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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39990
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #296001 - 28/02/17 12:01 PM

Quote:

As you can see below, Prince Esterhazy was aware of Captain James Forsyth since he wrote "Captain James Forsyth Highlands of Central India" inside of a book or travel map that he used for planning his trip to India in 1886/87. I'll bet that he had a copy of "the Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles". I always thought that 1888 was a bit late for a rifle built to use explosive shells but who knows, anything is possible. Something else that I find interesting are the travel times are written on the opposite page:

This is from a book written in German that I found. There is a whole chapter with a lot of great photographs in it but I have been hesitant to upload the photos because of potential copyright issues. I suppose that if they don't like this being online, they can tell me to take it down.

Regards,

Jim




Jim,

I am not a lawyer so this is not legal advice! But generally a book's copyright ceases 50 years after the death of the author. However there is other legal bits and pieces I have never understood, which can extend it.

So if the book is old, the writer is long dead, there SHOULD be no issue with copyright. Our legal members can chime in if they wish.

To date, we have never had anyone take issue with the hundreds and hundreds of books and magazines published online in the ezine / Nickudud files. Lots of b@$#@*%$ pinching them though.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Watson577
.300 member


Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 132
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia USA
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #296006 - 28/02/17 12:45 PM

John,

The book in question was published in 2010 and it's about hunting and the Esterhazy Princes. There are a lot of photos and personal belongings of Prince Louis Esterhazy that are shown in the book and from what I have found, they must be stored at Forchtenstein Castle or in the archives of the Esterhazy palace in Eisenstadt. One of our fellow members tried contacting the castle about their holdings by phone, but they weren't interested in helping at all and basically told him that they didn't have anything. This is obviously not the case. They didn't respond to two messages that I sent either. My guess is that they really don't care.

Regards,

Jim

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #296007 - 28/02/17 12:48 PM

4,300fpe with a black powder rifle - well done! Bet Forsyth's 'shell's would be kinda special!

8 bore, I think.

"No.1 was charging: shell hit him in the mouth, exploded in this throat, and blew his head into pieces."

"Nos.2 and 3 were both hit far back in the body, and low down: in neither instance would a common ball have had the least effect. No. 2 ran150yards and fell, and No. 3 stayed where he was. On opening, the whole cavity of the body was full of extravasated (sic) blood."

"No. 4 I must day would have had little chance of doing mischief, whatever sort of projectile he had met with, for the shell struck ihim full in the forehead, making a clean round hole on entering, but blowing the back of the head and bones of the neck into little bits.
In addition to these four, I finished with a shell another tiger which had previously received three common balls, and had still some life left. The effect was equally instantaneous."

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CarlsenHighway
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Reged: 19/03/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Port Chalmers, New Zealand
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #296720 - 10/03/17 06:24 PM

American Theodore Van Dyke writes of making and the effect of exploding projectiles in his book "The Still Hunter" which was published in 1882.

I also have recently bought a mold from Accurate Molds, it is excellent in every way, and has made prefect bullets from the start. They only took just over a week to send it out to NZ from Utah as well.

--------------------
If you carry a cat home by the tail you will receive information valuable to you for the rest of your life.
Mark Twain

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Watson577
.300 member


Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 132
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia USA
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #296772 - 11/03/17 07:54 AM

CarlsenHighway,

Thank you mentioning that book! I had never heard of it and I just downloaded a PDF from Google.

Cheers,

Jim

PS: I'm glad that you liked that mould.

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Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #296876 - 12/03/17 01:22 PM

Theres a book i read - "Trapping wild animals in Malay jungles" by Charles Mayer and he has a .50-110 Winchester, talks about "exploding bullets" and using them to impress the locals by their affects on trees.

Did they ever actually make these or was he simply referring to the Express bullets??

--------------------
.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27093
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Ash]
      #296878 - 12/03/17 01:48 PM

There was a bullet made, some time ago, but British, I think, using copper tubes, closed on the top-end, and shoved down into hollow pointed bullets, expressly cast for these tubes. Some tubes were empty, open end up to promote rapid expansion, while others were closed end up to delay expansion, while others yet had detonating compound, usually chlorate of mercury (seems to me)- however might have been the old standby used for pill locks and tube locks. This formula I have read, was outlawed in 1898 as it was somewhat unstable if mixed in a slurry and dried, rather than in powder form.

5 parts Potassium Chlorate
1 part Sulphur
1 part Charcoal (soft or hardwood, not known)

When I tested this formula I did not know about the slurry/dried as being unstable.
I bored a 3/8" hole in .58 calibre solid base bullets for my Hawken. 3 shots would cut off a 12" Aspen tree. They were fun to shoot, but somewhat of a concern when loading.
After finding out the slurry mix I was using was unstable, I ceased in this venture. Initially I was using the compound for my home made percussion caps.
Due to the Chlorates these percussion caps produced fouling that was VERY corrosive.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Watson577
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Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 132
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia USA
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #296947 - 13/03/17 08:31 AM

I never fooled around with anything except the original Forsyth compound. I tried 8-bore and 12-bore Forsyth shells and I don't think that they would be as powerful as what Daryl describes. The Forsyth shells are pretty hard to set off and I don't think that one would ever go off inside the barrel. For an example, I fired an 8-bore shell into a soft, wet bank once and it didn't go off. The shell was fairly crushed up but I guess that shock wasn't enough to set it off. That shell does have a rather thick nose though.

A failure that really surprised me was when I shot a 12-bore shell into a Paw Paw tree (about like balsa wood) at a downward angle. The shell went through about 7" of wood and then embedded in the ground, unexploded. Again, the shell was fairly crushed up. If you make the nose thin enough or hollow with wax plugging the hole, they will go off reliably in a ¾” thick stack of hanging wet newspaper. I haven’t seen the effect on game but I have a friend that has shot large game with them and he said that they are very effective if you choose the right alloy to match the application.

I may just have to work up a shell design for the 16-bore…

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