and the details will be worked out by herds of attorneys over the coming years. If you look back some years at the process of the introduction of the lead shot ban, I think you might have to modify your statement there, too. However, the litigious nature of our society, and opportunities for litigation, have changed over the years. This thing will be a mess in my opinion, a mess dumped out on the floor of the courts. Definitions of where the ban takes effect, the possibility for unintentional misuse of ammunition inside banned areas for non-hunting use {protection of livestock, etc}, the use of banned ammunition on private property for a variety of purposes, the definitions of what types of ammunition are legal, acceptable and available, the cost burden for implementing the ban, the legal burden for the state to enforce it, all of thse things burdens will be gladly borne by the legal profession.

When I shoot a sheep in the head with a 9mm for the purpose of butchering it, and I dump the bulleted head and offal on "the back 40" of my ranch, who will I turn to to ask whether this is "allowed"? I bet such things haven't even been thought thru, and who do you think will "help" me and "them" think these things through? The county court clerk? Will I merely read the state code and make a decision for myself? I have many reasons even here in Idaho to seek legal counsel for activities on my own ranch so I readily admit the need for attorneys.

I ask quite honestly and with absolutely no malicious intent: Do you suppose this ban will diminish such questions for a private property owner in the ban areas of California? Will the ban ease the workload of the "profession" or add to it?

My focus is totally clear; the source of this problem is not "attorneys", but it is certainly possible that the only group {animal or human...} that will benefit by it is attorneys.

I think most of us would agree that the condors in the animal kingdom won't be benefiting by it.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93706 - 07/01/08 07:57 AM

It will benefit a hell of a lot of bureaucrats, but mostly the anti-gun and anti-hunting pressure groups who initiated it. Those groups are the ones who achieved their objectives. The condors gain nothing.

Within the last 20 years or so, all jurisdictions passed laws to define, prohibit, and punish computer crimes. Those laws did not exist prior. By your argument the legal profession should uniquely benefit. Not so.

Lawyer bashing normally arises in the context of tort litigation. I suppose there are some notable excesses in that realm. The public fails to recognize that the excesses are the product of only the most narrow cut from the profession.

For every John Edwards there are thousands of practitioners who work hard every day making their livings a little at a time while providing valuable and honest services to the public. At the end of the year, the average lawyer has made no more than a skilled tradesman working a union job in a factory, and with a lot less job security. Believe me, because I know.

Don't resent or disparage another man or another class of workers without knowing the truth of your premise. At the same time, I accept that you intended no offense, and I have taken none.

I invite you to come follow me for a week if you want to know what the practice of law is all about. I dare say you will go home with a different view.

Curl

P.S. This is a gun and hunting forum. I have said my last on the topic of lawyers.


--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by CptCurl (07/01/08 08:00 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: CptCurl]
      #93708 - 07/01/08 08:37 AM

Curl, no offense, none was ever intended.

As for walking a day with attorneys, in point of fact I do so nearly every day, and 3 good friends of mine are attorneys, as well as a favorite uncle who, now retired, was a juvenile court judge.

I doubt there is a fellow here on this forum who hasn't had reason to seek counsel from an attorney, and attorney-bashing was NOT my point nor my intention. I am sincerely sorry if that was how it sounded to you, or if that is what my post implied or sounded like to others.

I meant no disparagement toward attorneys in-general, but if that is what I did, in the same way you disparaged another, to use your words, "class of workers" yourself; "bureaucrats", in the same way I did lawyers, I suppose. But heck, I cannot disagree with you on that score. Look, let's face it, you and I are both right in that attorneys and bureaucrats WILL be the only ones to benefit {if that is the right word...} from this lead thing.

The whole nonesensical issue is I suspect a red herring. The discussion of the law and its relation to these issues is spot-on topic! I'd hope that some attorneys who are members of this Forum would offer services to those fighting the ban and explanations for those of us observing it.

The condor issue is like so many others; at first blush and to the uninformed they appear to be about "wildlife", or "the environment", or other scientific topics where professionals in those disciplines could pool their skills and knowledge and make a plan. But very soon it becomes obvious to the most casual observer that the issues slip from the realm of science to a battle over the nuances of the law, and it is attorneys who are called in to do much of the scrapping, and not for free. In our fight against so-called "wolf recovery", I am very glad for the existence of "the attorney class" and I hope the fellows down in California will retain sound counsel in their fight against this lead bullet ban. But I can't help but state that I am troubled by the fact that these issues arise and become legal messes, and as you say, fodder for bureaucrats and as I say, fodder for the lawyers to fatten themselves up on.

A discussion about the law and how it applies to the condor/lead bullet issue IS THE TOPIC. And lawyers as much as or more than scientists will take center stage in hashing this thing out.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Bramble
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: NitroX]
      #93713 - 07/01/08 09:10 AM

Quote:

Quote:

93x57

FMJ ammo on ranges is because of the way our law is written. Ammunition designed to expand is all section 5 (effectivly banned) this restriction can be lifted by specific permission for those who wish to hunt deer and have access/permission to do so on sutible land. Expanding ammunition is specifically precluded for target shooting, except for its use in zeroing a hunting rifle.




Is there any logic behind the prohibition? I would have though FMJ's have an increased chance of ricochet?




Logic ????? Not a hope in hell


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93715 - 07/01/08 09:41 AM

9ThreeXFifty7,

No problem. I know you meant no offense.

Ripp and others, sorry for the thread hijack.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
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Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: CptCurl]
      #93721 - 07/01/08 10:56 AM

Lawyers??
The only ones I like are those that are paid to protect my interests!!

Very Very, tough profession to prosper in, as I have several friends practicing general law.Unless your a trial lawyer and hit a home run pickins are slim indeed--


This anti lead bill needs further scientific evaluation-Lead from hunters weapons?? This is an antihunter/antigun wacko's wet dream.Stop all the lead bullets, the sky is falling!!Where's the hard data with actual game animals??


Next they will be wanting to ban lead handgun ammo due to "possible" hazards to humans. I have handloaded and shot buckets of handgun ammo and my lead level is virtually ZERO. Any type of safety preacautions and this risk is minute indeed.

Lead poisoning from game animals?? SHOW ME!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
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Loc: South Carolina
Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: hoppdoc]
      #93727 - 07/01/08 12:26 PM

Clearly this is an anti-gun / anti-hunting measure. At this point, I'm so fed-up with the NRA I want to quit. But, that will serve nothing. The NRA does not pull weight like it used to mostly because the so-called conservatives have sold out to the Democrats in a sad attempt to save their little war in Iraq.

Me thinks gun rights have taken not the back seat, but the trunk (boot) for the next few years.


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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: Bramble]
      #93770 - 07/01/08 09:05 PM

Quote:

Even more perversley we may not posess expanding ammunition in calibers for which no use exists within the united kingdom. So it is not legal to possess soft point in the large NE and rimless calibers unless you can get somebody to give you permission to hunt deer with them in the UK. And as most land does not have the safety distences required and most landowners will not allow deer to be shot over open sights it is almost impossible to get permission to have the ammo in your possession. It is not possible (specifically prohibited by law) to give permission for the possession of ammo to be used in another country even if the laws of that country permit it, if such ammo cannot be also used in the UK.



My understanding is that it is not the expanding ammo that is a problem, rather the calibres themselves. UK firearms law is so perverse that it is almost impossible to get a licence for any calibre over .375 for the reasons you state, rather that any specific legal restriction. The wording of the law is "interpreted" by the police according to the Home Office guidelines (which can and have been challenged legally).

However, the permission for expanding ammo is not calibre specific, and you should not need separate permission for each rifle - once you have it for one, it applies to all. Therefore it would be theoretically possible to get a large calibre for target rifle shooting (for use on a range that does not have energy/calibre restrictions) and legitimately use expanding bullets for zeroing (assuming someone will sell them to you). However, unless you had that rifle sanctioned for deer/vermin shooting, you would be unable to hunt with it in the UK (I even had the police try to tell me that somehow they could restrict my use of a 375 in Africa too under UK legislation!!).

No, there is definitely no logic to UK firearms legislation!


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