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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #195735 - 04/12/11 08:52 PM

Have you had time to work on this project? :-)

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #195758 - 04/12/11 11:27 PM

see the Mosin last tuesday, not so much happen till now. the gunmaker is looking for the end of next february. its a lot of work now and we two have a special agreement: I dont make him pressure and he make me a good price.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #197752 - 25/12/11 12:29 AM

do you know the feeling when collecting something special and only one thing is missing to be complete?
this post starts two years ago and I hope you not finding it boring till now. the rifle isnt ready but like two years ago I get a package from finland with very rare things:














its the green-white ammo box, LVE 9,3x53R made in 1970. surprisingly its labeled only in english
seems to be someone there had have a cristal ball in 1970. so the only cartridge box I miss now is the new LVE ammo.
being a strong suporter of the one load for a rifle concept the ligther russian bullet looks like a good idea for roe deer or whitetail deer in Finland and let the original sako bullet for moose.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (26/12/11 10:13 PM)


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tinker
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #197761 - 25/12/11 02:47 AM

Nice!







Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: tinker]
      #197770 - 25/12/11 07:57 AM

So they arrived in time for Christmas?

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #197806 - 25/12/11 09:27 PM

I think it might well be possible to sell the cartridges for 20 euros per round to hardcore cartridge collector's so you did not the best business bokmal
the english labeled box is a mystery, isnt it?

the sako stock for Mosin's also coming



I remember that here is a another pics of an old russian ammo box and its still in russian


the only market for this cartridge was finland so my only explanation is that they make a special "export" box

rare exports, for sure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RQlikX4vvw

the 9,3x53R would be a good choice

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (26/12/11 10:13 PM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #197809 - 25/12/11 09:36 PM

Quote:

I think it might well be possible to sell the cartridges for 20 euros per round to hardcore cartridge collector's so you did not the best business bokmal



The help and friendship you've given over the years are worth much more!

Quote:

the english labeled box is a mystery, isnt it?



My assumption is it is because it could not be imported to Finland or elsewhere without english labeling. Why they've chosen to call it 9mm intead of 9.3mm and x53 instead of x54 is beyond me

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kuduae
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #197814 - 25/12/11 11:50 PM

Quote:

Why they've chosen to call it 9mm intead of 9.3mm and x53 instead of x54 is beyond me



Simple, because they named "their" cartridge in the old European fashion not for the bullet, but for the bore diameter, sans rifling grooves. Remember, Their "9mm Makarov" pistol cartridge uses .365" bullets, so it is actually a 9.3mm too. Or, the European "6.5mm" numbers use .264" = 6.7mm, the "7mm"s .284" = 7.2mm, the "8mmS" .323" = 8.2mm bullets. The maximum length of the 9.3x53R Finnish (CIP name)is 53.3mm, so "53" is a more apt designation.


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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #197819 - 26/12/11 02:13 AM

Beat me to it!

Thanks kuduae.

In addition, the light 9mm Mak FMJ bullets make for grouse loads in the 9.3 rifles. Maybe won't work too well in some of the overbore Swedes, but should go well with true .366 rifles. A load of fast burning pistol powder should take care of it, and if you like, a "Cat's Sneeze" load is another option.

Also, if you look back many years, I think you will find other USSR sporting arms marketed in English, too. IIRC, I've seen various ammo and even the Medved was marketed with English material, tho I cannot verify the latter. Also, I am not aware of any sale of the 9x53 Medved in any English country at at any time. Maybe somebody knows? I remember reading about it when I was a young man and thinking "The Commies really have something here...wish I could get one!"

lanc; I am fascinated by your whole thread. I wrote piece for Wolfe Publishing in the early 90's on the M/N and had a collection of them, and really came to respect them. I always wanted a 9,3x53R but never got around to building one...then met the 9,3x57's and gave up on the idea. Your whole project is absolutely fascinating with its resurrection of this great old idea. And I'm sure the end result will be worthy of much shooting and piles of Moose, too!

Fröhliche Weinachten und auch Waidmansheil, natürlich!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #197833 - 26/12/11 06:15 AM

Quote:

The maximum length of the 9.3x53R Finnish (CIP name)is 53.3mm, so "53" is a more apt designation.



Danke Kuduae! What you say about calibers makes sense.

But still, the x53R case designation is not that clear (not that it makes much of a difference, either). The russians have always designated their old military ammo 7,62x54R while we Finns used 7,62x53R for what is essentially an identical cartridge. I know that many claim that there actually should be a 0,5 mm difference in case lenght, but in reality it often is not there. That's why I wondered why they chose the x53R for a civilian round.

@Lancaster, what is the actual case length?

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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #197834 - 26/12/11 07:32 AM

I do not know if this has anything to do with the x53R noemclature choice, but when you expand a case to receive a larger diameter bullet, the case "shortens" {just like occurs when I neck up 8x57 cases to 9.3 caliber}. Who knows, maybe the Russian engineers measured the x54R case after an experimental trial of the 9.3 {"9mm"} round and just called it "x53R" as a result.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #197835 - 26/12/11 07:55 AM

Quote:

Who knows, maybe the Russian engineers measured the x54R case after an experimental trial of the 9.3 {"9mm"} round and just called it "x53R" as a result.



Could well be the case... I guess we'll never know for sure...

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #197863 - 27/12/11 03:59 AM

I am sorry for being late

CIP maximun lenght 53,30mm

for the 7,62x54R and also the 7,62x53R which also exist in the list the maximum case length are the same 53,50 mm for both.
cartridge designation isnt logic!

the Sako brass is 52,85mm

the LVE brass is 52,74mm

remember that the list giving maximum measurments for the cartridges. the factorys will be allways under this and different lots will shows some small difference also when made in the same year.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Daryl_S
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #197866 - 27/12/11 05:30 AM

My list shows a working pressure of 57,000PSI CIP Pezio for the 7.62x54. I assume this is for the MN rifle.

Hmmm - might have to pick one of those up from Tradex - under $200.00 seems to me. Might make a good sporter and brass is easy to get here. Easy re-barrel and chamber to 9.3x54 as well. Something to think about.

Since gives .30/06 performance in 7.62, if 9.3 or 9.5, should match .35 Whelen through 9.3x62 and .376/06 as well. No flies there.

Intersting rounds and food for thought, tks lancaster.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #197870 - 27/12/11 06:16 AM

Is there any idea to re-barrel Siam Mauser to 9,3x53R ?

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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #197873 - 27/12/11 06:38 AM

Quote:

Hmmm - might have to pick one of those up from Tradex - under $200.00 seems to me. Might make a good sporter and brass is easy to get here. Easy re-barrel and chamber to 9.3x54 as well. Something to think about.



If you do, please use a refurbished M/91-30, not any rarer variant! Pretty please!

Quote:

Since gives .30/06 performance in 7.62, if 9.3 or 9.5, should match .35 Whelen through 9.3x62 and .376/06 as well. No flies there.



My (Finnish) reloading manuals gives the 9.3x53R performance in between the 9,3x57 and the 9.3x62. I think a 9.5x53R would have serious problems in equalling the .376/06 with heavier bullets.

--------------------
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Daryl_S
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #197888 - 27/12/11 09:02 AM

Depends on the actual capacity of the case. At 57,000 psi, there's some room for experimentation.

I don't have a list on the 9.3x53R's currently loaded pressure.

here's an add.

Mosin Nagant M91/30 with Laminated stock. Each rifle comes with bayonet, sling, ammo pouch, cleaning kit and oiler. Overall very good to excellent condition, arsenal refinished. $169.00

$225.00 for the ones listed as Ex-sniper rifles. They do not say if drilled and tapped for side mounts.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #197913 - 27/12/11 04:02 PM

max. pressure:

9,3x53R Finland 3400 bar

9,3x53R Swiss 1800 bar

9x57R 2500 bar

9x56 Mannlicher Schönauer 2400 bar

9x57 Mauser 2500 bar

9,3x57 2600 bar

if the 3400 bar is rigth its very high and the factory load will not use this. I for myself orient on this:




having sevenhundred 16,6 gramm Sako bullets I hope in the end that the identical load of N 140 will shot in the Husqvarna and in the Mosin .

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (27/12/11 11:21 PM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #197928 - 27/12/11 09:01 PM

A friend of a friend pointed out that the Russian 9x53 is really an 9,22 and not a 9,3!
Check linked (Russian) document HUNTING CARTRIDGE 9X53. TYPES AND BASIC DIMENSIONS


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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #197931 - 28/12/11 01:10 AM

Lancaster;

A Doctor from Colorado, USA, over on the Swedish Commerical Arms forum had a 9,3x53R built and also had a 9,3x57. He did quite a number of comparison tests with them both and found them to be virtually identical in his guns. IIRC, he used the exact same loads in each.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Daryl_S
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #197950 - 28/12/11 05:02 AM

I forgot to write down the 'x' bar = 'x' psi multiplier - anyone remember it?

Dividing 57,000 by 3,400 gives 16.76 but that is not the number provided (I don't think) in the other thread - or was it this one?

57,000 is the CIP PSI given for the 9.3x54R on the chart I have.

My chart also shows the 9.3x57 to be loaded by Norma at 43,000PSI. Working backwards from the above listing in bar, the 16.76 multiplier gives 43,566 at the 9.3x57's pressure. Close enough, I guess to my chart. Note the 9.3x57 does not have any CIP standards however we've come to use 8x57 data and headspace for it. The 8x57's pressure is not used for the 9.3x57 as the 8x57's max. pressure is 57,000PSI CIP.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII

Edited by Daryl_S (28/12/11 05:12 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #197952 - 28/12/11 05:29 AM

the bullet diameter of the russian version I found once was 9,25mm and iirc thats .365
also the bullet diameter for the 9mm Makarov. there is no problem with a .366 bullet in a .365 barrel! think about the 404 jeffery - .423 and the 10,75x68 -.424 diameter where barrels of both diameter were used for both cartridges.


when you measure factory bullets of a given diamter its common to found them smaller than expected. not all but many
I load to many obsolete cartridges that I need so much standardisation as possible.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Sarg
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #198183 - 31/12/11 10:05 AM

I was doing some research on Ibex hunts & found a chap on another site who hunts them & look what he has been using !!!

A Mosin !!



--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton

Edited by CptCurl (03/01/12 07:39 AM)


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Carcano
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #198305 - 01/01/12 12:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Why they've chosen to call it 9mm intead of 9.3mm and x53 instead of x54 is beyond me



Simple, because they named "their" cartridge in the old European fashion not for the bullet, but for the bore diameter, sans rifling grooves.




Very correct, Kuduae. The Russian military version of the 9,3x64 (used as a sniper cartridge in the SVDK, and loaded by LVE Novosibirsk) is called "9x64"; yet it uses the same bullet diameter.

Carcano


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Carcano]
      #198381 - 02/01/12 02:19 AM

its true for the 7,62x54R also which must have a 7,62mmm bore to a 7,87mm groove diameter. when we remember that the 9x57 have a bullet diameter of 9,08mm and the 9,3x72R have a maximum bullet diameter of 9,57mm there is at least some kind of a system in the russian style.

I am not a fan of plastik stocks and weaver mounts Sarg but the rifle you have post looks very good and it did the job as you say. must have been a dragunov muzzle break and together with the very pc bended bolt it have some elegance.
got work and miles away from the bubba victims.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (02/01/12 02:19 AM)


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