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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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mckinney
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.22 Vierling
#334769 - 24/11/19 02:10 AM

I recently picked up a neat little single shot bolt rifle by BSW. The caliber marking is "5.6 x 35 RWS". I'm thinking this is probably the .22 Vierling cartridge, but that cartridge is usually denoted 5.6 x 35R. I'm not sure what the metric designation for the .22 Hornet is. The rifle has BUG proofs and is marked "Fluss-Stahl Krup-Essen" on the top of the barrel. The top of the receiver is marked "HD Carabiner BSW Suhl" and the buttplate is also marked BSW.

I'm just starting to clean up and go through the gun, would love to hear from anyone with knowledge about these rifles. Thanks

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tinker
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: mckinney]
#334771 - 24/11/19 03:14 AM

Have you confirmed the barrel is for a .22 caliber cartridge?
Can you measure the bolt face?
Do you have any 23 Hornet brass?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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mckinney
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: tinker]
#334772 - 24/11/19 03:37 AM

Tinker thanks for the quick response. No to both your questions. I haven’t slugged the barrel but it sure looks .22 caliber and the rifle looks original and unaltered. After I posted this I read that the euro designation for the .22 hornet is 5.6 x 36R while the 5.6 x 35R is the Vierling. Very confusing topic, almost as bad as the various 8 x 57
cartridges!

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tinker
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: mckinney]
#334776 - 24/11/19 05:51 AM

Check the bolt face and chech the chamber opening

That chamber should be pretty shallow, and you should be able to slug it with roundball and a wood dowel as a punch.

I'd be crossing my fingers for the Hornet.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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lancaster
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: tinker]
#334778 - 24/11/19 06:16 AM

if you can read there 5,6x35R its the vierling
if a hornet you will find exaxt this ".22 hornet"

BSW is pre war when the .22 Hornet was not in use

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (24/11/19 06:16 AM)

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tinker
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: lancaster]
#334784 - 24/11/19 09:29 AM

Lancaster - can you post it link to a chamber and/or cartridge drawing for this cartridge?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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85lc
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: tinker]
#334785 - 24/11/19 11:23 AM

Isn't the 22 vierling the same as the 22WCF?

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RB

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crshelton
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: 85lc]
#334786 - 24/11/19 11:54 AM

I just found the answer to this with one (1) Google search!

That was even faster than checking on the Germanguns.com site.

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CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
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mckinney
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: crshelton]
#334787 - 24/11/19 12:06 PM

What answer did you find?

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lancaster
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: mckinney]
#334796 - 24/11/19 05:19 PM

in short the 5,6 Vierling is a 22 Winchester but with a jacketed bullet and a nitro load when the old Win was a blackpowder/lead bullet cartridge only. When the hornet was created it got a thicker rim and the shoulder comes forward to prevent it be fired in an old rifle.
so far you have to reduce the rim thickness from 1,6mm to 1,4 mm on hornet brass.

http://www.municion.org/22hornet/Vierling.htm
http://www.municion.org/22hornet/22hornet.htm

in theorie bullet diameter is smaller for the Vierling - only .221 / 6,63 mm but slug the barrel

have never done it but its maybe possible to short the 22. Hornet sizing die 3-4 mm by trial and error until the shoulder is where the vierling should have to be. could be cheaper than bying a vierling die set.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: lancaster]
#334809 - 25/11/19 05:24 AM

The original .22WCF also used a .228" bullet.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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85lc
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: DarylS]
#334843 - 26/11/19 03:31 AM

Daryl. That is interesting. I always assumed that the 22 WCF & 22 Hornet used the same size bullets. I guess the early 22s were 0.227" / 0,228" - as is the 22 HiPower.

I have some 22 WCF somewhere in my shop.

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RB

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lancaster
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: 85lc]
#334844 - 26/11/19 04:02 AM

the 5,7 mm Velodog have also .228, iirc

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Hoot
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: lancaster]
#335050 - 01/12/19 09:52 AM

I "might" have a 5.6x35R Vierling. Some time back, I bought a Husqvarna single shot, bolt action advertised as a ".22 Hornet". I'm a bit nutty about the cartridge and maybe more than a little nutty about Huskys so I slapped a bid in and eventually won the auction. Of course, then was the perfect time to do my research. Husqvarna never built a bolt action, single shot chambered for the Hornet.

Further research leads me to believe that some unknown 'smith converted what turned out to be a Model 365 into a central fire ignition, added a second recoil lug and an appropriate extractor and chambered it in what appears to be 5.6x35R Vierling.

I had a machinist friend shorten the rims (from the front) to the Vierling and proceeded to load up some 40gr. lead slugs over modest amounts of Unique. Results were dismal with bullets keyholeing in very short yardages. At least the cases were fireformed.

I shelved the endeavor for a bit but want to get back to it "toot suite". I'll load up some more a little faster and a little slower to see if I can get some round holes.

Not much help to the original poster but, hey, you're not alone!

Cheers!

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mckinney
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: Hoot]
#335053 - 01/12/19 02:29 PM

While I continue to investigate, I see that Wikipedia states the European designation for the .22 Hornet as 5.6 x 35R (not 36R) and credits Barnes' Cartridges of the World (which I don't have). Probably a mistake and just an example of how these things seem to always drift further off course.

I also found a 1938 DMW ammo catalogue online: http://gigconceptsinc.com/files/DWM-1938-Export-Catalog-tan-brown-cvr.pdf

On page 14 of 44 the Vierling is pictured just above the Hornet.

Would love to run across a case of the Vierling ammo! I'd also like to know the last year the cartridge was loaded by any of the major companies.

I think it might be worthwhile to look at some of the writing on the Hornet around the time of its introduction (1930 according to what I've read). Surely they must have compared/contrasted it with the Vierling.

Edited by mckinney (01/12/19 02:31 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: mckinney]
#335055 - 01/12/19 07:59 PM

the 5,6x35R Vieling was beside of the 22 Hornet in the first post war RWS and DWM katalogs from 1956. maybe in production into the 1960s.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Hoot
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: mckinney]
#335057 - 02/12/19 02:47 AM

Quote:

I also found a 1938 DMW ammo catalogue online: http://gigconceptsinc.com/files/DWM-1938-Export-Catalog-tan-brown-cvr.pdf

Thank you! It looks like I have been trying to push my rifle too fast. I was trying for 2000fps/~610m/s.

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xausa
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: mckinney]
#335065 - 02/12/19 11:54 AM

Quote:

I think it might be worthwhile to look at some of the writing on the Hornet around the time of its introduction (1930 according to what I've read). Surely they must have compared/contrasted it with the Vierling.

The Hornet was originated in Springfield Armory, using the M1922 Springfield as a vehicle. Consequently the first barrels had .22lr dimensions, i.e. .221" groove diameter. The cartridge cases used would have been .22 WCF cases. The bullets used were those intended for the French VeloDog revolver. I think any comparison would have been with the .22 WCF.

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DarylS
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Re: .22 Vierling [Re: Hoot]
#335066 - 02/12/19 01:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I also found a 1938 DMW ammo catalogue online: http://gigconceptsinc.com/files/DWM-1938-Export-Catalog-tan-brown-cvr.pdf

Thank you! It looks like I have been trying to push my rifle too fast. I was trying for 2000fps/~610m/s.

The picture of the Vierling appears to be of the original WCF case, not the later Hornet, judging by the shoulder location.
On top of that, even the Euro .22 Hornet round (ie: RWS) was loaded to about 2,350fps MV, today, even.
Seems to me, the WCF had a 45gr. cast bullet at about 1,450fps - if memory serves.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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