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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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DarylS
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: Sarg]
      #259498 - 27/01/15 04:48 AM

Yes - of course, - the straight cases ie: .458WM, Lott, Marlin - but any with shoulders that need belts?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Norman4
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Reged: 16/01/15
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: DarylS]
      #259501 - 27/01/15 05:19 AM

Quote:

Yes - of course, - the straight cases ie: .458WM, Lott, Marlin - but any with shoulders that need belts?



I would have to concur with you. The existence of all the unbelted cartridges before the belted cartridge was introduced would be enough evidence to negate the "need" for a belt. I suspect it wasn't all about cheating on workmanship, even though the belt does "ease" some of the effort of manufacturing. I do believe there was a considerable attempt at marketing here. New and improved! "My God, it's so powerful they had to belt the case!" Their advertising of the day seems to indicate this. I suppose in some cases the argument could be made that a belted case offered some versatility to the action manufacturer. The belted case theoretically allowed the advantages of both a rimmed cartridge for singles/doubles and a rimless case for mauser/bolt rifles. Negating the necessity of two versions of the same cartridge. Here we are now, and of course, modern single/double rifles handle rimless cartridges reliably. I can remember the belt issue being hotly debated even in the later part of the last century when such firms as Weatherby (belted) and Dakota (non belted) made their cases (no pun intended) for power and performance. Is there a "need" for a belt? I would have to say no. Have I used belted cartridges satisfactorily? Absolutely. Norman4

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paradox_
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: Sarg]
      #259514 - 27/01/15 11:16 AM

Daryl

I personaly think the 458WM does get some advantage from having a belt, but thats only me.

As stated earlier, I don't agree with the modern rush of belted magnums, neither do I think they do anyone any harm. Neither do I think they are any more or less silly because of it.

I note your justification for non support of belted cases has turned from the "Hollands worn out reamer" theory to the old and well discussed issue of where to headspace a cartridge.

Challange you...again to explain that statement.

Its worth remembering that not everyone is an expert on hand loading, in fact many average " Joe Blows" who like to hand load dont even understand the headspace concept.

On SOME cartridges these guys can safley reload a belted cartridge and not be concerned setting the die up correctly, etc etc

Sounds to me like the worlds next most successful cartridge will be a rimless 375 H&H, accompanied by its sister the 300....wonder why that concept hasnt pushed those two wonderful cartridges into obscurity ??

Opps almost forgot the 375 Hornady....or what ever it is is going to take over from the BELTLED 375 H&H

Millions of rounds fired, thousands upon thousands of game killed, 100 years plus of history...means one of us is on the wrong page!!!!

Best
Eric

--------------------
Walk softly and carry a big stick

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: paradox_]
      #259522 - 27/01/15 04:13 PM

Eric -

Just because a ctg. has been around for a 103 years, does not mean it's case design is the best. It only means it's case design is over 100years old & is still being used by a lot of shooters.

If as you say, "Millions of rounds fired, thousands upon thousands of game killed, 100 years plus of history...means one of us is on the wrong page!!!!" actually means the cartridge design is the best - you need to re-calibrate your ruler. It is OUTDATED and is a design that is not needed - if it was needed, there would be no rimless ctgs. of greater power.

Is there something wrong with a belt - no - not if it's needed. I don't believe I ever said there was anything wrong with the belt. I said it is not needed on any shouldered round we use today that I know of. Name one if I am wrong. However, what the belt does for sure, is promote or allow overlength machining of chambers that cannot occur, is not allowed to occur with rimless rounds - I believe I did say that.

Did I say that H&H specifically designed the rounds with belts so they could do sloppy chambers - I don't think so. Show me where & I will apologize and retract that erroneous statement? That is not a true statement as far as I know, if indeed I said it, I must have been drunk.

I do believe that more modern rounds, rimless rounds, of the same or more power, will eventually replace the belted rounds, such as the .375, .300's, 7mm's, etc amongst the majority of hunters.

Will there still be rifles around that shoot .375H&H cartridges in another 100years? - yes, of course, just as there are rifles around today, chambered for old, obsolete ctgs. There will be holdouts for the H&H - just as there are holdouts today for many obsolete rounds of 100 or more years ago.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: Sarg]
      #259524 - 27/01/15 06:48 PM

Couple of things; don't overlook that the 9,3x62 is a standard-length cartridge, meaning a lighter carry rifle compared to .338 Winchester and .375H&H. It's considered a relatively mild cartridge to shoot which also helps put meat on the table. Not having to use an exclusive magnum-length Mauser action would have saved quite a bit of money in the 1930's and allowed more selection of makes. This alone could account for its' popularity.

Also I'm not sure I agree that rimmed cartridges have lost their need in the 21st century. When they're used in a break-open gun such as a Drilling, the extraction is more or less assured. However rimless cartridges require various contrivances like a small spring-loaded pin to engage in the extractor slot. I'm sure these work well enough most of the time, but for peace of mind, a simple rim has got to be the better option. In some cases, rifles will come set up for both options, especially if there might be issues with getting ammo. So for instance, I was offered a 5,6x57 rifle/shotgun (a BBF), that would accept rimmed or rimless ammo without needing a change of extractor.

I think a Drilling in 7x65R would have a ready market, but one in 7x64 rimless might meet some resistance.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #259527 - 27/01/15 07:56 PM

Kiwi Bloke, the discussion is about whether a belt is needed or not. Rimmed cartridges are not part of this discussion.

As for the 338 Win. Mag., I have used on for over twenty years and love it. It is accurate, easy to load and hits hard. A lot of people talk about heavy recoil but I would suggest that they have either never fired one, have a poorly fitted stock or don't know how to shoot. I have a 1965 Winchester Model 70, the on that all the critics hate, however the stock is much slimmer than many of the latter models and it fits me perfectly. The stock is more like a Mannlicher Schoenauer stock, quite slim through the grip and forend and you can belt out one round after another without any discomfort, and I am neither tall nor heavy. It has a 21 inch barrel and wears a H30L Aimpoint. It is fast to point, stable to shoot, feeds perfectly and is very fast to repeat. As far as recoil is concerned, it is neither harsh or uncomfortable and is certainly less noticeable than my mates Tikka T3 in 9.3x62 even though both guns weigh almost the same. Don't get me wrong, I love the 9.3x62 round as well, however the 338 is still a superb cartridge for most larger game species. Unfortunately it seems to be getting a bit of bad flack lately for some reason.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #259542 - 28/01/15 03:22 AM

Spot-on - I agree, the .338's performance is terrific. It's just that the belt does nothing to assist in that round's performance. It is not needed.

The 9.3x62 will do pretty much does everything the .338 can do and perhaps that is what you are referring to, Waidmannsheil, when you say it's receiving flack.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wanabebwana
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: DarylS]
      #260668 - 18/02/15 03:15 PM

Apologies to Daryl
Had not read all threads and tried to be a smart donkey.
Of course straight walled, rimless, high pressure rifle cases need a belt.
I have never owned a 10.75X57 but I cannot think of a bottleneck case that needs a belt.
I do not like belts. They take up room and are not as smooth to feed. The new .400H&H and especially the .465 H&H have pretty sloped shoulders maybe that's why a belt was used?



Edited by Wanabebwana (19/02/15 03:16 AM)

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Sarg
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #260673 - 18/02/15 05:21 PM

I don't know if you read this tread completely, but Daryl has you covered already !!

Quote:

Yes - of course, - the straight cases ie: .458WM, Lott, Marlin - but any with shoulders that need belts?



No fishing allowed here !

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