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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
257 Roberts vs 257 Roberts Ackley Improved
      #112670 - 27/08/08 09:36 AM

Have any of you fact-based preferences for one or the other?

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...
Re: 257 Roberts vs 257 Roberts Ackley Improved [Re: Tatume]
      #112675 - 27/08/08 10:03 AM

A 40 degree neck Ackley Roberts any day. I get an easy 3500fps with 87 grain pills and 2950 with 120s; NO pressure signs. There is however an issue of 87 and 100 grainers breaking up on medium deer sized animals shot under 200 yards, leaving a fist sized entry wound. The 120s I use are Nosler Partitions.

Rifle used is a Carl Gustaf with a 26" Shilen #4 profile. Powder is ADI 2209.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5522
Loc: United States
Re: 257 Roberts vs 257 Roberts Ackley Improved [Re: kamilaroi]
      #112727 - 27/08/08 10:56 PM

Interesting post and question.

I do not have one, but keep teetering on the fence as to whether to buy one as a "ranch rifle" for varmints, deer and rarely elk or bear. For my needs, my 6.5x55's have served similarly and well and possibly better due to ability to handle long bullets. I've always wondered about a quick twist .257 with 130 or 135 grain custom bullets. It is a caliber that I do believe could kick me into a bullet swaging setup...

Anyway, from what I have read, the biggest problem with the STANDARD .257 is the "lousy" factory ammo ballistics and the reputation these rounds have garnered ON PAPER. In the field most folks report they kill well, and boosting the velocities to what the various modern rifle actions can take would put the cartridge in another realm yet above factory level ammo performance.

If {when} I get one, I believe it will be the regular vanilla version as I don't see enough improvement by the Ackley to warrant the cost FOR ME. This is NOT to criticize the Ackely at all, as it is a super cartridge, only to show my hand about my hesitation to pay money for extras on utility rifles I'd wind up beating up any-ole-how...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2121
Loc: United States
Re: 257 Roberts vs 257 Roberts Ackley Improved [Re: 9.3x57]
      #112731 - 27/08/08 11:28 PM

in the 25 cal rifles, I love the standard 257 Roberts, and with handloaded ammo, (with a good strong action) it can be boosted quite a bit over it's original factory loading. However, if you want more still, it makes a lot more sense to make a 25-06 than it does an "Roberts Improved"

Look at the price of the chamber reamers and the dies. Not to mention the cost of bullets and powder for fireforming.

A 25-06 and a Roberts Improved are ballistically about equal, but the 06 case usually feeds with no problem, where as the "improved" can need some action work. Again, more money spent to get nothign additional.
I have made dozens of 25-06s and about twenty 257 Roberts Improved rifles in the last 30 years as a gunsmith.
I would choose the standard 257 or the 25-06. I would have no use for the "Improved Roberts".

There's nothing wrong with it per se, but just nothing particularly right with it either.
My 2 cents worth.
SZ

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
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Re: 257 Roberts vs 257 Roberts Ackley Improved [Re: szihn]
      #112735 - 28/08/08 12:04 AM

OK fellahin,

257 AR is a good round for these parts up to 500 yards if you can do it. Mine is zeroed at 300 with abt 24 inch drop at 500.

Game is at best red deer to dingo (realisable body mass as a PoA at extreme range).

An 87 grain Speer load of 51 gn of 4350 WAS 3750fps with no pressure signs so in the interests of sanity and OHS I backed off to 3500.

Otherwise I would endorse a 6.5 x 55 as the best ARR up to 500KG meat. (a mate took a Kudu with 56" with a 6.5 Fraser Brummy retail model)

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MarinePMI
.275 member


Reged: 21/04/08
Posts: 92
Loc: San Diego, CA USA
Re: 257 Roberts vs 257 Roberts Ackley Improved [Re: kamilaroi]
      #112749 - 28/08/08 02:12 AM

Ahhh...the venerable AI debate.

I often suspect people forget how the AI concept came about, and truly how little it delivers these days (performance wise) over the standard chamberings.

"Ackley Improved" came about as a result of limited powders in those days, where by and large the majority of powders were some derivitive of surplus military powder sold to the shooting community. Since there were often wide gaps in performance between the powders, the AI modification reaped huge benefits by allowing additional slower burning powders to be used and taking advantage of the gases in conjuction with the shoulder angle change. This is not often true these days (or at least worth the trade offs).

There are exceptions to the rule. Even today, many of the straight walled cartridges will benefit (AI Hornet comes to mind immediately), but sadly, with advent of newer modern powders with wide ranging burn rates, AI is not really benefitial (IMHO) for most bottle necked cartridges. There's just not enough performance gain to warrant the increased throat erosion that occurs (largely due to faster burning, modern powders). In addition to this, AI can serious impede reliability in feeding. Many times the sharp shoulder angle is problematic at best, and sheer hell in some actions at the other end of the spectrum.

BTW, these are not just my feelings on it, these were actually Ackley's as well, years after the AI craze went overboard. An older and close friend of mine, showed me the letters that he and Ackley exchanged over the years on the subject, and it was enlightening to say the least...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking "doing it" (the joy of this passion/hobby is often times doing things "just because I can"), I'm just throwing out some food for thought. (I wish I had a dime for every crack pot, one off thing I did... )

YMMV...

--------------------
MarinePMI

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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: 257 Roberts vs 257 Roberts Ackley Improved [Re: MarinePMI]
      #112777 - 28/08/08 08:53 AM

I think I'm going to ask my wife for a Cooper for a "Christmas rifle" this year (a tradition in our home :-). The Cooper Clasic M22 single shot is available in several interesting calibers. In addition to the 257 Roberts, they also offer the 25-06, and Ackley Improved versions of both. My collection of loading manuals indicates that with the 25-06 I can duplicate low-end 257 Roberts loads with No. 4895, and exceed high-end Roberts loads with No. 4350, and the same weight bullets. So, now I'm wondering if the 25-06 isn't the best of both worlds?

Take are, Tom

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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2121
Loc: United States
Re: 257 Roberts vs 257 Roberts Ackley Improved [Re: Tatume]
      #112789 - 28/08/08 12:56 PM

Here's something for you to look at.
Get out some manuals and compare the 257 Weatherby to the 25-06 with like barrel lengths.
You might be suprized to see how close they are.
If you doubt it, get a 25-06 with a 26" barrel and do some chronograph yourself (I have done that on 3 occasions with 3 Weatherby's and 3 25-06s that I made for customers in the last 20 years)
Again, seeing is believing.

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 257 Roberts vs 257 Roberts Ackley Improved [Re: szihn]
      #112795 - 28/08/08 01:43 PM

Read with great interest in this as I have been shooting a .257 Weatherby for about 8 years.. with one of my best friends shooting a 25-06..while I do believe they are close--IMHO, the .257 Weatherby still rules the roost ..

The last time we went out together..he has a lightweight variety of Weatherby..we reloaded 100gr Barnes Triple shocks..(used that bullet was we both carry these for deer and antelope..however occassionally use them in the spring for bear or run into a elk in the fall)..anyway..he was getting slightly over 3400 with the 25-06--and yes, the loads were quite hot...having said that it was with a 24" barrel..

I was shooting a Remington titanium action custom with a Hart Barrel.26" and HS stock..Timmney trigger..-same bullet..and have chronographed loads shooting 3 holes touching at 3800 fps..again very hot load..but shootable..have since loaded it down to 3750 fps..

Actually had this discussion yesterday in Ennis, MT at Shedhorn Sports--with a dealer who shot at the annual Cooper Challenge last week...(if you own a Cooper, you can go there for this annual event--one shot competition)..he stated with his 26" he was shooting 115 gr bullet at 3140 fps..with basically one hole groups...again, with my loads I am over 200 fps faster with same bullet..

This is only "my" experience ..as there as so many variables, I am sure there are also very many different results...however admittedly, I really do have a bias for the Weatherby round..not a big fan of the guns...but like some of their rounds..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 257 Roberts vs 257 Roberts Ackley Improved [Re: Tatume]
      #112796 - 28/08/08 01:48 PM

Quote:

I think I'm going to ask my wife for a Cooper for a "Christmas rifle" this year (a tradition in our home :-). The Cooper Clasic M22 single shot is available in several interesting calibers. In addition to the 257 Roberts, they also offer the 25-06, and Ackley Improved versions of both. My collection of loading manuals indicates that with the 25-06 I can duplicate low-end 257 Roberts loads with No. 4895, and exceed high-end Roberts loads with No. 4350, and the same weight bullets. So, now I'm wondering if the 25-06 isn't the best of both worlds?

Take are, Tom




Tom,

You will love that Cooper should you get one...I have 4 of them in various models at this time---they are a great gun as you are already aware...everyone I know who has one loves them..

Not sure if you know they are now offering a model 52 repeater..I actually just picked up the "jackson hunter" synthetic model in 30-06-- I plan to use for a plains game gun in Africa next time ...the other calibers I currently have with them is in .204 Ruger, 220 Swift and 6-284...all shoot very, very well..have many target with 1/4 " groups or better ...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: 257 Roberts vs 257 Roberts Ackley Improved [Re: Tatume]
      #112801 - 28/08/08 02:07 PM

I own rifles for three Ackley Improved cartridges: an AI .219 Zipper, an AI 6mm Krag, and an AI .25 Krag. All make sense, because they create a rimmed cartridge to fill a vacent niche in the list of cartridges suitable for a single shot rifle. The .25 Niedner (which was the original name for the .25-06) antedated the .257 Roberts, so that vacent niche did not exist in the rimless cartridge lineup. The only excuse for the AI .257 Roberts was that a Remington 722 .257 could be rechambered for it and still feed through the magazine.

The 722 was one of the reasons for the poor performance of the factory round, because factory ammunition had to be loaded to feed through it, which meant that the bullet was seated much too deep, reducing the powder capacity.

I personally think that the AI .257 was popularized by Model 70 Winchester collectors, who wanted to see their unaltered original .257 caliber rifles soar in value, since there are so few of them left which have not been rechambered to the AI version.

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WyoHunter
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Reged: 20/04/03
Posts: 37
Loc: Central Wyoming, USA
Re: 257 Roberts vs 257 Roberts Ackley Improved [Re: xausa]
      #117781 - 28/10/08 03:45 PM

I've owned a .257 Ackley Improved for the last 38 years. It is a pre-64 M70 Winchester with a Douglas Premium Grade barrel. I have taken many antelope, whitetail and mule deer with it using 100 gr. Nosler Partitions chronographed at 3200 fps from its 22" barrel. As far as killing power of one versus the other that's determined by good shot placement using a good bullet. I also own a Weatherby Mark V Euromark in .257 Weatherby Magnum. For antelope and deer I doubt a better cartridge exists that has the same recoil as the .257 AI.

--------------------
Hunting's a lifestyle and a passion not a competition!

NRA Life Member

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wombat
.300 member


Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Australia
Re: 257 Roberts vs 257 Roberts Ackley Improved [Re: szihn]
      #120221 - 03/12/08 09:26 PM

szihn
I am very interested in your comments.I recently watch a friend take a big eland bull with a 257 W and 117gn triple shocks.It did surprisingly well,I shot an eland in '01 with a 416,fair chest shot and tracked it for 24hrs before catching up to it.I have been tossing up as to build the next rifle in 25/06 or 257.How different were they?

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27171
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 257 Roberts vs 257 Roberts Ackley Improved [Re: wombat]
      #120251 - 04/12/08 03:18 AM

My .257 Ackley Imp Roberts liked H4831 along with IMR 4350. With 100gr. Noslers, it got 3,484fps and with 120's, it managed 3,227fps. Bench accuracy at 300 meters stayed under 2" with both loads, which made me very happy. Barrel length, 26".
A 26" .257 Roberts will easily make 3,200fps with 100gr. Noslers or TS's.

In 1978 I chronographed a fellows custom .257 Weatherby built on a ZKK600 action (or 601 - '06 length anyway). he was using a book load supposed to produce 3,800fps with IMR4350. (I know there are much better powders today - and then) He had to use a piece of 2x4 to open his bolt - that chrongraphed 3,482fps - & was only one I'd shoot.

To prove my pressures were in line, while his obviously were way to high, I removed the extractor and fired another round, opened the bolt, stood the rifle on it's butt and a gentle thud on the table and out dropped the empty. I had a fast barrel, while his was a slow one - obviously. We were both using IMR4350 - but my load was about 15gr. to 20gr. less than his. If memory serves - off the top of my head, I'd say my load was 53gr. IMR4350.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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