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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifle Photos & Archive
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crusty
.224 member


Reged: 06/06/08
Posts: 29
Loc: New Zealand
Crusty's Carl Grundig
      #157190 - 23/03/10 12:42 PM

Some photos of my Grundig rifle, not as tidy as Podewils example, but almost identical. The engraving does not look as deep in the photos, but the engraving is very dark, maybe blued, so does not stand out as well.

My photos were taken inside, so not as nice as Podewils photos.



The proof marks are crown over V, U, R & G




The butt plate is a hard rubber with no engraving



Nice engraved trigger guard




The rifle looks grubby, I have done nothing to it since purchase. I need to make a new mainspring for the left lock as the original is broken. The hammers are not original and hit the action below the firing pins. I guess I will have to try and find or make some new hammers.

The bores are marked as 47 & 48 bore and are Henry style rifling but eight groove, not 7 or 9 as usual.

Steve

Edited by CptCurl (24/03/10 09:35 PM)

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9101
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Crusty's Carl Grundig [Re: crusty]
      #157209 - 23/03/10 07:32 PM

crusty, we need mooore pics! what is the cartridge your DR is chambered for?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5290
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Re: Crusty's Carl Grundig [Re: lancaster]
      #157239 - 24/03/10 03:43 AM

Crusty,

Thanks for posting. Yes, please give more information about this piece.

As for hammers or other parts, try this link:

http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/Centrefire___Pinfire.html

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Crusty's Carl Grundig [Re: crusty]
      #157246 - 24/03/10 04:45 AM

Crusty,

A very warm welcome and congratulations on owning a fine old piece!

Yes, +1 for more information and do post often. Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Anonymous
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Re: Crusty's Carl Grundig [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #157250 - 24/03/10 05:16 AM

Lovely gun you have there, classic lines, and I'm sure a wealth of great history with that specimen.

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crusty
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Reged: 06/06/08
Posts: 29
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Crusty's Carl Grundig [Re: ]
      #157261 - 24/03/10 07:22 AM

Lancaster,

This rifle is chambered for the same cartridge as Podewils Grundig. Podewils had Dave Davison at CH4D make him some dies about seven years ago. It seems that Dave made four sets at that time in case someone else wanted some, so I have ordered a set.

Podewils & Dave came up with the name "12.3 x 62mmR Grundig". As you may have seen in the photos above, my barrels are marked 47 & 48 bore. The case is probably based on the .43 Mauser, although modern .43 cases seem a little undersize in the head.

It seems that the crown over V mark was only applied between 1891 - 1894 so dates the rifle fairly well.
"G" is for a rifled barrel designed to fire bullet
"U" is for black powder final test
"R" indicates a retest after repair

I can't find any info for the round stamp bottom right on the second photo.

The only history I know of this rifle is that it came from the estate of a well known collector who was a fellow member of NZ Antique Arms Assn. I have two other rifles from his estate, a Martini in .360 2 1/4" and a (cased)Westley Richards Improved in 577/500 No2 Express.

Steve

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1794
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Crusty's Carl Grundig [Re: crusty]
      #157279 - 24/03/10 10:28 AM

The "Voratszeichen" = In stock mark, V under crown stamp similar to the London "view" mark, was stamped on guns "ready for sale" on maker's and dealer's shelves when the 1891 German proof law became effective on April 1, 1893 to document they were made earlier and so exempt from proof. As I have a copy of the original "Bekanntmachung, betreffend die Anbringung des Vorrathszeichens auf Handfeuerwaffen" = public order regarding the application of the stock stamp on firearms from January 4, 1893 I can posibly date it closer. The German city and county authorities had to order these stamps from the Royal Arsenal in Spandau and were to destroy them after April 1, 1893. so the time span for the crown/V stamp is limited to February-March 1893. As this rifle also shows a post-April 1, 1893 "repair" proof, it was either rechambered/rebored later or simply submitted for proof "just to be sure". According to the original proof tables, a 47 gauge = 11.76mm = .463" plug passed one barrel bore at the proofhouse, while the other was slightly narrower and allowed only a 48 gauge = 11.68mm = .460 plug.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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crusty
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Reged: 06/06/08
Posts: 29
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Crusty's Carl Grundig [Re: kuduae]
      #157282 - 24/03/10 10:44 AM

kuduae,

Thanks for that excellent info! How many guns can be dated from a single proof mark! - not many I'm sure. Even if the maker is still in business it can be hard to date a firearm.

I did drop a .463 bullet down the 47 bore barrel but found it would stick half way down the 48 bore barrel. However it only just stuck, so the bores are still very close in size.

Do you know if the cartridge naming convention at the time would relate to the bore size? Should I call this a 11.7mm cartridge? Would the bullet have been bore diameter like som English cartridges?

Steve

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lancaster
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Re: Crusty's Carl Grundig [Re: crusty]
      #157331 - 24/03/10 08:05 PM

very clever from Dave to have such a ultra rare die set on stock. I had not thought that someone would need this die again in my lifetime. Dave its a good guy and allways fun to deal with him.
I would go with the 12,3x62R Gründig designation. we dont know it any better!
its a unusual length for the mauser case. we know that there were over 100 different cases, sized up and down, cut it to every length possible. but only a few cases exist with 70 mm long brass. I found this with 11,5 and 12,5mm bullet diameter, also a 12,4x50R, but no case with a 12,3mm diameter inside.
with a second DR now we can say it was a Gründig caliber. in this time any german ammunition maker was able to make Gründig the brass on demand. I am sure that he was loading ammuntion in his shop. butllet had have a sometimes very oversized "stopring" on top like here in this pic the first example: 18mm bullet diameter and 18,5mm "stopring" diameter

this large diameter ring was laying against case mouth when loading for giving the cartridges a constant length.
reloading die set were not overcomplicated in the old days, here is a german die for the 9,3x57R 360 ( with a 360 BPE coiled case. I would not wonder if the bullet diameter above the case was 12,5mm or bigger.






its no problem with modern brass and blackpowder pressure if the chamber s a little bit to large I suspect. they dont see such problems in the 19.century and it probably wasn't. it start with high pressure nitro loads.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (24/03/10 09:37 PM)

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Crusty's Carl Grundig [Re: crusty]
      #164252 - 16/07/10 04:20 AM

Quote:


The proof marks are crown over V, U, R & G





Valentin Friedrich Langenhan had a very similar mark and was active along with his father in his shop by the mid 1840s. His firm was sourced for components for lock and set triggers and prior to WWI, possibly during, I believe Gustoff sourced them for components. His mark is an encircled "FLZ"(Friedrich(Fritz?) Langenhan Zella Sankt Blasii but I can't make your letters match.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1794
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Crusty's Carl Grundig [Re: ellenbr]
      #164349 - 17/07/10 02:43 AM

Hi Raimey, to me this stamp looks very much like a 1975 (A) Birmingham proofhouse date stamp! Perhaps this rifle passed the Birmingham proofhouse in 1975 and was given a "proof exemption certificate" due to nonavailability of factory cartridges?

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Crusty's Carl Grundig [Re: kuduae]
      #164353 - 17/07/10 04:43 AM

Greetings Axel and I thought the same but did not consider the "proof exemption certificate". I thought there would be some other Birmingham mark of sorts. As always thanks for the insight.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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