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reflex264
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Reged: 20/01/08
Posts: 50
Loc: TN

Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: xring]
#95015 - 23/01/08 12:59 PM

http://www.marlinowners.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=22083&highlight=458

http://levergunlovers.com/viewtopic.php?t=1061

http://levergunlovers.com/viewtopic.php?t=2652

http://levergunlovers.com/viewtopic.php?t=2737

http://www.marlinowners.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=17305

Please read all before passing judgement. reflex264

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JabaliHunter
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Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: DarylS]
#95043 - 23/01/08 10:44 PM

Quote:

It surprises me no end to read where guys would take on buff with a 9.3 with factory ammo, yet shun the more powerful round just because it's not a bolt gun or $20,000 double.
: Adequate bullet, velocity and accuracy are the only criteria necessary. Perhaps those who fight against this round and the .45/70 merely reflect their feelings of inadequacy in the accuracy department - maybe I'm just full of it - hahahaha!

Clearly things are possible with modern steel and 45/70 handloads today that were not possible 50 or 100 years ago - your experiments show that.
Its a similar story with the .458 Win's chequered reputation - no doubt its a great round today, but all the writers blow on about the Lott as if powders and technology have stood still all these years...
Whether either is the best choice is a different question though

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DarylS
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Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: JabaliHunter]
#95045 - 24/01/08 12:20 AM

Anyone who would say the .45/70 is 'better' than a .458 WM or any other of the more powerful rounds is being a mite silly.
; My problem is with people who look at 405gr. bullets at 1,320fps or 500gr. bullets at 1,210fps, who judge the round by those black powder ballistics and will not look at what the round has become in modern guise. It is difficult, I suppose, for people with little or no experience with these rounds, to access them in thier 'new' light.
: reflex264 - thankyou for showing us the work you've done - excellent - it's a lot of work to test as you've done. I am really amazed as the good showing of the light for calibre 300gr. Nosler. I had never considered it a viable weight in .458 calibre.
: The bullets that really have me interested, is full power loadings in both .45/70 and .450 Marlin with the 350gr. "X" and newer 350gr. TSX bullets as well as the 350gr. Speer FN. I think, if driven to 2,100fps or a bit more, they'd make a good show. This may be too low a velocity for the "X" bullets to expand past calibre, though.
: The Lyman cast bullet #462560, a flat nose design with large meplat weighs 560gr. in WW metal from my mould and should also put in a good showing. I was able to drive it to 1,850fps in the .458 2" using H4198 and could have added another 100fps with slower powders, I think. It's nose is too long for the lever guns, unfortunately.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hoppdoc
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Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: JabaliHunter]
#95046 - 24/01/08 12:23 AM

Not to stir up another sh*tstorm but I would rather have a 458 Lott than 458 WM shooting similar bullets at the SAME VELOCITY.

I feel the 458 Lott would have lower pressure and be better in the African heat.Yes, I know you can load the 458WM hot as snot and get close to the Lott, but I would rather have the lower pressure Lott round.

Have I taken the 458Wm to Africa?? NO--I have no actual experience to base this on. just a gut feeling. And yes, I own a 458WM!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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DarylS
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Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: hoppdoc]
#95048 - 24/01/08 01:15 AM

I can see where you're coming from, hoppdoc - but - you'd choose the Lott over the WM due to the pressure difference. This is saying the WM, although producing 2,150 to 2,200fps with 500gr. bullets, is making too much pressure, while a .375H&H or .416Reminton, producing 8,000PSI more pressure than the .458, is OK?
; With today's Extreme powders, the pressure rise in African heat becomes pretty much a non-deal - especialy with a round that developes such low pressure (55,000PSI) to start with - the .458 WM.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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JabaliHunter
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Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: DarylS]
#95050 - 24/01/08 02:43 AM

Quote:

Anyone who would say the .45/70 is 'better' than a .458 WM or any other of the more powerful rounds is being a mite silly. My problem is with people who look at 405gr. bullets at 1,320fps or 500gr. bullets at 1,210fps, who judge the round by those black powder ballistics and will not look at what the round has become in modern guise.

Agreed

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JabaliHunter
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Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: hoppdoc]
#95051 - 24/01/08 02:50 AM

I haven't shot the Lott, but I have shot the Win. I'd be happy with either and wouldn't feel handicapped by either. Most of the folks I know in Zim and SA have Wins too...
Daryl's point is fair - yes there may be a pressure difference, but does it really matter in today's bolt guns? Or even Mauser 98s? In a double, I'd probably feel happier with the Lott, but neither would be my first choice of calibre in a double anyway!

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500grains
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Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: JabaliHunter]
#95055 - 24/01/08 03:53 AM

A few years ago there was a guy running around internet forums advocating 12 ga. buckshot for everything up through and including elephant. I doubt he had ever shot anything bigger than a dog with buckshot before, or he would not have been pushing it with such zeal.

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Sarg
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Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: 500grains]
#95067 - 24/01/08 09:32 AM

Daryl

Heres a 400gr old style X bullet from a Buffalo found "in" (not under) the skin on the far side ,
45-70 18in barrel old model H&R low pressure gun ,maybe 1750 fps tops for 400gr in this gun !
I must say I don,t like the X bullet on small game ,I have found it a slow killer ,& petal loss is common on close shots , Fail Safe are crap on BIG game, I have found petals in the skin on the entry wound on Bantang which has a thin skin ( 300gr 375 H & H )I had to stop it with 458 Win (Again)!

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reflex264
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Reged: 20/01/08
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Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: Sarg]
#95078 - 24/01/08 12:37 PM

I am the last person in the world to start an on-line fight. I just like getting at the truth without bias. What I have found and am still finding are things aren't always what they seem to be. I have a pile of testing to do with many different bullets and cartridges. On the agenda is more work with the .458 and .460 Weatherby. If I had to name two bullets from any cartridge at this point as one being the best expanding bullet and one the best solid it would have to be the .416 Nosler Partition fired from any of the .416s at 2350fps and the 400gr Hornady encapsolated solid at the same velocity. The partition when fired faster leaves a larger initial cavity but doesn't penetrate as far. This being said I haven't seen what the .458 solids do from the .460 Weatherby yet. Now do we have to have the best when there is something that performs nearly as good even though it isn't supposed to? I hate to see Randy Garrett's name smeered especaily by hunters that have never used his ammo. I am not saying that everyone should run out and buy a 45-70 and his ammo but I will be the first to say that what info I have been able to gather on his ammo in the field has all been very good. Penetration has always been good even on buffalo. If you have a .375, .416 ,.458 or even a .600 Nitro by all means use it. They are all great and all get it done but don't discount to quickly things you haven't tried. reflex264

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hoppdoc
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Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: DarylS]
#95087 - 24/01/08 08:00 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but like a lower pressure 416 Rigby the Lott can be run similarly so that the 500 gr runs at 2150-2200 at Rigby pressures instead of the max 2300+fps at 416 Remington pressures.The 458 WM has to be run at 416 Remington Mag pressures to get 2150+. We have previous threads where 416 Rems froze up in the heat of Zim and similar articles in African Hunter Magazine.

The 470 NE is an institution at 2150fps on DG and I would love to have a low pressure bolt round(well maybe not THAT low pressure) going the same velocity.If I have to run a 458WM at 416 Remington pressures to do 2150+, I don't want that in Africa. I want a 458 Lott at 416 Rigby pressures(less pressure)and 2150fps velocity(? a better mousetrap).Don't want to take a chance on the big gun freezing up in 130 degree weather with DG charging!!!

Cartridge Pressures can rise substantially with temperature. Ever had one freeze up in the chamber?? You can carry a hot rod 458 WM but I would carry a downloaded 458 Lott every time if no Double were available!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (24/01/08 08:03 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: hoppdoc]
#95103 - 25/01/08 04:19 AM

The .458 Win Mag does not run at .416 Rem pressures, but some 8,000PSI lower - as I indicated above. It takes some 65,000 or more PSI to freeze an action. It is inconceivable for the .458WM to reach even remotely close to that pressure level - nadda - won't happen unless some fool did the loading.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: Sarg]
#95107 - 25/01/08 05:05 AM

Sarg - thanks for the pictures of the 400gr. "X". We've found the "X" does very well on our large game, but then there have been some 'run-offs' with less than good shooting to blame, when guiding, as with any bullet. The run-offs were aways collected within 150 yards, however which does speak well for the bullet's long wound channel.
: I didn't think the .400gr. "X" would expand as well as it did with such low velocity. It normally takes a very 'soft' normal bullet to work at those speeds - the 405gr. Rem and Winchester origianl .45/70 bullets come to mind. Such performance from the "X" are actually amazing.
: For me, the "X"'s main 'forte' is in the small bores at very high velocities, of course, like my daughter's .260 CLC.
: The Bantang experience just goes to show the higher velocity numbers generally require a correctly designed bullet for the game. All-round performance from a single projectile is rare. The 270gr. Partition might come closer than many, but then the new TSX 235gr. needs further testing in that regard.
: I wonder how that bantang would have reacted to your H&H with 400gr. Speer FN. bang/splat? Does the apparent failure of the Failsafe or "X" 300gr. mean the .375 isn't capable of killing that animal quickly, of course not, but there are those who might argue that point based on a single failure - against all common sense.
: Proper bullets, proper powders - it all makes a difference.
: Can't help thinking about J. Taylor's liking for that old Martini - 480gr. paper patched bullet at 1,380fps.
: We tend to forget how the large calibres with their black powder ballistics worked on the buffalo - it's written that the most buffalo were killed with military .50/70 carbines and rifles - that's only a 450gr. bullet at about 1,150fps to 1,260fps - but - it was .50 cal. and THAT made a difference in itself. I've a picture of some soldiers butchering a buffalo, with a .50/70 Sharps laying against it's hide. There are 7 dead buffalo in the single picture. Guess they air-lifted them in for the 'shot'. [;)]

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: DarylS]
#95124 - 25/01/08 08:46 AM

Daryl,

Did you mean 400 gr Speer in 45-70 H&R (not H&H)? if so, yes Bang/splat ,but I think they are a little soft for the real big stuff ,back then I could not get many good bullets for the 45-70 ,I think I would try a Swify A frame in 450gr if you can get them ? @ 1800 + fps ,Now days we don,t need to do that & the 458 Win is great on all of the big stuff,I think most of these folk read too many stories ,because the 458 Win is plenty ,it,s just plain with no story selling ability (only bad stories ) I,m sure Australia is as hot or hotter then Africa and not frozen guns there ,don,t get me wrong I like the Lott ,just don,t need it !

No dam spell check !!

Edited by Sarg (25/01/08 12:50 PM)

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hoppdoc
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Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: DarylS]
#95131 - 25/01/08 10:04 AM

Daryl --

Sorry to annoy but I think the max loadings of both the 416 Remington AND the 458WM are close at 54,000 CUP.Unless I am in error the 65,000 for the 416 Remington may be referring to PSI not CUP.

http://www.larrywillis.com/windex.html

and

http://kwk.us/pressures.html

Unless I an mistaken this suggests that a max loaded 458WM and 416 Remington Mags run at the same high pressures.

I still want that downloaded 458 Lott if I am hunting in 130 degree heat!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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DarylS
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Re: "45-70 is the way to go from Ele to T Rex " [Re: hoppdoc]
#95914 - 04/02/08 08:06 AM

hoppdoc - No problem, however the .458 WM vs. .458 Lott is another thread and another 'emotional' non-worthwhile topic that has been beaten to death.
; It's interesting that the people who have used these rounds on African or North American big game speak highly of them both- the .45/70 and .458 Win Mag. It's the people, some of whome actually hunt or shoot, with no experience with either ctg. but have such strong oinions against them both - interesting.

Edited by Daryl_S (04/02/08 08:11 AM)

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