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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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RLI
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem?
      #41680 - 16/11/05 12:14 PM

My brother in law wants a new 223 for fox and hare and is looking at the CZ 527 but is on a budget ,he can get a CZ for $1090 from Frank O'Rieleys in Melbourne but same shop is pushing a Browning A-Bolt in .223WSSM for $590 a good price and a well designed cartridge but he does not reload and the price of .223WSSM is cheaper than .223Rem but I think the cartridge will be a commercial flop (in Australia) and ammo sure to rise to extremely expensive in a few years , I have advised to get the CZ .223Rem but the price is tempting on the Browning as his budget is tight. Any suggestions on the right rifle to get?

Steve



--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: RLI]
      #41694 - 16/11/05 01:36 PM

If on cartridge choice alone I would get the .223 Remington.

(actually I strongly prefer a .222 myself)

I think you are right, for a non-reloader I am sure he will have trouble getting loaded ammo in the future. The reason they are cheap is probably they are hard to sell - rifles and ammo.

If he goes the WSSM, buy a huge case of loaded ammo!




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John aka NitroX

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tinker
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: RLI]
      #41695 - 16/11/05 01:39 PM

Why not the .22 magnum?
With the little rimfire round there'll be plenty of killing power and accuracy within a hundred meters, all with little to no pelt damage.
You can get a wonderful rimfire rifle for little money too.


Just wondering...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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RLI
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: tinker]
      #41709 - 16/11/05 03:13 PM

.22Mag is ok to about 100 yards but we shoot at times 150-200 yards + , that is where the .223 is better then again my .270Win starts to look good at these ranges

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

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mickey
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: RLI]
      #41719 - 16/11/05 04:38 PM

Over here it is a no brainer, the .233 Rem Reloads run
$125/m and it is good stuff. You can buy a lot of ammo for $500 and if needed, a new barrel.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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303
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: RLI]
      #41725 - 16/11/05 06:56 PM

223 is a good cliber i used one for ages on roos and had no problems so for foxes and hairs though i do like 222 better the 223rem is your best bet

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Taos
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: mickey]
      #41748 - 17/11/05 04:27 AM

Some friends and I have played with several .22wssm's. They got great velocity but shots would not stay in your hat at 100yds. This in Win rifles and Browning. We finally gave up on them after trying everything that came to mind. I think I would stick with the .223.

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DarylS
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: RLI]
      #41765 - 17/11/05 08:07 AM

Steve -
The .223WSSM is a round in the .220 Swift class of velocity/bullet weights. It will literally blow foxs into 2 pieces, just as a Swift will, with many loads.
: There is no comparrison on small fur bearers. Better for fox, is a CZ .17Rem with factory 25gr. Hornady HP's.
: Inside 300yds. even the .223 is a bit rough on hides.
: Darn good price on the Browning, though - but .223-town, it isn't. Brass is expensive and so is the ammo. .223 ammo is cheap in comparrison and fully capable of ripping up a fox with it's 800fps lower velocity.
: If you want some small-bore shooters opinions, go to www.saubier.com and ask this same question.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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500Nitro
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: DarylS]
      #41769 - 17/11/05 08:26 AM

Daryl_S

Why do you want to keep the pelts - are they worth something
over there ?

Most people here don't keep the pelt and so to most of us
al we want is a dead fox.

500 Nitro

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WyoJoe
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: RLI]
      #41772 - 17/11/05 09:17 AM

Why not get the .223 WSSM? For the difference in price he could get started reloading and have a few $ left over.

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There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular -- but one must ask, "Is it right?"

Martin Luther King, Jr.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #41793 - 17/11/05 12:09 PM

In reply to:

Poster: 500Nitro
Subject: Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem?

Daryl_S

Why do you want to keep the pelts - are they worth something
over there ?

Most people here don't keep the pelt and so to most of us
al we want is a dead fox.



If it is a good winter pelt I try to keep the pelt.

When visiting Konopiste Castle in the Czech Republic I noticed hundreds of these really cool taxidermied head mounts of foxes.

Also in Hluboka (splg?) Castle and the Hunting "Lodge" nearby a lovely fox pelt rug made out of hundreds of foxes in a huge circle radius pattern.

A couple of lifetime ambitions of mine.




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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rgp
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: RLI]
      #41798 - 17/11/05 12:20 PM

Steve,

I would prefer the .223 Remington myself, simply for logistical reasons, because there is no guarantee that the WSM cartridges will be on the market in a few years, and if discontinued you have either a useless rifle or a very expensive to feed rifle.

Also something to consider if it isn't too hard to feed in Australia...I think CZ 527's are available chambered in .22 Hornet and if you aren't limited to the two choices you mentioned, my preference for a .22 centrefire would be the Hornet.

Richard

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luv2safari
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: NitroX]
      #41804 - 17/11/05 12:39 PM

Aside from the triple duce having a bit longer neck, facilitating reloading a bit, I have always wondered why people favored it over the 223? I'm not picking a fight, and am asking only out of lack of any experience shooting the 222. Why is is magic, while the 223 is ordinary? I have had a couple of 223 that just made a bit bigger hole as I shot it all day long...nothing wrong with that. One was a Remmy 788 out of the box with a 10X Weaver and was about the most accurate rifle I've ever shot.

John, I know you favor the 222; educate me...

L2S

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Hunt with Class and Classics

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: luv2safari]
      #41810 - 17/11/05 02:04 PM



Triple-2 is sexy.


2 - 2 - 3 is mundane, boring, military, spartan, reminds me of a M16 ......................... etc


No real reason, I'm just very picky and eccentric!


But I also regard the .222 as too much gun for fox pelts, damage to rabbits, hares etc. So why increase the velocity and increase the damage? As for kangaroos, the .223 in my opinion is not enough gun, a .22/250 or .220 Swift or a .243 is much more ideal. So it is neither here nor there.

My .222 is also the first style model of the Remington 788, weighs a tonne, ugly as hell, but extemely accurate. Five shot groups in almost one bullet hole, when I used to be able to concentrate on pieces of paper.

Also m first rifle.

That may answer your question above too!



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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RLI
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Reged: 01/10/03
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: NitroX]
      #41813 - 17/11/05 02:53 PM

Thanks everyone for the replies, I think the CZ 527 in .223Rem is the one only because of more common cartridge and lower price of ammo and better for the shooter who does not reload. The price of ammo in the future is the big cosideration for instance some rifles I have in fox or bigger calibres

5mm Remington Magnum (ammo not made anymore)
.22 Savage Hi-Power, Norma make it but very expensive
.225 Winchester, ammo not made anymore

I believe the .22WSSM will join the above but if you reload and like exotic to extinct calibres (me!) thats great but for the non reloader on a budget a common rifle with common ammo is the way to go. Thanks again for the advice


Steve

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

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DarylS
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #41854 - 18/11/05 05:44 AM

Yes - fox cannot be shot over here unless on farm land by the landowners or by someone with a trapper's licence. On the other hand, coyotes and wolves are fair game for any hunters, within the bounderies of their respective open seasons.
: One other note, the .223WSSM has a very thick neck, which does cause some handloading problmes.
: I-too perfer a simple .222, well know for exceptional accuracy and fully able to match factory .223 with handloads, especialy today with the powders available.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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HiWall
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: DarylS]
      #41912 - 19/11/05 07:44 AM

I haven't yet seen or heard of anyone owning one of the WSSM's around here and think the huge drop in price on rifles chambered in them shows they are not succeeding in the local market.

One of the problems I see is that should you decide to rebarrel in another calibre you are basically limited to one of the other WSSM's. The shorter than short action and magnum boltface are pretty restrictive.

Should I ever (and I doubt it) look at replacing my Brno .22 Hornet the CZ527 in .204 Ruger would be at the top of the list of contenders.

Limited to the mentioned choices I would go with the .223

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500Nitro
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: HiWall]
      #41914 - 19/11/05 10:47 AM


The huge drop in price of the Brownings was partly caused
by Winchester (Olin) here in Australia advertising products
(ie the guns) in the WSM and WSSM calibres up to 2 years
before they actually got here.

OK, it's good marketing practice to generate demand but
to create demand and not have product to sell is crazy.
And on top of that the demand was then satisfied by the
Weatherby's, Tikka's, Howa's et all which also ended up
being cheaper as the price had dropped.

In addition, mounts aren't yet available for the guns anyway.

Winchester would have been better dropping the price of the
ammo or bundling gun bags, mounts, scope, ammo etc as
all they have done is killed the market for the next few years
for any rilfe with Browning on it and also killed the second hand
market values.

500 Nitro

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Bushie
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #41927 - 19/11/05 02:47 PM

The Browning is very cheap but you would have to be a reloader to consider it . If you bought enough brass up front to allow you to wear out a couple of barrels and then throw the action away it may be alright . Seems like the WSSM's are going the same way as the Dodo and brass may become very scarce .
Also beware that stainless Brownings have a reputation for buggering up the action threads when barrels are unscrewed .
If a tight budget is the problem there are certainly cheaper .223's around than the CZ .
Savage make a model 16FSS in stainless and a model 11F in blued with pillar bedding and accutrigger .Nothing more to spend and have a great reputation for accuracy . Weatherby and Ruger also make well priced .223's .
Nothing against CZ . I have a CZ 527 and like it a lot . I spent an extra $160 to have it bedded and the trigger smoothed up though .

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RLI
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: Bushie]
      #41928 - 19/11/05 03:07 PM

I like the CZ 527 as it is designed for the .222/.223 type cartridges, Weatherby,Savage etc are all modified from .308 length action, Ithink CZ are the only ones who do this maybe Sako not sure,

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rgp
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: HiWall]
      #41932 - 19/11/05 03:56 PM

I only know a small sample of humans, but nobody I know in the USA has purchased any of the WSSM chambered rifles. They talk about it a lot and repeat the sales pitch mentioned in the magazine articles. I'm certain some of the rifles are selling somewhere, because there seems to be plenty of discussion about them, but when it comes time to part with some hard earned money, everyone I know seems to buy something that has been on the market for a long time.

Richard

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: RLI]
      #45391 - 31/12/05 02:19 PM

Get yourself a 22 Hornet and get a gunsmith to K it for you.

The are brilliant on fox and hare with minimumal skin damage.

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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DarylS
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #46032 - 08/01/06 06:51 AM

For a Long range fox load, the CZ 527 in .22 Hornet will allow using up to 14.4gr. Lil'Gun powder in R-P brass with pistol primers and 40gr. bullets. The velocity of this load runs well over 3,300fps. I've used it on Columbia Ground Squirrels to 454 yards and it is effective as well as on coyotes to 200yards. The accuracy of this load is sub 1/2" for any and all of the 40gr. bullets available.
: In my CZ Euro Lux model with thin barrel, a single shot from 7 different loads with 3 different bullet weights from 35gr. to 45gr. all printed in one 1/2" group. Velocities ran from 3,100fps to 3,387fps. My brass lasted over 14 shots and is still in good shape. I sold the barrel to a friend at over 5,000rounds. It was sitll shooting in the 1's and 2's with Barnes 40-gr. HP's.(that's .1" to .3" at 100 meters)
: The CZ, Ruger and possibly Ancheutz are the only .22 Hornets suitable for the load listed above. For WW brass, subtract 1/2 to 3/4 gr. for max capacity loads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Plains99
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: RLI]
      #46410 - 12/01/06 02:51 AM

I couldn't agree with you more. Might as well learn to reload the .223WSSM cause if there was ever a flop waiting to happen in the cartridge world this is one of them. I think the thing is strictly for gun magazine fad shooters. I use the .223 extensively in Western Kansas for everything from jack rabbits to coyotes and it is hard to beat especially for the price of ammo. I also have a .222 in a Tikka combo gun and it performs nicely as well... but it is more expensive to shoot. It is difficult to justify reloading .223 here because we have access to 20 round boxed ammo for $3.50 that performs very well in most situations and for premium ammo it is only $12.00 which is only shot in the field for long range coyotes. It may be a crappy military round but it is an excellent varmint choice.

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siacci
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Re: What is better .223WSSM or .223Rem? [Re: RLI]
      #46598 - 14/01/06 11:52 AM

Ruger and Weatherby have cheaper 223REM rifles. Both around the $600 mark. I bought a Tikka recently in 223 for $870. I do reload but wanted to stick with tried and tested. The other choice I would have gone for was a .204 but again tried and tested cal was my criteria. We shoot a lot of foxes during the day with the whisle and blast them with the 223 and no we dont keep the pelts. The 223 destroys them good and proper.

Dave

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