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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 735
Loc: West UK
450/400 double rifle
      #173591 - 22/12/10 08:50 AM

Now I have more time to play you may be interested in this double rifle I bought at Holt's last year

It is marked "Jean Van Malle - Brevete a Bruxelles - Arquebusier de S. M. le Roi Milan 1er de Serbia" = S.M. (His Majesty) King Milan 1st of Serbia

The King was a very interesting guy, reigning 1882-1889 when he unexpectedly abdicated

A British and American connection is that he allegedly had an affair with (among others) Jenny Jerome, mother of Winston Churchill!!

I have nothing on the gunmaker Jean Van Malle of Brussels - can anyone help?

Described by Holt's as probably re-stocked, my ex H&H gunsmith considers not, but has been completely restored by one of the better name companies. In UK that would have been almost as much as I paid for it, so I am concerned something is not quite right

To my untrained eye it seems to be to good to be true, mostly in the white, action is as tight as new, engraving crisp, but with odd queries









If it has been re- stocked, the inletting is very good





Button release on fore end



Nice belly!



Liege proofs plus '96'?







Very crisp engraving as if it was done (re-done?) yesterday



Sights are all folding - why? is this rare? The browning clear



Bores are good, I have not shot it yet



Rim recess appears for a thicker rim than the Bertram



No butt plate unusual on a good quality rifle?? with nice wood? -Does it indicate re-stocking?

There is no half cock -any ideas?

I assume 450/400 3 1/4 " - from date (1880s?) and chambering 3 inch does not chamber fully although the rim recess is thicker - but I only have Bertram brass, did the 3 1/4 inch exist with a thicker rim?

Please comment, help or just enjoy!

TH44

Edited by CptCurl (22/12/10 11:26 AM)

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...
Re: 450/400 double rifle [Re: TH44]
      #173592 - 22/12/10 09:18 AM

There appears to be a stoning mark on the lockplate between the lockplate's aft fastener and the rear of the maker's name "banner".

There are some dents underneath the browning but I won't make a call on a refinish on them.

The stock MAY have had a light refinish (in part)

Otherwise all appears well. (BTW the stock has some oil penetration at the rear of the top tang.)

Comments?

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1794
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: 450/400 double rifle [Re: kamilaroi]
      #173622 - 22/12/10 08:45 PM

IMHO only a chamber cast will show the real chambering of the rifle! Regarding the age I suppose it is rather a .450-400 2 3/8" BPE aka 10.3 x60R than a .450-400 3 or 3 1/4", if it is a British chambering at all. As you mention a deep rim recess and as it is a continental European make, it may be chambered for one of the countless cartridges on the so-called Mauser MB base. Regarding the "Serbian connection" of the maker, the 10.15x63R M1878 Serbian Mauser cartridge may be a likely candidate.
Jean van Malle is not listed in my sources on Belgian gunmakers, but apparently he had patented (brevete) a feature of this gun, perhaps the rebounding lockwork without half cock? Most likely the rifle was made by the specialized Liege guntrade for van Malle. European guns are usually signed by the retailer, often not the real maker.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: 450/400 double rifle [Re: TH44]
      #173626 - 22/12/10 09:30 PM

Hi TH44,
Nice gun!

I think the name on the rib is actually Jean Van Maele. (not Malle)

You could try googling "Jean Van Maele rifle" or similar.
Like Kuduae said, that could be the retailers name rather than the makers.
The rifle looks like it is very well made, along the lines of Francotte or other quality Belgian makers.
As you say, the inletting is very well done.
It looks like it has had a tidy up done recently, and the lumps appear to have had a clean up on their lower surface for some reason.
But I say again, it appears to be very well made and is a very nice piece.
Hopefully Capt Curl and others here will have a close look at your photos and give their thoughts on the rifle.

Also, Kuduae's advice on doing a chamber cast is spot on.

Are their any other marks/stamps on the barrels or action?

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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 735
Loc: West UK
Re: 450/400 double rifle [Re: 4seventy]
      #173641 - 23/12/10 05:14 AM

4seventy your eyesight is excellent! With a 10x glass I can see clearly that you are right and it is indeeed Jean van MAELE

Hopefully kuduae may have something on him

Having googled it as you suggested there are a couple of examples - a single shot and a revolver recovered from the river Thames, both very cheap looking

Also a post on www.doublegunshop.com I cannot access

Kamiloroi - the locks appear to have been stoned as well as the general refinishing

What is the oil penetration at the back of the top tang please? I cannot see it

How do I do a chamber cast with what is available in the uk?

All 3 450/400 cases chamber, I went for the 3 1/4 inch as I thought as the shoulder is further forward than the 2 7/8, and less forward than the 3 inch, which is a very tight fit, as well as being developed later. I will of course now check the other calibres mentioned

I would obviously appreciate Capt. Curl and others comments and opinions

Many thanks to you so far

TH44

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1794
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: 450/400 double rifle [Re: TH44]
      #173649 - 23/12/10 06:41 AM

Quote:

Hopefully kuduae may have something on him

How do I do a chamber cast with what is available in the uk?


Have already looked up van Maele as well as van Malle, found nothing. But I will do further research.
For making a chamber cast Cerrosafe (TM) is probably best, it is marketed in the USA and imported at least to Germany. Or, you may try to find a source in the UK for "Wood's metal", that is the scientific name for the same stuff and it is used for safety seals on gas bottles fi. It melts at about 80degrees Celsius, below boiling water. Stuff a wad of tissue or so into the barrel and pour molten Wood's metal into the chamber and an inch or so of rifling. Push it back out with a dovel or cleaning rod soon after solidifiing, measure after an hour or so.
Or you may use the classic material, molten sulphur. Here you have to lightly oil chamber and bore. Sulphur casts are very frangible and may catch fire while melting. That stinks, so do it outdoors.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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doubleriflejack
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Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: 450/400 double rifle [Re: TH44]
      #173650 - 23/12/10 06:42 AM

I am quite sure that this is a black powder rifle; one should not fire full nitro cartridges in it. Of course, nitro for black would be fine.

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5290
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: 450/400 double rifle [Re: TH44]
      #173651 - 23/12/10 06:44 AM

Well, I haven't said anything because I don't know the maker. It's a nice rifle and you will enjoy shooting it once you get it up and running.

My first thought was the same as kuduae: a .450-400 2 3/8" BPE aka 10.3 x60R. That's the one I would vote for. However, he makes a good point that there were other possibilities on the Continent during that period. I'm not familiar with any of the other Continental possibilities.

I believe we can surely rule out the .450/.400 3" as that cartridge came too late and was never loaded as a black powder round. It was a Jeffery development specifically for nitro loading with the intent that it not readily chamber in any black powder chamber.

The .450/.400 3 1/4" BPE is a possibility and would be an excellent outcome to this riddle. That is a wonderful cartridge and very pleasant to shoot. Yes it was later adapted to nitro loading, but clearly this is a black powder rifle, so don't even toy with that notion.

I have a marvelous James Woodward double rifle chambered in the .450/.400 3 1/4" BPE. It is a delight to load for and a joy to shoot. If that's your chamber, you are in luck; and if so, I'll be glad to share my loading data with you. I'm loading NfB in that one.

A chamber cast is imperative. You should be able to order cerrosafe for delivery to the UK. It's Brownell's product, but I think Midway USA may stock it and maybe also Huntingtons. It's silly simple to use and answers these riddles with authority. Contact Brownell and you problem in that regard should be easily solved.

Now as to the rifle itself, I have one complaint: no sling eyes. (Very minor complaint, I admit!) When you take this weapon afield to smite a deer you will have your hands full when dragging your deer out of the woods and carrying the rifle without provision for a sling. It's certainly a beauty and looks to be well-restored. A bit to "new" looking for a 100+ year old antique, but many like them restored.

You are really going to enjoy shooting it. Congratulations.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5290
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: 450/400 double rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #173652 - 23/12/10 06:46 AM

A follow-up:

I don't see any oil stains in the stock. But my eyes are getting older by the day. It looks sound and well fit to me.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1794
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: 450/400 double rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #173653 - 23/12/10 07:07 AM

Another hint at Jean van Maele:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20t%20w/a%20van%20maele%20jean%20gb.htm
His brevete =patent may not be related to this double rifle at all. At those times it was customary with gunmakers and retailers to brag about having invented something, related or not to the product they tried to sell .

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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