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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9101
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Carl Gründig/ Dresden
      #153273 - 10/02/10 07:39 PM

a Gründig Double Rifle for an unknown 12,3x63R blackpowder round, based on the 11,2x60R mauser case.
I see it on gunboards and because all the many different wildcats on mauser brass are interesting for me I contact podewils, the owner,about it. thats what he was telling me about the rifle:I bought my Gruendig D/R over twenty-five years ago whilst I was still living in Australia. The man I purchased it from was a German immigrant who came to Australia in the 1950s, from Hamburg, however he had bought the rifle in Australia & he didn't seem to know how it had gotten there. His interest was more in the single-shot stalking rifles & he sold the Gruendig to me to help finance the purchase of a rifle he said had belonged to Herman Goerring (the Luftwaffe guy). My rifle weighs a little less than 6.5lbs (about 3kg), & most people think it is a .410g shotgun at first glance!












the cartridge with a 45/70 for comparison

will send podewils the link maybe he come in and will say more about this. its a teutonic double rifle like it have to be!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (10/02/10 10:10 PM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5290
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Carl Gründig/ Dresden [Re: lancaster]
      #153287 - 10/02/10 10:11 PM

Lancaster,

That's a lovely double rifle. How does it shoot?

Thanks for posting.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Carl Gründig/ Dresden [Re: lancaster]
      #153448 - 12/02/10 03:46 PM

Absolutely beautiful! Congratulations!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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crusty
.224 member


Reged: 06/06/08
Posts: 29
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Carl Gründig/ Dresden [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #154766 - 25/02/10 02:27 PM

I would like to see more info about this one, as it is very much like mine only tidier looking.
Any info about the load he uses would be helpful.

Steve


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Metalguy
.300 member


Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Carl Gründig/ Dresden [Re: crusty]
      #154973 - 27/02/10 02:13 PM

Take it hunting!!! and send pics

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39990
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Carl Gründig/ Dresden [Re: Metalguy]
      #155335 - 03/03/10 03:49 AM

Very nice especially the engraving.

At the muzzle end it sure could be a shotgun at least from the photo.

Does your friend shoot it?

Also get your mate to send me an email as he is having problems joining.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: Carl Gründig/ Dresden [Re: NitroX]
      #155347 - 03/03/10 05:42 AM

john,send him your message as a pm
what I understand is that he shoots this beast. the cartridge must be very similar to the 50/110 Winchester in the original blackpowder load or the old german 12,7x65R 500 express. the short 500 BPE which was also available with a 60 mm long case (12,7x60R 500)is one of the rounds I am looking for a rifle seriously for many years now.
remember a belgian cape gun(true cape gun because the rifled barrel was on the left side)for the 50/110 Win Exp.
this 12,3x63R here must be realy cylindrical! the mauser case measure 13,00mm on the base so with a 12.3mm bullet diameter you have 0,35mm for the wall thickness.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Podewils
.224 member


Reged: 12/03/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Inland NW, USA
Re: Carl Gründig/ Dresden [Re: lancaster]
      #156233 - 12/03/10 07:11 AM

Hello all, thanks to Lars & John I've finally been able to successfully register on the forum. Thanks for all the nice comments about my rifle, I have certainly enjoyed owning it. I am in the process of relocating so don't have access to my records, but I'll try & answer some of your questions. Please bear in mind that this is the only rifle of this type that I own, & I am still a novice when it comes to double rifles so I'm hoping that I can learn something from you guys here.

Yes, I do shoot it though not regularly, but no I've never hunted with it.....that is to say I've never taken any game with it though I did take it out one evening when I was up in Darwin back in the late '80s but we saw nothing suitable to shoot with it. The cartridge cases I have are those that came with the rifle when I first bought it in the early 1980s, they are BELL-brand .43 Mauser Basic, & have the 'A' base. I had a bullet mold made shortly after getting the rifle by a guy in Victoria who would recut mold blocks that you sent to him. I didn't really know what weight bullet the rifle would need & ended up having the mold cut to drop a 485 grain grease-grooved bullet of .478" diameter. From my readings in more recent years, particularly Ross Seyfried articles, it seems my choice of bullet weight was a lucky guess! However, I also determined that the bullet was a bit undersized after I made some chamber castings a few years back when I was getting ready to order some reloading dies from CH-4D. To overcome that I paper patch the bullets to give me a diameter of .488". The rifling is of the Henry style &, from what I understand, they tend to do better with PP bullets anyway.
As far as loading goes I have been using Ross Seyfried's Nitro for Black formula using IMR4198. As I mentioned my records are currently packed away, but from memory I'm using something like 34 grains of powder. I've tried them with poly-fiber, Cream of Wheat, & loose, with the loose powder charges seeming to give slighly better groups. My local range has berms for 25, 50, & 100 yards, so I have shot the Gruendig mostly at 50yds. I have shot it from a bench but found the recoil to be a little heavy doing so, my preferred method when trying out loads is to use a 'standing bench' where I can still have a steady rest but still be standing in an almost natural off-hand stance, this makes it much more pleasant to shoot. I generally shoot 4-shot groups (2x left, 2x right) & groups are right around 2" at 50 yards from memory.....I have some targets & will post pictures when we get settled into our new home.
Some features of the rifle that are not readilly apparent from the above photos; the rifle's twin triggers are both single-set, but from experience would recommend that you NOT set both of them at the same time.....the recoil from both barrels going off together was memorable! In addition to the barrel mounted sights (100m standing & 200m leaf) there is also a dainty little aperture sight that flips up out of the tang, the tip of which you can see in the close-up photo. This sight doesn't give any additional elevation but just seems to give better definition to the open sight. I'm assuming this is for the more deliberate shots rather than the instinctive ones, does anyone know if this is a correct assumption on my part?
The action is, I believe, of the LeFacheaux design but has the twin lugs so it is quite a rugged little action. When the barrels are removed the forend pivots down & remains attached to the action. I assume that may be a common feature on this style of rifle(?). The underlever is made of horn & has a small gouge in it were a previous owner had tried to close the action while the forend latch was still partly down. The buttplate, as you can see in the photos, is carved with a scene of Diana the goddess of the hunt. I was told the buttplate was also horn, but I have my doubts & it seems to be more of an early synthetic (any ideas?). I understand the rifle was made c.1895 & it has no nitro proofmarks.
I hope this has answered most of your questions. If you have any more please ask & I will do my best to answer them. Though it may take a few weeks before I can get around to it I'll also take some more photos of different areas of the rifle if there are any specific request (eg. proofmarks, etc.)


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Carl Gründig/ Dresden [Re: Podewils]
      #156236 - 12/03/10 07:47 AM

Podewils, you are right in your assumption. Those fold-down European peep sights were indeed only intended as an optical device to sharpen up the images of target, front- and rear sight!
Your buttplate is indeed not made of plastic, but of heat-pressed horn or,at best hard rubber called "Ebonite". The double grip Lefaucheux action, as patented in 1836, was the continental European standard action during the second half of the 19th century, but went out of use on rifles with the advent of smokeless. As I have yet to see a continental single-bite Lefaucheux action, I believe this to be a British simplification. Perhaps Mr. Joseph Lang, who made a copy of a Lefaucheux pinfire after seing on e at the Crystal Palace Exhibition, did not fully understand the importance of the original double bite.
Does your rifle have any BUG proofmarks under the barrels? If not, it was made and sold before April 1, 1893, the day the proof law became effective.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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Podewils
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Reged: 12/03/10
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Loc: Inland NW, USA
Re: Carl Gründig/ Dresden [Re: kuduae]
      #156243 - 12/03/10 08:46 AM

Kuduae, the marks under the barrels are as follows;
On the flats: Eagle next to a crown/G, below those is another eagle, then a crown/U under that, followed by a 46 at the bottom. These markings are repeated on both the left & right side flats.
On the barrels just ahead of the flats: Eagle next to crown/G, below that an S in an elongated diamond. On the action flat, there is an eagle over a crown/U. There are no other markings on the rifle apart from the maker/address on the barrel rib.
Does this give you a better idea of a manufacture date? My assumption has been that the 46 is a bore/guage size, much like the English use of the 25 on .577 caliber arms, & that the crown/U marks are inspection marks on the unfinished component parts. Am I correct on this?


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Carl Gründig/ Dresden [Re: Podewils]
      #156253 - 12/03/10 10:10 AM

Podewils, the proofmarks show indeed the rifle was made/proofed after April 1,1893, the day the 1891 prooflaw became effective. The eagle is the mark for the preliminary proof of the rough barrels, searching for defective material.The G under crown stands for "gezogen" = rifled, final proof charge of the rifled barrel fired. "U under crown" is the same as the British "view" mark, it stands for "Untersuchung",the thorough inspection of the gun after firing the proof charge. The "S in diamond" is probably the mark of the unidentified barrel maker. "46" is indeed the gauge number, lead balls to the pound, same as in Britain. It tells us a 46 gauge plug = 11.84mm = .466" passed the bore at the proofhouse, a 45 gauge = 11.91mm = .469" did not, according to the proof tables. This is for the bore, not the rifling or bullet diameter! The gauge numbers went out of use in 1912, mm numbers used from then on. A cartridge fitting your dimensions is not listed even by Dixon, so it must be a very rare wildcat or proprietary chambering. IMHO your rifle was made shortly after 1893, very close to the end of the blackpowder era.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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lancaster
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Re: Carl Gründig/ Dresden [Re: kuduae]
      #156286 - 12/03/10 08:16 PM

I would recommend to make a closer lock on the buttplate with a good magnifying glass. if carved you must see some traces where the tool have cut the material. if pressed under heat the surfaced will look like some kind of glaze, maybe with little bubble's where it was become to hot.
for the history of your rifle: in the "god old day" a double rifle like yours was very expensive. chance is very high that it was a noble man from upper saxony, a Herr von XYZ. such a big bore was bought for shooting red dear and wild boar. some older gentleman like this here in the middle


btw, on this site from the member chapmen is an old gründig paper
http://www.jagdwaffensammler.de/index.php?id=12

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/10 07:49 PM)


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Podewils
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Reged: 12/03/10
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Loc: Inland NW, USA
Re: Carl Gründig/ Dresden [Re: lancaster]
      #156330 - 13/03/10 06:13 AM

Kuduae, thanks for the additional information, all very interesting & welcome. Lars, when I get a chance I will have a closer look at the buttplate. It is very smooth & I don't see any of the 'grain' that is quite obvious in the horn underlever, so I expect it to be a pressed buttplate rather than carved, possibly the Ebonite that Kuduae mentioned. I have seen horn buttplates on other guns that have started to flake, almost looks like they are delaminating, mine shows no such symptoms.
I really liked the Gruendig invoice. I see that it was dated 1926, would the Carl Gruendig who made my rifle have been around then, or was it just the business name that was still in use? I see the invoice shows a Max & Hugo Gruendig below the business name, I assume they are Carl's sons & would have taken over the business. Does anyone know if the business is still operating, or did they go out of business or possibly bought out by a larger gunmaker?


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: Carl Gründig/ Dresden [Re: Podewils]
      #156333 - 13/03/10 06:24 AM

Max and Hugo Gründig are the owners(Inhaber) of the shop in this 1926 invoice, iirc they are the son's
some times ago I read that the shop exist in 1939 but if not closed in the years of ww 2 it was possible burning to dust in the february of 1945.
if the buttplate is presseed sometimes another one will show up somewhere.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Podewils
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Reged: 12/03/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Inland NW, USA
Re: Carl Gründig/ Dresden [Re: lancaster]
      #168633 - 28/09/10 12:20 PM

Due to life's circumstances, I have now listed this rifle for sale in the classified section of this forum if anyone is interested.

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