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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 151
Loc: Finland
7x64 Brenneke vs. .30-06 recoil
      #186122 - 20/07/11 03:19 AM

I read somewhere - either on this or the Accuratereloading.com forum - that the felt recoil of the 7x64 Brenneke is less than that of the .30-06.
This post included a plausible-sounding technical explanation as to this. I think it had something to do with the bullet diameter and the acceleration of the bullet/powder burning rate. I cannot recollect what the explanation was but it seems illogical, indeed, when comparing the rounds only.
E.g. Norma lists the Oryx as follows:
7x64: 170grs (11,0g) - 840m/sec (2756 fps) for 3883 J (2868 ft-lb) of energy
.30-06: 180grs (11,7g) - 823m/sec (2700 fps) for 3964 J (2924 ft-lb) of energy

RWS
7x64: ID Klassik 11,5g - 840m/sec for 4128 J of energy (error: should be 4057 J)
.30-06: UNI Klassik 11,7g - 840m/sec for 4128 J of energy

With this similar figures, how big a difference can there be? Can anyone shed light on this?
Or can anyone present me with the theory as to why the recoil of the 7x64 would be noticeably less?

BTW - I have noticed a suprisingly big difference in recoil shooting the .308 v. the .30-06.
The figures of these are also a close match. Norma again:
.308: 180grs - 796m/sec (2612 fps) for 3708 J (2737 ft-lb) of energy
.30-06: 180grs - 823m/sec (2700 fps) for 3964 J (2924 ft-lb) of energy

The .30-06 has a more sharp and also a tad stronger recoil feeling than the .308.
I have never fired two identical rifles of only different caliber but I have shot plenty enough of both as they are the most common hunting calibers in Finland.
The only really similar feeling I've had is with Sako's Range ammo as they are both loaded 123grs @ 900m/sec (2953 fps).
I have one - note: but one! - friend who agrees with me on this.
The .308 while not perhaps outrigh comfortable is very manageable whereas the .30-06 is just nasty.

- Lars/Finland

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

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Con
.333 member


Reged: 24/05/04
Posts: 261
Loc: Victoria
Re: 7x64 Brenneke vs. .30-06 recoil [Re: Schauckis]
      #186123 - 20/07/11 03:26 AM

Recoil is relative and very subjective. I owned a 30-06 with hogsback stock that kicked into my face making it uncomfortable. In a classic straight stock it'd be a pussycat. Between the 7x64 and 30-06 I think any noticeable difference would come down to differences in weight of the rifle, stock and recoil pad design.

Shoot a 338WinMag, it will change your perseption of the 30-06s recoil.
Cheers...
Con

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27129
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 7x64 Brenneke vs. .30-06 recoil [Re: Schauckis]
      #186124 - 20/07/11 03:42 AM

Normally, the grain weight of powder and the grain weight of the bullet, along with the rifle's weight determines the exact recoil expressed in foot pounds force and recoil speed in feet per second.

For a human's interpretation of recoil, more comes to the table - one man might be kicked more by a certain ctg. and stock design, than another - and so it goes.

Some men are litterally knocked off they feet by very much less fpe of recoil, than another, both being equal weigth themselves. Recoil is so subjective, it's a very difficult subject.


All that said, I've shot Remington Model 700's in .280 and .30/06 (identical guns), both with 150gr. bullets and both loaded to the same 3,050fps velocity - seem to me, the .280 kicked less, but - perhaps not.

To compare 2 rounds for recoil, they'd have to be shooting the same weight bullet, or perhaps normal weight bullets for the calibre - in typical rifles for both - then, the small calibre with lighter ejecta produces less recoil - usually. Powder weight/bullet weight/rifle weight - those are the positives in recoil production. The person's weight, build, height - experience, all come into how he interprets the recoil actually produced mathematically.
I shot a friend's lightweight .30/06 Savage - about 30 years ago, that kicked like it thought it was a .338- and that was a factory RP 180gr. load. I've a friend who owns a custom .338 WM custom built on a P-17 Action with Bastonge stock,weighing 10 pounds with scope that kicks less than most all .30/06's I've shot, except for another Bastonge sustom .30/06 that felt like a .270 - go figure.

Since most 7's shoot 160gr. normally (or very slow (lightly loaded) 175gr.), and most guys (here) use 180gr. and 200gr. in their '06's with either hot handloads or factory, I'd say the .30 cal should kick more - just about every time.

The reason for using .280 is I've never shot a 7x64. They are VERY similar and I suspect most handloads are interchangable. I have shot an overunder 16 bore/7x65R, - which was quite heavy and felt like shooting a little 6mm Rem, even though it was using 56gr. of powder, the bullet weight was only 140gr. Very load 'felt' recoil.

I've never shot a .30/06 that kicked as little as that 7x65R.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Phillip
.300 member


Reged: 31/05/10
Posts: 174
Loc: North Carolina
Re: 7x64 Brenneke vs. .30-06 recoil [Re: DarylS]
      #186126 - 20/07/11 03:54 AM

I have both in a Brno ZG-47,both stocked the same...and to me,no difference.

--------------------
My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.
-Winston Churchill


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mauserand9mm
.400 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 1042
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: 7x64 Brenneke vs. .30-06 recoil [Re: Phillip]
      #186141 - 20/07/11 09:03 AM

And another factor for the recoil calculations (don't know if it makes any significant perceivable difference) is the "escape" velocity of the powder (gases) as it leaves the muzzle past the projectile. A portion of the gas exceeds the velocity of the projectile as soon as it leaves the muzzle (ie the gas is no longer contained or restrained and only has air resistance to battle) - this is a jet effect. Very hard to quantify but would add to the calculated recoil.

I've heard and read that in some of the larger capacity magnums, a faster powder will result in less perceived recoil than a slower one for the same projectile muzzle velocity but I guess the biggest component of this would be the fact there is usually less of the faster powder used.

I think I'm not all that recoil sensitive - I can't detect any difference between light or heavy projectiles in say 30/06 power range cartridges, or even in my 375H&H for that matter (220gn to 350gn). I do however notice the difference between a 400gn and 500gn in my 458WM.

But as it's been stated above, perceived recoil doesn't always line up with calculated recoil eg my friends Brno 602 in 300WM was more unpleasant to fire off a bench than my identical Brno 602 in 375HHMag, even though his rifle was very slightly heavier (they shared the same external barrel diameter) and produced less recoil on paper.

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40024
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 7x64 Brenneke vs. .30-06 recoil [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #186180 - 20/07/11 09:42 PM

The recoil of the 7mm would be marginally less, but not really noticeable.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: 7x64 Brenneke vs. .30-06 recoil [Re: Schauckis]
      #186183 - 20/07/11 10:20 PM

Bullet weight has the most influence on felt recoil. Two loads producing the same ME, but with light and heavy projectiles, will rock you way more with the heavy.

In the .458 WM for example. Both loads make 2700 ft/lb ME

1) 350 @ 1850 fps = 29 ft/lb recoil.
2) 550 @ 1500 fps = 40 ft/lb recoil.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27129
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 7x64 Brenneke vs. .30-06 recoil [Re: bonanza]
      #186203 - 21/07/11 01:44 AM

Mauser- I'd rather fire 50 rounds out my BRNO .375H&H dressed only in T-shirt, than shoot 5 shots out of any of the .300mags. We hates 'em.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mauserand9mm
.400 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 1042
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: 7x64 Brenneke vs. .30-06 recoil [Re: DarylS]
      #186234 - 21/07/11 09:16 AM

Good to know it isn't just me

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kamilaroi
.400 member


Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...
Re: 7x64 Brenneke vs. .30-06 recoil [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #186239 - 21/07/11 10:20 AM

Years ago there was some German time lapse photography on the subject. Recoil over time varies according to calibre, bullet weight and charge. From memory the 8mm magnums were about the worst.

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mauserand9mm
.400 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 1042
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: 7x64 Brenneke vs. .30-06 recoil [Re: kamilaroi]
      #186242 - 21/07/11 12:56 PM

Yes, I believe that this is because the higher velocity of the smaller bore magnums adds a "sharpness" factor to the recoil. Bigger push is more tolerable than a sharper slap.

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