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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Hydro hammer
      #176393 - 01/03/11 10:59 AM

Following pics are of a mature sambar stag`s ribcage showing in the 1st pic the entry of a.358 Norma Mag /225 Woodleigh Hydro 2nd pic the exit.It didnt touch bone on exit,dark patch is only dried blood/meat
The stag was dead on his feet and didn't go very far at all especially considering that the bullet hardly touched any bone at all,only the slightest 1/2 size 358 chip on the entry rib.That chip is tiny btw.I doubt whether other bullets would have done what this did in killing this stag so quickly.I have never seen blood in a body cavity in such a quantity prev.

Note the dry old rib cage is a week old tomorrow and has been hanging in the dog yard as a smorgasbord since it was boned out the next day.






Edited by CptCurl (04/07/11 08:57 PM)

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Hydro hammer [Re: gryphon]
      #176394 - 01/03/11 11:07 AM


Good stuff Gryph.


For a bulet that doesn't expand, I've noticed they certainly do create a wound channel.

.

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Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Hydro hammer [Re: 500Nitro]
      #176405 - 01/03/11 04:01 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Gryphon, good to see you having success!
Well done!!!

How do the Hydro's feed out of the magazine, of a Bolt Action?
I'm interested in running the 225gr in my 350 Rem Mag.
Is there anything you need to do to achieve smooth and reliable feeding?

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Hydro hammer [Re: Homer]
      #176406 - 01/03/11 04:44 PM

Homer my .358 NM is a `98 commercial and they feed sweet as,I can rattle them out one after the other with nary an issue mate.
Some people have had feed issues,I believe they may have too much pill out of the case,though I dont really know for sure.

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Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Hydro hammer [Re: gryphon]
      #176411 - 01/03/11 06:37 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Gryphon, looking at the Semi-Wad-cutter nose profile of the bullets, got me thinking.
They may not be the thing for my short action Remington Model 7 (673 actually)?
Though, I see a mob called Wyatt's make an extended magazine box for various bolt guns and this includes the M7, so maybe this will help a little?

Just had a thought, are the Hydro's, velocity dependent?
By this I mean, is there a cut off point (in velocity/FPS), where they no longer do there thing?
I should go and read the Woodleigh web site again.

Thanks again and good huntin!

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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FATBOY404
.400 member


Reged: 14/11/09
Posts: 1730
Loc: QLD
Re: Hydro hammer [Re: Homer]
      #176412 - 01/03/11 06:44 PM

Homer.
Geoff at Woodleigh says "the faster the better" and believes the 235 grain 375 Hydro may kill better than the 300 grain Hydro.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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Sville
.400 member


Reged: 23/03/10
Posts: 1189
Loc: Sweden
Re: Hydro hammer [Re: FATBOY404]
      #176420 - 01/03/11 08:28 PM

Some years ago I had a Husqvarna 1900 in calibre 358 NM. That was my best rifle ever, I regret that I sold it. It was very good att moose, fallow deer, red deer. I think that I shot with a Woodleigh 286 grain bullet that was loaded by Norma.

Regards Staffan

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27093
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Hydro hammer [Re: Sville]
      #176428 - 02/03/11 02:56 AM

The extra speed makes perfect sense with the shape of the bullet.

Too, the larger the diameter of the bullet, the slower they can be going to get a similar result. The .458's or .510's could be moving slower yet and still produce the cavitation necessary to get fluids in motion to create extensive damage beyond the bullet's diameter.

Remember the clean wound around the stopped .450/.400 bullet that went full length of the buff and was found in his neck?

Around the bullet where it was dug out there was literally no damage at all, it has slowed to a stop at that point. Obviously, back a ways in it's path, though, the bullet had done it's job and created all the damage reuqired. When they are moving slowly, solids create very neat wounds. When driven quickly, they can cause cavitation, the better shaped to accentuate this trait, the more cavitation they create.

Even flat nosed bullets create this cavitation, which is why flat nose bullets are preferred for hunting with the old standard handguns & BP or low rifle ctgs. The flat nose creates more damage than a round nose. A cup-nose, as in the Hydro, obviously creates more damage yet.

Due to the non-expansion trait of the bullets, they are relying upon the shape and speed of penetration to create the cavitation. A bullet that slows quickly, will reduce the total damage. Since speed during penetration is required, heavy game requiring deeper penetration actually requires a longer hydro. What I'm getting at, is that on deer, a 235gr. .375 Hydro might be best, kill the fastest,due to producing the greater cavitation in that animal however on a buffalo reuiring greater penetration, a 270gr. or 300 would be preferred due to the greater sectional density. It all comes to balance - use what's appropriate.

Obviously, the 225 gr. is a good .358" Sambar bullet. A 200gr. driven at 3,000fps initial velocity might be better yet, on those animals. It would certainly create a "cavity".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Hydro hammer [Re: DarylS]
      #176432 - 02/03/11 04:18 AM

Daryl I was going to ask Frank to run me a few @180 grains for the 358NM as a special order as I have an idea as you do that the lighter pills in this cal would be absolute knock outs and even with a middle of the road load would have some pace.
Hopefully I will get a few more " dead results" as the year unfolds using the 225`s.

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Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Hydro hammer [Re: gryphon]
      #176467 - 02/03/11 05:53 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Thank You Neale and Daryl S, this confirmed what I was thinking (or maybe it was something I had previously read, on NE of course)!!!

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27093
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Hydro hammer [Re: Homer]
      #176483 - 03/03/11 03:45 AM

Even a .35 Whelen should get 3,000fps from a 180gr.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Hydro hammer [Re: DarylS]
      #176540 - 03/03/11 05:41 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Just had a look at the print out from when I was running in the barrel on the 22" Ruger .350 RM.
The Mean/Average for 180 Speer Flat Nose, was 2835 fps but I assume this was a milder run-in load?

Hope this helps

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27093
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Hydro hammer [Re: Homer]
      #176559 - 04/03/11 03:05 AM

Rickard Lee's loading manual gives loads to 3,015fps with 180gr.jacketed in the .350 Rem Mag with H4895 at 52,600CUP, and 3,006 fps at 50,600CUP with H335. 2,992 is recored with BLC2 at 50,300 while H322 is listed at 2,894fps at identical pressure of 50,300cup.

Accurate 2520 is listed with 200gr.jacketed at 3,008fps producing 51,800CUP. All the rest are lower, in the 2,800's with the 200gr.

No barrel length is listed with Lee's data.

He also lists some 275gr. jacketed loads - H380 giving 2,350fps at only 48,200cup and BLC2 a favourite powder of mine for he 9.3's, running 2,311fps with the same 275gr. bullet at 49,600cup. H335 also broke 2,300fps at 48,200cup. All of the stick powders were mid to low 2,200's.

I was really hoping he'd have some .358 NM data, but none is listed.

BTW- I know I've mentioned this before- the .358 NM was a favourite of mine, back when I was a LOT younger. I shot a few coyotes with it, is all, 280gr. Hornady's or maybe Speers pluss 200gr. Reminton - what a mess - and 250Speers - what an amazingly accurate bullets.

It would be my favourite for long range deer hunting - able to run 2,800fps but the accuracy from my BRNO with Speer 250's - incredible.

That bullet would actually make oblong .358" holes, looking like 1/2 a keyhole, for 5 shots. Not kidding - under 2/10's inch on centres, ie: 5/8" to 1/2" X .358" hole for 5 shots. Although unable to make top speeds, the powder required did make factory speed of 2,700fps - IMR3031 and 62.0gr. CCI200 primer.

Other powders would shoot 1/2" to 3/4's, not bad for such a large case, but 3031 was IT for BR-type accuracy.

With the fantastic accuracy I've seen so far in a number of different guns using banded copper bullets, I don't see why the lighter ones would be any different. A friend's new '06 does 3/8" with factory Fed. 165 TSX's. I think those light Hydro's would be fun to test in any of the .35's.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Hydro hammer [Re: DarylS]
      #176630 - 05/03/11 11:22 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Daryl S, Thank You for that info, much appreciated!

Man, I can't believe you sold that .358 NM!
Daryl, if it makes you feel any better, we have all done the same thing!
I now use a philosophy that I borrowed from some other more knowledgeable shooter/journalist, "I Only Find Accurate Rifles Interesting"!

And while you can still use them, Never Sell them!!!

FYI, I use Winchester 748 Ball Powder exclusively, in my .350 Rem Mags. They both shoot very well with it.

My next order to Midway USA, will include a couple of Lee Reloading Manuals and a Lee, Lead Hardness Tester!
Von Gruff, sent me (among other things), a heap of info on reloading hard cast bullets in the .404 Jeffery. This included some info from Mr Lee about lead hardness, chamber pressures and achieving "Leading Free" muzzle velocities!

Doh!
homer

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27093
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Hydro hammer [Re: Homer]
      #176636 - 05/03/11 12:52 PM

I ran my .375 up to 2,800fps without leading and achieving 1 1/2 MOA using the 250gr. RCBS bullet right at .376". I used WW bullets heated to 5 degrees below slump, then quenched. Supposedly they were harder than 30 brinel. I also used LBT Blue for lube. Not a spec of leading in 30 shots without cleaning.

Up to 2,000fps in .45 and .50 cals. I use straight Canadian WW with Lyman's Moly lube (not the old black Lyman pistol lube with graphite- it's garbage, ihmo). No leading with the moly, but it's messy to apply. Isopropyl alcohol helps remove it from fingrs. Bullets are sized .459".

Apparently the WW in this part of the Province run brinel 12 to 13. They are quite hard compared to other places, I'm told. I have seen listings as low as brinel 9 back East in the States. There is no Zinc or pure lead in my alloy. All stick-on weights (pure lead) are removed before melting & we don't have zinc weights yet - as far as I know. Zinc will destroy your entire melt and there's no way to get it out of the melt. Zinc WW have a "Z" on them & are probably large for their weight. I'm still shooting WW I gathered up 25 years ago - many hundreds of pounds at that time. Still have over 100 pounds of them.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Hydro hammer [Re: DarylS]
      #176723 - 07/03/11 07:26 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Thanks again Daryl, I appreciate the info on cast bullets and wheel weights!
Especially that "Z" for zinc detail!!!

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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