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Ripp
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Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber???
      #248032 - 28/05/14 03:51 PM


Everyone seems to be talking (and writing) about “long range” hunting these days, so I guess I’ll join the fray.

Most of the purpose-built rifles for hunting at extended ranges resemble military sniper rifles in size, weight and configuration: heavy-taper barrels, McMillan tactical stocks, bipods, oversized scopes with lots of magnification and target knobs—the works.


Long range shooting is the latest craze to sweep the hunting and shooting industry. Why not? Thumping steel consistently...
Most rifles that come in such a configuration from the factory seem to be chambered in .308 Winchester, which begs the question of whether this cartridge is up to the task of taking game at long range.

If we’re going to answer this question, we must begin by clarifying our definitions. “Long range” means different things to different people, in different parts of the country. For the sake of this discussion, let’s assume that long range hunting begins at 300 yards and goes out from there.

I’m not saying I agree with the ethics of taking long shots at unwounded game for the sake of it, I don’t—I’m just going to tell you whether the equipment will get it done if you can. I think this is valuable information for a variety of reasons, the foremost of which is that if I wound an animal and my only opportunity for a follow-up shot is at long range, I want to be able to put the animal down for good.

There are four relevant factors in determining whether a cartridge is viable for long-range hunting: trajectory, wind drift, impact velocity, and accuracy.

Bullet Flight
Trajectory is less important than it once was thanks to the widespread availability of laser rangefinders and scopes with bullet drop reticles and external adjustment knobs, but we still want the flattest bullet flight that we can get.

Nosler’s loading data for the .308 shows that a 165-grain Accubond bullet can reach a muzzle velocity of 2,820 feet per second (fps) with a max load of RL 15. At sea level, using a 200 yard zero, that projectile will drop 76 inches at 600 yards, which means 12 MOA of “come up.” While dialing for 76 inches of drop is not a big chore using target knobs, it would be pretty well impossible to do with any precision using a standard reticle and no means of making field adjustments.


Long range hunting is as much of an art form as it is a science. On one hand it requires diligent practice and a lengthy...
For comparison’s sake, if we use an Accubond of similar sectional density, the 6.5-284 Norma’s 130-grain Nosler drops about a foot less at the same distance. That’s not a huge difference, but as the range increases, so does the disparity in bullet drop. Out at 900 yards, the .308 drops 30 inches more than the 6.5-284.

The Norma cartridge will fit on the same action length as the .308 so we are really comparing apples to apples here.

Wind Drift
With wind speed and direction being equal, how much a bullet is affected by wind is a function of bullet construction (BC, weight, etc.) and flight time—the longer a bullet is in the air, the more time wind has a chance to have its way with it.

This time lets compare the .308 to a cartridge that uses the same parent case—the .260 Remington. With a 140-grain Accubond at 2,820 fps in a 10 mph full-value wind, the .260’s shot will drift 86.5 inches at 1,000 yards.

Bullet velocity being equal, the .308 drifts only about 9 inches further in the same wind. Not bad.

Impact Velocity
When we’re talking about hunting, the bullet can’t just hit the animal—it must hit the animal with sufficient speed to expand the bullet and do the tissue damage necessary to put the animal down.

Nosler Partition and Accubond bullets are designed to expand at 1,900 fps or greater (most other bullet designs expand at similar velocities, but let’s stick with our Accubond example for now). Our maximum effective range on game will be the distance at which the round crosses the 1,900 fps threshold.

Using Nosler data once again, we find that the 165-grain bullet falls below the velocity threshold at between 500 and 550 yards. The lighter 150-grain bullet is in the same ballpark at just over 500 yards, and the 180-grain falls below 1,900 fps at just over 400.

Here’s where the capability of the cartridge runs into a wall of facts—no ballistic computer or high-dollar optic is going to make that bullet expand. Are there bullets on the market that will perform at velocities under 1,900 fps? I’m sure there are, but none that I’m aware of advertise the fact.

Accuracy
If we’re talking about shooting game animals at long distances, we need a cartridge and rifle that are capable of consistently putting bullets into the vitals of our intended targets. Much has been written about the “inherent accuracy” of the .308 Winchester, and I actually buy into this.

That doesn’t mean that every .308 will shoot MOA or better, but most rifles so-chambered have behaved well on the range for me.

Even with a gun that shoots 1.5 MOA, we’re still talking 7.5 inches at the 500-yard mark where we cross below our velocity threshold—that’s plenty of accuracy to get the job done on most big game animals.

Verdict
The .308 Winchester is capable of the mechanical accuracy, trajectory, and wind resistance in order to make hits on big game animals at far beyond the ranges at which I intend on shooting them. Where we hit a non-negotiable barrier is the velocity threshold necessary for reliable bullet performance. In most bullet weights, that distance is around 500 yards at sea level.

From an ethical standpoint, I cannot recommend using a cartridge at distances where the bullet cannot be counted on to do its job. I’d call the .308 an adequate cartridge out to 500 yards, but beyond that you’ll need to show me a bullet that will perform well at that distance.

Before you say it, yes, I am aware that the .308 has done decades of duty as the go-to sniper rifle cartridge for our military. That doesn’t mean that it was the best tool for the job, and it doesn’t mean that it’s a great choice for shooting deer at 700 yards.



Read more: http://www.petersenshunting.com/2014/05/23/308-winchester-viable-long-range-cartridge/#ixzz32zEW98gQ

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Sville
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Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: Ripp]
      #248039 - 28/05/14 04:49 PM

I read an article in a Swedish rifle magazine some time ago. A very good Norwegian long range shooter tested different ammunitions like 6,5x55, .308, .338 and maybe some other. I think he hit targets of 1x1 m regularly with the 6,5x55 and .308 out to 500-700 m, but after that it was more difficult and I think he shot out to 1000-1200 m. And did hit targets of 1x1 m with the .338!

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Ripp
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Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: Sville]
      #248071 - 28/05/14 11:08 PM

Quote:

I read an article in a Swedish rifle magazine some time ago. A very good Norwegian long range shooter tested different ammunitions like 6,5x55, .308, .338 and maybe some other. I think he hit targets of 1x1 m regularly with the 6,5x55 and .308 out to 500-700 m, but after that it was more difficult and I think he shot out to 1000-1200 m. And did hit targets of 1x1 m with the .338!




I read with great interest in that article, knowing that the 6.5/284 is used a great deal for 1000yard competitions..also knowing and reading how US snipers in the mid-east have used 300W Mags along with .338 Lapua's using both well past 1200 yards..granted, those guys have very specific training and as such can shoot much better by a large margin than most..I realize shooting targets is much more different than shooting game or humans for that matter..BUT.???

I am attending a 2 day class in a few weeks..curious to see what they say about this article..


Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Dumprat
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Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: Ripp]
      #248112 - 29/05/14 12:49 PM

Ethically speaking how does one count deer antler points at beyond 300?

Not unlike so much of what you read and hear the long range hunting fad reeks of bravado and bullshit! 100 yards becomes 300. 250 yards become 800.

How many hunting stories have you heard where the teller will yap about their 400 yard shot on a deer sized animal and when asked about hold over or drop compensation their answer is merely a dumb look or something of the like?


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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: Dumprat]
      #248131 - 29/05/14 09:52 PM

Quote:

Ethically speaking how does one count deer antler points at beyond 300?

Not unlike so much of what you read and hear the long range hunting fad reeks of bravado and bullshit! 100 yards becomes 300. 250 yards become 800.

How many hunting stories have you heard where the teller will yap about their 400 yard shot on a deer sized animal and when asked about hold over or drop compensation their answer is merely a dumb look or something of the like?


I totally agree.If someone wants to hunt long range targets join the US Marines and hunt Taliban .When you wound one of these animals you are still saving a decent persons life by putting them out of action. These long range hunters are a disgrace ,most are unethical fools on some kind of ego trip . I have seen some of these "long range " hunters shoot and I actually believe people who think like this should never be allowed to hunt. In Switzerland you cannot hunt with a telescopic sight on your rifle until you are 50 for this very reason. While I do not agree with this law I can see what Switzerland is trying to prevent :The idiot with a magnum rifle that blazes away at animals at ranges much too far for the hunters skill and ethics of hunting ,missing ,or worse yet wounding and in many cases to far away to find out. This is not hunting.

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: Dumprat]
      #248132 - 29/05/14 11:26 PM

Quote:

Ethically speaking how does one count deer antler points at beyond 300?

Not unlike so much of what you read and hear the long range hunting fad reeks of bravado and bullshit! 100 yards becomes 300. 250 yards become 800.

How many hunting stories have you heard where the teller will yap about their 400 yard shot on a deer sized animal and when asked about hold over or drop compensation their answer is merely a dumb look or something of the like?




Partial copy of initial post:
Verdict
The .308 Winchester is capable of the mechanical accuracy, trajectory, and wind resistance in order to make hits on big game animals at far beyond the ranges at which I intend on shooting them. Where we hit a non-negotiable barrier is the velocity threshold necessary for reliable bullet performance. In most bullet weights, that distance is around 500 yards at sea level.

From an ethical standpoint, I cannot recommend using a cartridge at distances where the bullet cannot be counted on to do its job. I’d call the .308 an adequate cartridge out to 500 yards, but beyond that you’ll need to show me a bullet that will perform well at that distance.

Before you say it, yes, I am aware that the .308 has done decades of duty as the go-to sniper rifle cartridge for our military. That doesn’t mean that it was the best tool for the job, and it doesn’t mean that it’s a great choice for shooting deer at 700 yards.

--
agree with you dumprat..think the long range craze for shooting animals is the latest fade to make up for poor hunting skills, etc. Having said that I feel this article is NOT promoting long range hunting, actually opposite of that..and at numerous times states that...however have NO issue for someone shooting targets at 800,1000 or 2000 yards for that matter which is a range supposedly opening up out here sometime this summer..can't imagine too many holes in that target, but it will be there just the same..

As to marines being the specialists in shooting, while I believe some may be able to shoot just like some general population folks can, the 2 I have hunted with couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a scoop shovel..in fact there is one that is in our elk camp for the past 4 years..typical "legend in his own mind" kinda guy..they were BOTH very good at wounding animals, but a clean kill, never saw it happen...but then again, they may have also had sore shoulders from the continuous motion of padding themselves on the back. Just say'n..

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Sville
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Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: Ripp]
      #248138 - 30/05/14 02:53 AM

Long distance shooting that we now talks about is training and proberly very good training, it isn´t supposed to be used on hunting. But all training is good so why not also practise long distance shooting?

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: Sville]
      #248142 - 30/05/14 03:45 AM

Quote:

Long distance shooting that we now talks about is training and proberly very good training, it isn´t supposed to be used on hunting. But all training is good so why not also practise long distance shooting?




Agree totally...if you are not into it..that is fine..but don't criticize those who do because you either can't, don't want to or whatever the reason may be..IMHO, if you are practicing at 600,800 or 1000..the close shots get much easier..similar to shooting in archery..if you never practice at 40,60, or 80 yards..those distances seem unattainable...but once you try for a while you can see it actually is doable as well as those longer distances make the flaws in your technigue show up that closer distance will not as readily..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: Ripp]
      #248144 - 30/05/14 04:08 AM

As to marines being the specialists in shooting, while I believe some may be able to shoot just like some general population folks can, the 2 I have hunted with couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a scoop shovel..in fact there is one that is in our elk camp for the past 4 years..typical "legend in his own mind" kinda guy..they were BOTH very good at wounding animals, but a clean kill, never saw it happen...but then again, they may have also had sore shoulders from the continuous motion of padding themselves on the back. Just say'n..

Ripp








Ripp....Do you really expect us to believe this bull$#it you are trying to feed us ? Give us a break. It seems because you didn't have the guts to serve in the military that you go out of your way to rip and denigrate those that have. Everyone with half a brain knows that US Marines have the finest most extensive rifle marksmanship training around.


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Ripp
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Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #248148 - 30/05/14 07:31 AM

Quote:

As to marines being the specialists in shooting, while I believe some may be able to shoot just like some general population folks can, the 2 I have hunted with couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a scoop shovel..in fact there is one that is in our elk camp for the past 4 years..typical "legend in his own mind" kinda guy..they were BOTH very good at wounding animals, but a clean kill, never saw it happen...but then again, they may have also had sore shoulders from the continuous motion of padding themselves on the back. Just say'n..

Ripp








Ripp....Do you really expect us to believe this bull$#it you are trying to feed us ? Give us a break. It seems because you didn't have the guts to serve in the military that you go out of your way to rip and denigrate those that have. Everyone with half a brain knows that US Marines have the finest most extensive rifle marksmanship training around.




Hey, facts are facts, sorry you feel the need to denigrate or chastise those who know otherwise.. ..I will say you do appear to be like the other two I have known as in "legends in their own minds".



Edited by Ripp (30/05/14 07:34 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: Dumprat]
      #248150 - 30/05/14 08:14 AM

Quote:

Ethically speaking how does one count deer antler points at beyond 300?

Not unlike so much of what you read and hear the long range hunting fad reeks of bravado and bullshit! 100 yards becomes 300. 250 yards become 800.

How many hunting stories have you heard where the teller will yap about their 400 yard shot on a deer sized animal and when asked about hold over or drop compensation their answer is merely a dumb look or something of the like?





total agreement.

I used to shoot gophers out to 450yards - bit smaller than a deer, bear or elk - and I know exactly my holdover - 4th mill dot - post for 510yds.- when set at 20X - 18X gives centre hits with luck) at 525yards on the last post. All of our long shots on the field rats are no longer there, so that system worked fairly well. I was hard on them in that corner of the field. Fun while it lasted, though. Using a laser rangefinder sure helps and actually gives you the range - no mis-guessing by 200 or 300 yards.

I had one fellow tell me about his"700yard moose with my tree oh tree. Aimed right at him - dropped him right there yes-sir-ee. I aimed right at him, you see, that big 215gr. bullet gets out about 200 or so, they picks up a few feet and hits right on at 700 YUP"! Tat was back in 1976 - I'll always remember THAT moose story. It was very similar to Less Hafield's 700 yard mulie with his Win. model 34 "turty turty. It had a LOOOOOOOOOOONG bar-l. "Aimed right at him yessir, did I tell ya IT had a LOOOOOOOOOONG bar-l."

THUS - if you want to shoot big game at long range, you need either a .303 or a .30/30 along with a vivid imagination.

I'm repeating myself, but 300yards would be long range for me on big game (purchased tags) and does not happen in he areas I hunt.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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headoftheholler
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Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: DarylS]
      #248153 - 30/05/14 08:41 AM

I read an article a few years back , guy and his wife as spotter using a .50 BMG to hunt elk out west somewhere at ranges nearing 1000 yards. I hunt nearly year round for all species I can and not only do I think hunting rifles with massive huge scopes looks horrible, the ethics are questionable as well as is hunting animals at that range really hunting, or shooting?
Most of my hunting rifles wear optics, all 4x fixed and one , a M88 sporter, that I use strictly irons with for whitetail hunting.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: headoftheholler]
      #248182 - 30/05/14 02:27 PM

When I used to buy rifles from newspaper adverts - the "old" huh - so many guys would say - "yes this .243/.308/etc is good to 800 yards .... " Yep.

My longest shots with my .30-06 was at aherd of feral goats at about 400 yards. Walking along a thin mountain path, I dropped each one off a cliff with a just over the shoulder hold. The rifle was sighted to about 300 yards PBR. Until I gut shot one and had to use a magazine load on him at the bottom of the cliff to finish him.

800 yards is a long long way away.

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John aka NitroX

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Ripp
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Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: NitroX]
      #248207 - 30/05/14 11:42 PM

Quote:

When I used to buy rifles from newspaper adverts - the "old" huh - so many guys would say - "yes this .243/.308/etc is good to 800 yards .... " Yep.

My longest shots with my .30-06 was at aherd of feral goats at about 400 yards. Walking along a thin mountain path, I dropped each one off a cliff with a just over the shoulder hold. The rifle was sighted to about 300 yards PBR. Until I gut shot one and had to use a magazine load on him at the bottom of the cliff to finish him.

800 yards is a long long way away.




800 yards is a long way --and much of what I have read and experienced is once past 600..many things change..especially at 800, 1000 and beyond..

Looking forward to the 2 day school I am attending shortly..also interesting in learning more or our sport...whether targets or otherwise..

Ripp

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DarylS
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Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: Ripp]
      #248228 - 31/05/14 03:38 AM

Good luck at school- that's the kind I'd like to attend.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #248248 - 31/05/14 11:51 PM

Quote:


Ripp....Do you really expect us to believe (blah blah) ...





Us?
Exactly who is 'Us'..?


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Huvius
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Re: Is the .308 Win a viable long range caliber??? [Re: tinker]
      #248249 - 01/06/14 01:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Ripp....Do you really expect us to believe (blah blah) ...





Us?
Exactly who is 'Us'..?




The Marine qualification with the M16 runs out to 500yds, but I think the course requires only five rounds at that range for the old qualification and if you have shot well at the shorter distances, the 500yd shots don't really matter and you are not expected to get many hits at that range. I am not totally sure, but I think a hit is about 3MOA at 500yds.
I don't expect ex military friends of mine (I never served) to always be exceptional marksmen, and they usually aren't. They tend to be better with a rifle than a pistol too but that is generally true for everybody I guess.

I think that stems from that in the battlefield, a hit is often better than an outright kill.
And that speaks to the question at hand regarding the 308.
The USMC website suggests that in the SASS, it can "deliver precision fire to enemy targets to 800yds". Not sure if the enemy target is a single man or vehicle, etc., but if it is a man, that is about 2MOA or a bit more at 800yds for a torso hit which is close in size to the vitals of an elk. Add to that, that the USMC is looking for hits and a hunter is looking for a clean kill (or should be).
As mentioned above, the question about retained energy and velocity to get adequate bullet performance becomes the most critical point in whether the 308 is a capable long range hunting proposition and IMO, it is not even at 500yds. Long range plinker, yes, long range hunter, nope.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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