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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
"Would you shoot it?"
      #342068 - 10/06/20 10:34 AM

Ive taken to ask that question of sellers on auction sites. Recently I was looking at an older gun (damascus barrels), that the seller went on and on about how tight the action was and how great the barrels were and how they passed the ring test with tight wood, no wobble. and and and.

He responded that the gun was in great shape. I asked again if he would shoot it. He responded that the gun was really nice but 100 years old. I asked again, saying all I was interested, was his assessment since he had the gun and I had only his description and pictures. I told him that I would have it inspected when it arrived but that I didnt want to have to sent it back if it wasnt safe. He became mad and called me an A$$. He actually used the dollar signs which made me laugh.

Honestly I "Knew" after the first email that there was a problem; but I was kinda pissed that a seller wouldnt give a simple answer, even if it was a qualified answer, like "with the right loads". Finally I told him not to contact me any further, which he took to say that I was harassing him.

I think the question is fair of all sellers. Either they are selling shootable guns, that they would shoot themselves OR they are selling unsafe wall hangers. In most cases I get a good affirmative answer or and explanation of the issue. The question is no different than asking if a painting is original. A simple yes or no seems fair....especially so when listing as "no returns"

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3612
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: "Would you shoot it?" [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342070 - 10/06/20 11:41 AM

Interesting topic. Good question.

Living in Australia's far north means that most firearms offered for sale are a long way from an inspection, usually several thousand kilometres, so my "question" is always about sending it back if not as described.

If the issue is one that the average seller might not have recognized, I am happy to freight back at my expense. Accepted cost of living in the Top End. If the seller was dishonest, I would be seeking freight reimbursement, with threats of taking it further if necessary.

Over the last 40 years or so I have only had to do that once!

Items listed for auction are a whole new ball-game of course. I never bid unless I trust the auctioneers, or am prepared to accept the worst-case scenario.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9095
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: "Would you shoot it?" [Re: Marrakai]
      #342076 - 10/06/20 01:37 PM

thats the best way in live " am prepared to accept the worst-case scenario"

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39983
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: "Would you shoot it?" [Re: lancaster]
      #342082 - 10/06/20 06:30 PM

"Is it safe? Would you shoot it?"

Sounds a bit like a litigious question.

Nowadays people sue when they blow themselves up by poor use, overloading, getting plugs in barrels etc etc. Firearms makers face a lot of liability because of this and not just their own standards.

Is it safe?

Depends on the circumstances. Up to the user

Is it safe with factory loads?

I believe it is.

Would you shoot it?

Yes I have.

Or no I have never shot it.

Or I have never shot it. But I believe I would with proper loads.

Why not just ask the question:

Is is a shootable firearm or just a wall hanger?

I have a Martini-Cadet which I bought as a wall hanger. But I think, I believe I may be able to shoot it one day.

I have my old Grandfather's shotgun which might not be shootable safely, but we certainly did shoot it a lot. Twist spiral or damascus barrels, rattles a bit with rust tumbling around in between the barrels under the rib. I probably would still shoot it, but the proper ammo, not the usual stuff.

"The firearm is being sold as described. Let the buyer beware. "

A seller is not obligated to answer any other questions. Buy or not buy. The buyers choice. If it is true to description it is a proper sale.

Want to sue afterwards? "The firearm is being sold as described in writing. Let the buyer beware. "

Selling something which the owner KNOWS is unsafe and dangerous is something completely different. Unless sold as a wall hanger only. If someone then shoots it and is hurt, their problem.

I was given, a .410 single barrel shotgun of my grandfathers by my Uncle. A son of a cousin possibly wants it. I think it may be unsafe. I probably would not GIVE it to him if I think it is unsafe. He doesn't have a firearms licence. I may check it out by shooting it with a piece of string. I think it uses only .410 short shells not he longer ones. Can one still get the shorts? It is all a bit shaky however. I* only took it so my Uncle could get rid of it. Also acquired a couple of other firearms with it, the Mauser .22 RF and a 12-bore SbyS Stevens shotgun with one hammer missing.

A bit waffly comment.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (10/06/20 06:35 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39983
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Re: "Would you shoot it?" [Re: NitroX]
      #342083 - 10/06/20 06:54 PM

Actually another of my firearms, my 1870 or thereabouts, Rosier Martini-Henry .577/450.

Is it safe?

No idea. I believe so.

Would you shoot it?

I would. But I haven't so far.

Is it shootable or a wall hanger?

Could be either.

If people want definites, buy brand new firearms or very good condition used. Forget about anything old. Get it checked by someone competent.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4213
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: "Would you shoot it?" [Re: NitroX]
      #342084 - 10/06/20 10:22 PM

John
I believe we can still possibly get 2" 410's here which would equate to the 'shorts' for this shell - might have to wait, but seems getting them is possible.
https://www.horsleyparkgunshop.com.au/category/379-410-gauge

My old H&R Model 1915 has "410-12mm choke" marked on barrel, so it was made approx 1922-36 so its getting up towards a century now; & it has the 2 1/2" chambers.
I'm not 100% certain here but I believe the 2" shell differed only due to a smaller payload.
The 3" shell came out around 1927, so it is possible it could even be a 3" chambering - if so then it will be of stronger steel & hence a lot strong than my ol' snake charmer!
Is it tight on the face, yes it is; but is not shot a great deal & loads are kept exactly within know parameters to avoid overloading.
A bit more reading on the humble 410 if you are interested
https://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=collecting-410-shotshells

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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: "Would you shoot it?" [Re: NitroX]
      #342088 - 10/06/20 10:40 PM

I very much do "get" the fear of a law suit being a reason not to answer, but at the same time a seller who raves about the condition sorta "steps on his junk". You cant say this GUN is in great shape, then go on to describe how great it is and not answer because you dont want to be sued. In my case Im pretty sure a court would say failing to answer the would you shoot it question, wouldnt release you from liability after describing the great condition.

That being said, yes I do understand fears of being sued. Being sued is something we face everyday, all the more so in the firearms world and especially so in the used/antique realm. An answer that would have completely satisfied me and had me writing a cheque, would have been, "It looks good to me. Yeah Id shoot it with light loads AFTER a qualified gunsmith (one who understands damascus guns) pronounced it safe."

IF it was at a local shop, where I could make a personal assessment, I still might have asked the question; but THAT would be so I could SEE and HEAR his response. I cant do that on an online auction or through emails; so I have to ask pointed questions. Conversely if I had failed to ask the question, and there was a problem; the seller could have said "you didnt ask about that"

I guess I really knew the answer before I asked but wanted to hear something to change my mind. Admittedly I was drawn to his glowing description. I wanted the gun and told him so. I just wanted some positive assessment of shootability, beyond his description. I still would have bought it IF he would have allowed a return after a safety inspection; but he advised me in the emails that a gunsmith's assessment wasnt an acceptable reason to return it.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27091
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: "Would you shoot it?" [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342099 - 11/06/20 02:11 AM

The guy did not want to sell it, it seems.
I recently bought a Field, London gun, SxS hammers and damascus bls, from a dealer in Ontario. Advertised as bores bright, good overall condition. I tested it with normal loads, 2 1/2", roll crimp, 2 3/4 drams 1F and 1 1/8ox. shot.
Missed 2 birds out of 20 shots on the quail-walk at Hefley and got second place. Nice gun and damn glad I bought it, just for the quail walk at rendezvous. It was under $350.00. Most of the colour case is still there. A plain gun, some engraving.
Sometimes you just have to take a chance with the old stuff.
Oh yes - VERY bright bores, well maintained and not used much.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39983
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: "Would you shoot it?" [Re: DarylS]
      #342105 - 11/06/20 05:55 AM

Interesting related sort of, one London auction house purposefully cuts holes into the barrels of shotguns before selling them. Because of legal liability. The shotguns do not meet modern standards so when selling them, reportedly for GBP10 a piece, some really lovely side by sides, sideplates, sidelocks etc, there is a great big rectangular hole in each barrel.

For whatever reason these guns do nt meet proof standards or chamber dimensions etc, so the gun is sold as is, with a hole in the barrel.

That way they can not be shot, and zero liability for the sale.

The guy who showed me a collection he had bought for ten pounds apiece had plans to re-chamber, rebarrel, sleeve etc them. Some of them were very nice, except now airy.

The fact, the comment was made, about liability still adhering, in the posts above, is one reason, to just state the facts, as known in writing and largely stick to that. If there is any question.

I can understand buying a gun at auction, sight unseen is risky. A reason I never do it, and otherwise would try to have someone trustworthy inspect the items personally. Otherwise one can only go by the catalogue description. .

Personally I would never sell a dangerous gun as a shooting firearm without a qualification. And I would also expect any firearm described as being able to be fired and especially if it has been fired by the seller, to be safe. To the extent they claim it can be fired (ie loads etc)

It is a bit funny, but many a time, someone has mentioned on the internet shooting a gun with a piece of string on the trigger the first time.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39983
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: "Would you shoot it?" [Re: 93x64mm]
      #342106 - 11/06/20 06:00 AM

Quote:

John
I believe we can still possibly get 2" 410's here which would equate to the 'shorts' for this shell - might have to wait, but seems getting them is possible.
https://www.horsleyparkgunshop.com.au/category/379-410-gauge

My old H&R Model 1915 has "410-12mm choke" marked on barrel, so it was made approx 1922-36 so its getting up towards a century now; & it has the 2 1/2" chambers.
I'm not 100% certain here but I believe the 2" shell differed only due to a smaller payload.
The 3" shell came out around 1927, so it is possible it could even be a 3" chambering - if so then it will be of stronger steel & hence a lot strong than my ol' snake charmer!
Is it tight on the face, yes it is; but is not shot a great deal & loads are kept exactly within know parameters to avoid overloading.
A bit more reading on the humble 410 if you are interested
https://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=collecting-410-shotshells



My uncle used to use it. So presumably the 2" or 2 1/2" shells fit. It is rusted a bit. And may have been badly stored since he sold his farm. The shells might not be the only thing not proper on the gun.

I will have to take some photos and start a thread on it. If the gun has any value, I would not want it junked ...

I have a hammer side by side .410 from my other grandfather as well. Spent some money getting it repaired. And luckily I must have oiled it really well before giving it back to my father who kept the guns in a damp shed. The .410 came back to me in reasonably unrusty condition. Not like the single shot Lithgow covered in rust, and the Mossberg pump, almost rusted tight .... real ffffing shames ...

I will see what the chamber is, on the single shot, and if I can get some suitable .410s.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (11/06/20 06:03 AM)

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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: "Would you shoot it?" [Re: DarylS]
      #342110 - 11/06/20 09:15 AM

Quote:

The guy did not want to sell it, it seems.



Thats sorta what I thought but hes been relisting for a month, every time it fails to get bids, he posts it again. I suppose its an automatic repost but even so, hes not trying very hard. Hes way over priced for a wall hanger and obviously not willing to commit to the condition he claims.

Anyway, I still think its a fair question

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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