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lancaster
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The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history
      #150441 - 13/01/10 01:29 AM

Post this here under classic rifle's because I feel an action 119 years old don’t fit in the new rifle’s section.

you may remember that christmas was coming again



and because unusual things will happen in this time of the year
I have got a Mosin sporting rifle kit from finland one day before christmas. It started in the mosin forum over one year ago in a discussion about the 9,3x53R Finish. Some times later Bokmal send me a message that he have seen a 9,3 barrel - if I allways have an interest for such an rifle? This barrel was for an arisaka action but in the end I have got a mosin barrel, a system, a piece of walnut, an old Zeiss Ziel Vier and a Mannlicher Schoenauer claw mount, also the small parts for a very, very pc sporting rifle.
And it will end someday in the proof house in Suhl, hopefully without blowing the rifle in pieces.









You know that one rifle leads to another rifle. When I've got a M 88 in 9x57 was needing also a swedish sporter in 9,3x57 and having this I was knowing that a finish 9,3 is a must have. While waiting for the parts was browsing through the net for informations about the cartridge and it will be shame now when it will be lost.
The finish Mosin conversation was most times a simple hunting rifle made from an old war horse to hunting moose for meat one time in the year like this here.





There are existing also some decent real Mosin sporter but the style and the taste of the sixties was becoming something uncertain. It was the time when Monte Carlo stocks and plastic fake ivory caps coming in vogue. not that I mean such finish sporters but it wasnt the same anymore like it was before WW 2.







My destination is a sporting rifle in the clear and classic lines of the Husqvarna mauser sporter.
when I start this project was looking for all informations about and around the 9,3x53R.

First thing to note is that there are in fact four different 9,3x53 cartridges. The first was a 9,3x53 rimless, called Model 25. this is a 7,5x55 Swiss necked up for a .366 bullet. The designation M 25 indicate 1925 as the time of development.



As a Model (19)26 exist the 9,3x53R Swiss, this is the rimmed version for single shot’s. I don’t have seen rifles for this rounds till now. What I have heard is that the rimles round was chambered in rebored swiss military rifles without any other “sporterisation”. The rimmed cartridge was intendet for the popular martini falling block action. The swiss arsenal Altdorf was maybe the only manufaturer for both rounds. The production of this cartridges seems to stop in the sixsty’s



The 9,3x53R Swiss will be sometimes mixed up with the

9,3x53R Finish

What norma is saying about his 9,3x57 is also true for the 9,3x53R Finish:

“Interestingly, no one seems to be able to determine exactly when or by whom the 9.3x57 chambering was designed”

What we know is that it started after WW 2 in a time when the finish had a lot of problems caused from the big neighbour in the east. There was a law forbidding the use of military rifles for hunting after WW 2 what caused the 8,2x53R Mosin and probably also our 9,3x53R. Similar stupidity after WW 1 created the 8x60 Mauser in germany. Its my opinion that the finish copy the Swedish idea of the 9,3x57,well proofed in Husqvarna Mauser sporter and created a Moose cartridge for cheap conversions of old military rifles. Sako in Finland was and is the only manufacturer of this cartridge and sold also new brass. A box of 20 unfired cases is sold for 16,50 euro here and when I make my order had have to wait because it was sold out. It must be more than one rifle around here in the evil empire. There are good reasons to belief that the first drawing of our cartridge was made from a Sako employee.





right 9(,3)x53R russian version/LVE left 9,3x53R Finish/Sako





Old sako ammo box


And new ammo box

Like with the 9,3x53(R) Swiss only the neck of the 7,62x54R Mosin was open for .366 diameter bullets. The rest of the case was not change and so a rebored and reriffled military Mosin barrel needs only a neck reamer.




You see in this Kemira list that the 9,3x53R runs a little bit higher than the 9,3x57 Mauser because the mosin can stand a little bit more pressure than a Swedish M 96 action.
This kemira load is more or less identical with the sako factory load. we can assume it is in fact the sako factory load:





SAKO 9,3x53R factory load:

Velocity
Bullet Weigth V0 V100 V200 V300

9,3x53R Gamehead RN 16,6 gramm 710 600 500 420

Energy
0m 100m 200m 300m

4083 2912 2027 1426

Balistic
50m 100m 150m 200m 250m 300m

3,1cm 5,0 cm 0 cm -13,3 cm -37,5 cm -72,4 cm

the 9,3 Finnish was ever loaded with one bullet weigth in all the years. In my opinion is the 16,6 gramm bullet ideal for this 9,3mm cartridges like the 16 gramm was the best for the 9mm and the 17,2 gramm was the best for the ligth 9,5mm cartridges.
Sako was loading also the 9,3x57 Mauser once with this bullet. Norma have maybe good reasons for the “ ligth” 230 grains and the heavy 285 grains load in the 9,3x57. the first is fine for roe deer and the second is for moose but there is something like a ideal bullet weigth for every cartridge. The 285 grains bullet is the rigth one in the 9,3x62, in the 9,3x57 and 9,3x53R it’s the 16,6 gramm bullet.


Old copper crusher method give a max. pressure of 3000 bar for the 9,3x53R
In practise there will be no difference between the two 9,3mm cartridges. Its similar like between a 9mm Mannlicher Schoenauer and 9mm Mauser or a 9,5mm Mannlicher Schoenauer and 375 NE 2,5”
An old german cartridge manual from 1973 shows how unknown the cartridge outside of finland was in this day’s.


The Sako load is called 9,3x53r Swiss here but on the other side CotW don’t know it at all.
For comparison here is the old Sako 9,3x57 load, same bullet, similar ballistic




The last cartridge in the row is the 9x53R

This is the russian designation but the cartridge is so close to the finish cartridge that I call it a “copy”.
Was surprise to see that a wikipedia article exist for the 9x53R:
The 9x53R rifle cartridge was designed as a hunting cartridge,it is a 7.62x54mmR necked up to accommodate a larger bullet. The Russian version was designed from a mister M.N. Blum in 1957 and the cartridge was produced from 1962–1977, again from early1990s-present.
This cartridge was not to produced for many years, but large volumes in private stock reach till the “Novosibirsk ammunition factory” make it possible also, until now, to meet the demand for these cartridges.
The Soviet hunting cartridge 9x53R was developed for hunting in the extreme north regions in the USSR.
It is calculated on large animals: sea seals, walrus, bear, moose. this cartridge should not be confused with 9.3x53R Finnish which has similar dimensions, but a sightly larger bullet: 9,30mm(366) against 9,27mm(.365), a 71.45mm overall cartridge length[7] against 67,8mm and, more important, higher maximum pressure – 3400 bar against 2900 bar for the russian version.
As a result shooting the finish cartridge is only safe in mosin action rifles.
The cartridge 9,3x53R Sako is ten times more expensive than 9x53R ammunition in Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x53R

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%D1%8553_%D0%BC%D0%BC

I don’t know why the russians call it 9x53R, also don’t know why they choose the very unusual .365 diameter. Maybe the same reason why the 9 mm Makarov pistol round have a .364 diameter bullet.
The rusian cartridge can shoot in every finish rifle. The finish round is also safe in russian made mosin rifles but make problems in russian made semi auto sporting rifles because of the higher pressure. To use it in russian single or double rifles is a question for a competent gunsmith and in a CIP member country also for the proof house.
the LVE plant from Novosibirsk was and is making the 9x53(9,3x53R Russian). some day someone will come in here with one of this Russian double rifles and wonder why it will not regulate with sako cartridges. If its true what we have learning about the regulation of classic double rifles handloads with a 15 gramm spitzer soft point at 647 m/sec will do it.
There is no doubt that such russian doubles are made for the LVE load.
This is the the LVE ballistic for the 9x53R round with the common copper washed steel case:



Hunting cartridge 9x53R SP, V25 av640-655 m/sec, 240.1(2450kgf/cm2) - 254.8 (2600kgf/cm2), At distance100 8cm max. , Bullet mass14.9-15.1 , Cartridge mass26.8-29.04g, Jacket material – copper.Case material – bimetal

A russian made brass case was not found till now, difference between cartridges made before 1977 and after 1990 is that the old rounds have a “188” code headstamp and the new rounds have the “LVE” headstamp.





There are new rebored mosin rifles in russia now available for the 9x53R and they also use the sako load sometimes. the original military stock is maybe not a bad decision under the very hard conditions in the russian norther territory.






if someone ever would export this from russia he will find enough gun nuts who need it.

Baikal is also making new rifles for the 9,3x53R but I havn’t heard that it’s available outside of russia. The DR is one of the futuristic O/U but the single shot stalking rifle can be used for a nice classic rework in my opinion .





Russian Cossacks hunting the Caspian tiger on the Iranian cost of the Caspian sea with mosin rifles,1912. I wonder if the horn player on the pic was blowing “attack” when the tiger was coming in sigth of the group.
The mosin action is a proofed dangerous game rifle!






ok, work have allready start’s - my gunmaker was becoming ill about the christmas day’s. I use the time to begin polishing the action. Most work was spend for sporterizing the trigger and trigger guard with the file.






the Mauser style safety turns to the “wrong” side


fire


safe

The bolt will get a colour case hardening.some screws I have for the project got a fire blueing
Before:

and then:


I hope to update this thread from time to time

Edited by CptCurl (14/01/10 12:05 AM)


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Carpetsahib
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150454 - 13/01/10 02:42 AM

Interesting project. I'm looking forward to seeing your progress. By the way, where did you find the Mauser type safety for the Mosin?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #150456 - 13/01/10 02:52 AM

Very interesting project. Yes please keep any updates coming.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #150473 - 13/01/10 06:07 AM

thank you
the mauser style wing safety was a finish modification for cavalry carbines. it is not very common and was the most expensive part of the lot. bokmal was knowing this and find it on a finish gun show, again thank you bokmal for your help

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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tinker
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150474 - 13/01/10 06:29 AM

YES YES YES!!



Can't wait to see more as this project.

Have fun with it Lancaster!





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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simonsaorsa
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: tinker]
      #150478 - 13/01/10 06:47 AM

Fascinating project and great to learn so much about the 9.3X53R, which I had never heard of before.

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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: simonsaorsa]
      #150482 - 13/01/10 07:29 AM

Hi Lancaster, I'm happy to see that your project is progressing!

Just a small addition to the facts above; the 9,3x53R was developed at Sako in 1944. Lapua also offered a factory load for several years but discontinued it in the mid 1990ies.

--------------------
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Sarg
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150486 - 13/01/10 08:57 AM

What a great post !
Too true , once you start things can get out of hand , I had one Lee Speed go through my hands , now have 10, BSA , Parker Hale , Lee Speed's , rifles & action waiting to be cleaned up or worked on !

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Sarg]
      #150517 - 13/01/10 02:49 PM

I wish I knew how to say "Excellent Post!!!" in Suomen!

Very interesting.

There used to be a Colorado doctor AKA Kwahe on the Swede forum that had a M-N rebored to 9,3x53R.

Alas, all of his load data was lost when the site crashed.

I used to have a collection of M-N's years ago. VERY interesting rifle, especially the 28-30 which was my favorite.

Lancaster, a two-pin 28-30 or 39 trigger will help you a lot in getting a good trigger break. I learned over the years how to work a stock Russian M-N trigger to a good, crisp, light release, but using a Finn improved 28-30/39 trigger jumpstarts the effort quite a bit.

PLEASE keep posting on this project.

Ex-President of SAKO Henry Paasikivii sent me a dummy 9,3x53R round back in the mid-80's...I wish I'd built a rifle using a 28-20 or 39 as a base.

Keep us informed!

A Baikal in 9,3x53R????????

Oh, boy, I'd buy that one in a New York minute...

And the Russky's used to build the Medved semiauto rifle in 9x53R.

That must be quite a find, the Soviet ballistic/mechanical twin of today's Remington 750 in .35 Whelen, except the Russian version probably fuinctioned well!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #150552 - 13/01/10 09:34 PM

bringing such a work into the public will set you under pressure to be succesful!
Oh yes , the russian semi auto sporting rifle is the medved. had heard it that rifle and ammunition is exported to bulgaria but not more about it. the russian cartridge is very hard to find as a collector round here. it will be never exportetd in shooting quatity's in the evil empire here because the gun law only allow CIP proofed ammuntion, exept collector catridges.
even collector's where I buy some rare rounds asking me if I have it. some reloading points were be spoken in the M 95 moose killer post. the die set will be come from CH4D again, I have now 100 new brass cases and 60 Sako factory rounds. brass can be easy resized from 7,62x54r brass if you have it. the only brass case I found in my stuff was a russian sniper case with "166" headstamp -- LVE military load. resizing with the CH4D die is like making 9x57 from 8x57 brass.
the masterplan is to stay with the Kemira/ Vithavouri load. only problem is that nobody exported the 16,6gramm Sako softpoint bullet, maybe bokmal can again make a packet for me this year. the one rifle/ one load concept isn't so bad at all. for double rifle's it worked some years with satisfaction.
Wim Degol in belgium makes great bonded core bullets on demand, any size and weight, equally to woodleigh's in quality. will be a good idea to order the 16,6 gramm bullet also from him.
for bokmal information about the year 1944, the so called "peace" with the soviet union was made on the 19.9.44. iirc the now more or less obsolete but very interesting 7x33 was also develop in 1944. it seems to be that there some guy's in he finish ammunition industry were very quick to locking for a new peace time production.
did you have a pic of a 7x33 rifle, bokmal? I never see it before, believing it was sometimes THE cartridge for hunting wood grouse and black groose in Finland

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (13/01/10 09:38 PM)


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fuhrmann
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150562 - 13/01/10 10:53 PM

Quote:

.....
the masterplan is to stay with the Kemira/ Vithavouri load. only problem is that nobody exported the 16,6gramm Sako softpoint bullet, maybe bokmal can again make a packet for me this year. the one rifle/ one load concept isn't so bad at all. for double rifle's it worked some years with satisfaction.
.....




Hi Lancaster,

a fine project, and very interesting reading!
Do not ignore the 16.5 gram GECO bullet!

Greetings,
Fuhrmann


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: fuhrmann]
      #150580 - 14/01/10 12:59 AM


SAKO L46 in 7x33

And here is the cartride:


I have to say that the Mosin above without maganine is mine. In fact, it still have an ordinary magazine but in some day i'll make it looks a like in picture.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Edited by CptCurl (16/01/10 12:18 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #150583 - 14/01/10 01:15 AM

Lancaster;

The old 28-30 and 39 triggers used to be had here for a few dollars. I should have bought a hundred of them...

They make improving the letoff very easy, tho it can be done with a normal factory M-N trigger with some difficulty. But it can be done. Are the 39 triggers available there in Finland as spare parts?

Please keep this project alive here on NE.

Also, as I understand it, the front of the magazine must be opened up a little to allow smooth feeding of the 9,3 round?

I think u are right about the use of similar boring for Makarov and "9x54R/9x53R". Why? Who knows, but maybe barrel drilling equipment was available for such. The Russians have made some work with 9,3 caliber military loads for sniper purposes also, but I think the more modern 9,3x64 loadings were common .366.

Anyway, some enterprising American should resurrect the 9,3x53R here. We are AWASH with millions {probably} of worn out M-N's!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #150585 - 14/01/10 01:19 AM

did you reload for your rifle igorrock? is this picture from gunboards showing the rifle without magazin or did you have a special made magazin? it would be fine to see pics how it works. I have posted here pics of an austrian mannlicher M 95 sporter with such a unique handmade magazin being flush with the stock.
isnt the 7x33 a rimless botleneck cartridge?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150588 - 14/01/10 01:27 AM

Here is the M 95 sporter I was talking about




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (16/01/10 12:18 AM)


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Carpetsahib
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #150589 - 14/01/10 01:34 AM

Quote:


SAKO L46 in 7x33

And here is the cartride:


I have to say that the Mosin above without maganine is mine. In fact, it still have an ordinary magazine but in some day i'll make it looks a like in picture.


If you are referring to the Mosin in Lancaster's post that has a flush magazine, please post additional pictures! Also, please post pictures of the interesting scope mount on that rifle.

Edited by CptCurl (16/01/10 12:20 AM)


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Carpetsahib
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150590 - 14/01/10 01:42 AM

Quote:

thank you
the mauser style wing safety was a finish modification for cavalry carbines. it is not very common and was the most expensive part of the lot. bokmal was knowing this and find it on a finish gun show, again thank you bokmal for your help


Very interesting. If I understand the method of operation, the front of the safety has a lug that bears on the back of the bolt body. As the safety is turned over from the safe to the fire position, the lug is moved out of position and the rifle is ready to fire. Do you have to modify the bolt body to provide clearance? Additional pictures would be most welcome.

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Carpetsahib
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150622 - 14/01/10 07:11 AM


Lancaster,

More information on this rifle, please.....Such as, details on the magazine modification, scope mount, caliber, etc. This is a great looking rifle, by the way!


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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #150640 - 14/01/10 01:26 PM

Yes, more details please. Very nice rifle.

The M-N is a sleeper.

Really impressive accuracy potential, too.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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mehulkamdar
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150692 - 15/01/10 06:26 AM

Lancaster,

I worked in Russia a long time ago and not many Medved rifles were built even back then. I knew of one which was with a Duma member whom I met in 94, but have seen no other. I think the Medveds must have died out when the Russians switched to the 9.3x64 round for their Dragunov based hunting rifles from the mid 1990s onwards. I have heard about some Medved rifles in German collections but have not heard from any actual owner - if any are there, they must have been gifts to senior Communist Party members in east Germany in the Cold War years and they must have got sold since to whoever owns them now. It would be interesting to see what turns up in Bulgaria - it was a popular spot for senior Soviet officials to hunt bear in and some would have found their way there as you point out.

Lovely project and please keep the pictures and information coming. Maybe this could become an article for our E-zine?



Good hunting!

--------------------
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Mehul Kamdar


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150697 - 15/01/10 08:11 AM

Quote:

.only problem is that nobody exported the 16,6gramm Sako softpoint bullet, maybe bokmal can again make a packet for me this year.



How many do you want?

My friend Igorrock must have slipped on the keyboard; the bottlenecked 7x33 Sako looks like this (next to a .222 and a 7,62x39):



The history behind the 7x33 is that Sako experimented with what could be made with 9mm case machinery and brass stock. The 7x33 was the result. It was introduced with the L46 rifle (in Igorrocks pic) at a Fair in Stockholm in 1945. This was the only rifle ever factory chambered for this cartridge.

Edited by CptCurl (16/01/10 12:21 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #150703 - 15/01/10 10:14 AM

You are right, Bokmal. My picture of 7x33 is uncorrect. I was little busy when setting that picture.

The hidden magazine for Mosin is still an idea in my head but sooner or later it will come to concrete form.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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Grenadier
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150705 - 15/01/10 10:44 AM

Several years ago I handled one that was superbly executed. It had nice checkering, express sights, and was finished as you would expect a fine rifle to be finished. Your project could get interesting. Here is a picture of a sporter as food for thought.

Mosin Sporter

~

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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Grenadier]
      #150717 - 15/01/10 12:40 PM

Thanks Bokmal...

That 7x33 wasn't the one I knew, but wasn't sure enough to mention it.


As for the sporter, Grenadier, yes, another nice one.

I have hunted with the M-N. I shot a bear with one, but it was a 39 in military condition. A bear to lug around that rifle was!! They need a bit of trimming!

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #150761 - 15/01/10 09:14 PM

this also a unusual rifle worthy to note, the stock is not bad at all.


the little 7x33 is an interesting little plinking round, it must have his own advantage for the hunting situation it was intended. the 7mm bullet is maybe a big headache if you try to reload. I dont know if its in production, did you know it? is the little sako rifle a single shot or have it a magazin?
Igorrock,for another mosin magazin: C.G.Haenel have made M 88 sporting rifle's with a mauser zick-zack magazin, maybe this can also be done with a mosin. the mannlicher M 95 I post was noted to a have 3 shot magazin. doubtless someone has cut the original magazin.
My idea was to make a perfect finish hunting rifle. its all in the part's you have only make it visible.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (16/01/10 12:21 AM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150764 - 15/01/10 10:41 PM

Quote:

the little 7x33 is an interesting little plinking round, it must have his own advantage for the hunting situation it was intended.



It's main use was the bigger forest birds, Capercaillie and the Black Forest Grouse. I'm told that it still has a devout following as a Roe Deer cartridge in Norway and Sweden.

Quote:

the 7mm bullet is maybe a big headache if you try to reload. I dont know if its in production, did you know it?



It has been discontinued, NOS Sako ammo costs up to 2€/cartridge in the second hand market, if you can find them...

Quote:

is the little sako rifle a single shot or have it a magazin?



It has a detachable magazine. Around 6 000 L46 rifles were made; in 7x33, .222, .218 Bee and 25-20.

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #150771 - 16/01/10 12:09 AM

the 22 hornet is a serious hunting cartridge on roe deer if legal. and I dont forget the old german 6,5x27R, also developt as a small game cartridge for the different wood grouse.
the 6,5x27R was shooting a 5,3 gramm softpoint bullet at 480 m/sec and was used on roe deer also.
brass for the 7x33 can maybe made from the a little bit undersized 222 rem. such kind of reloading cartridges(8x63 swedisch from 30 06 brass) works not bad if you center the cartridge in the chamber with tape. I dont know if 5,45x39 brass is now in production, believe PRVI has anounce it once.
donelly wrote that the round use a 120 grain .284 bullet and similar stuff is available from 100 -120 grains. a nice little plinking cartridge
we have leaving the the 9,3x53R topic but my gunmaker wont be able before february to start

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (16/01/10 12:13 AM)


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Grenadier
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150789 - 16/01/10 04:16 AM

Thought this might help in your visualization. It is from a 1939 catalog. Note the dimensions of the stock in the upper left.



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Edited by CptCurl (17/01/10 01:06 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Grenadier]
      #150792 - 16/01/10 04:33 AM

thank you grenadier, this is indeed a good help

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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150822 - 16/01/10 09:57 AM

Here is some more pictures of my Mosin in "reality". I hope you can see the sidemount better. The trigger is made by TIMNEY for SAKO L461R and has a safety. My gunsmith converted Mosin to accept it.




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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Edited by CptCurl (17/01/10 01:06 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #150871 - 17/01/10 02:39 AM

I'm ignorant of the Mosin Nagant action, is it a form of action similar to a Mannlicher?

Front locking?


Beautiful rifle Igorrock.

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John aka NitroX

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Edited by NitroX (17/01/10 02:40 AM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: NitroX]
      #150878 - 17/01/10 03:13 AM

Quote:

I'm ignorant of the Mosin Nagant action, is it a form of action similar to a Mannlicher?

Front locking?




Somewhat, and yes.



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Edited by CptCurl (17/01/10 03:58 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: NitroX]
      #150882 - 17/01/10 03:32 AM

Quote:

I'm ignorant of the Mosin Nagant action, is it a form of action similar to a Mannlicher?

Front locking?


Beautiful rifle Igorrock.




Actually, you need to look at both the Lebel and the Mauser 71 and you will find features similar to the M-N. Remember, the Russian/Belgian engineering combination was fully cognizant of the contemporary features of other actions.

Front locking, detachable bolt head. Single-stack magazine with a rim unlocking device that prevents rim-over-rim rams. It is a 100% reliable action. Clubby, with a poor trigger design that requires much attention, but a very reliable and VERY accurate rifle system. See the Finn M85 updates in Palokangas' amazing tome on Finnish arms.

My personal experience with the M-N was with various Russian and Finnish remodles, in the field on varmints and a bear, under harsh weather conditions. This is an action that deserves far better than it gets, normally...we have some fellows here that are giving it its due!!!

As for the borrowing of other designs to make a good'un, another project is to open up an AK; see the clear "thieving" of Remington Model 8 and Garand designs. Kalashnikov "created" nothing. His genius was in combining the features of others into mechanical perfection.

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #150891 - 17/01/10 04:21 AM

The Mosin is not a mannlicher and I will try to show it first on the bolt . I am sorry for having not a M 86 –M 95 in the house because they repräsent the true mannlicher concept of a straight-pull action. Being a turnbolt action the M 91 inventor’s were knowing of course the french M 86 and the german M88 rifle.

First pic is showing the line from german M88 to swedisch Mauser M96 to M 98(wich we all love)


Second pic is showing the M66 Chassepot bolt, M86 Lebel Bolt, M91 Mosin bolt
The M 74 Gras bolt, standing between the M 66 and M 86 in any aspect is missing.


This kinds of bolts all have a separate head. This idea is coming to an end in the Mosin where the bolt is in my opinion only the carrier who transport the bolt head. This may sound a little bit extremely but it is the reason ,in my eye’s, the rifle is working in –50°C.


In no way we can say that the Mosin is having a Mannlicher Bolt. The straight-pull action from Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher will come back again in gun history 50 years later when we going into the field of semi and full auto rifle’s. the german M 88 also have a separate bolt head but this was the most criticized part of the whole rifle. The Mauser line never have it again and the Mannlicher M93/95, developt from the M 88 also don’t have it anymore.

The Mosin is also not a Mannlicher because it did not have a Mannlicher Magazin.
Mannlicher was not the first to use a box magazin(it was Lee and Russel) but was the first to be sucessful. The Carcano, the french Berthier, the german M 88 use the mannlicher magazin with packet clip loader. The Mosin have a very, very clever box magazin with stripper clips. A spring, a piece of steal (also eject the case) and a little screw handel and control the feed of the rimmed cartridge absoluty brilliant.








--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/01/10 05:05 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150892 - 17/01/10 04:27 AM

Lanc is right and I thought my post made that clear. His post is better, documenting the differences more in depth.

The Russian Mosin designed the bolt, the Belgian Nagant the magazine.

Note the similarities with the Lebel. Remember, too, the French and the Russians maintained close relationships doring the late 1800's.

lanc's last pic shows the cartridge interuptor perfectly.

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Grenadier
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #150906 - 17/01/10 05:20 AM

Great info. Very interesting.

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Sarg
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Grenadier]
      #150931 - 17/01/10 09:43 AM

Great info & posts from our European members , thanks to all posters !

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FrankS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Sarg]
      #150954 - 17/01/10 06:28 PM

I find that this is some very interesting stuff. Shouldn't see any reason why one would not get similar ballistics as to the 9.3x57mauser cartridge. Would be a natural for cast bullets. Especially with the long neck. Thanks for posting. Frank

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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #150961 - 17/01/10 09:00 PM

Thanks Lancaster! I learnt a lot about the heritage our Mosins build on! This is why I love forums like this

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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #150973 - 18/01/10 01:18 AM

FrankS; yes, the 9,3x57 and 9,3x53R are pretty much ballistic twins. Some loads interchange.

Also, M-N chargers are very similar to Lee-Enfield chargers.

Igorrock, do you have any pictures of the modifications done to you action to take the Timney trigger?

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150980 - 18/01/10 02:44 AM

The 9.3x53R Swiss was not limited to Martini actions. Here are two photos of a Schmidt&Habermann, Suhl, o/u combination gun with the rifle barrel so chambered. Proof date: June 1928. Boxlock, double underbolting, Kersten top fasteners.





Edited by CptCurl to display photos.

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Edited by CptCurl (18/01/10 08:13 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #150981 - 18/01/10 03:02 AM

Again, let it be known the differences between the various 9,3 rim cartridges.

lancaster: I forget...what country are you in?

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #150998 - 18/01/10 06:22 AM

the true and only empire of evil

after some years in the biggest gun show ever, the net, I am not surprise to see this Bockbüchsflinte and also not surprise it was a german gun, better saying a Suhl made gun for the swiss market. but its equal rare to the Suhl made cap gun in 10,3x60R I seeing once.

this post have now 412 view with 41 replies, the older win 95 post have 1930views/55 replies. its remarkable how much interest the 9,3x53R generate. the gun industry developt a new series of super short magnum blabla rounds every year. importing the baikal singel shot rifle and the new made 9,3x53R Mosins from Russia seem's me a much better idea.
two years ago my knowledge about the mosin was what's today about the lee enfield.
close to zero!
it all come's with the cartridge that nobody realy know's but this situation is now change. and why not build a rifle? we all have seen this before http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/custom_rifles/classic_mannlicher.html
for me it was a great inspiration: yes, we living in the plastic/stainless age but dont care about this

the 9,3x74R is the rimmed version of the 9,3x62 - the 9,3x53R is the rimmed version of the 9,3x57

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (18/01/10 07:21 PM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #151001 - 18/01/10 07:59 AM

Sorry my poor fotografer skills but I hope these helps.





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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Edited by CptCurl (18/01/10 08:17 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #151017 - 18/01/10 10:58 AM

Igorrock; thanks very much. Very interesting!!

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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #151092 - 19/01/10 05:51 AM

Someone has made quite fine Mosin sporster in somewhere.:)













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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Edited by CptCurl (19/01/10 06:04 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #151098 - 19/01/10 06:49 AM

where did you find this pics? its maybe 17 years ago that a local gun shop here had have a similar sporter in 7,62x54R, heavy engraved with oak leaves all over the action and scope, also the stock. scope mount was again a MS claw mount and it was feed from the original mosin magazin. the rifle was just perfect but I dont had enough interest and not realy care about this. dont know who made this work and where the rifle gone. this sporter here have a additional safety on the pistol grib and a modified magazin hiding in the stock. this make the shape of the stock not completly perfect.
such single row magazin's looking very good on M88 and Mannlicher sporting rifle's. in my opinion its not realy nessesary to change the mosin magazin.

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Paatti
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #151102 - 19/01/10 07:29 AM

Quote:

I wish I knew how to say "Excellent Post!!!" in Suomen!




Erinomainen postaus is proper way to say it in Suomeksi (not Suomen)

Very nice project indeed. Keep up the good work.


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #151104 - 19/01/10 07:36 AM

Quote:

such single row magazin's looking very good on M88 and Mannlicher sporting rifle's. in my opinion its not realy nessesary to change the mosin magazin.




How about this ?

http://www.cabelas.com/gun-inventory---scarborough---fine-rifle---1009385-haenel-sca.shtml

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kuduae
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #151113 - 19/01/10 08:28 AM

Igorrock: The rifle offered by Cabela is not a converted M88 Sporter, but a Haenel Modell 1900, about as much related to an 88 as the Mannlicher-Schoenauer is. The M1900s are seldom seen nowadays and are mistaken for custom jobs on 88 military actions!

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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #151115 - 19/01/10 08:48 AM

Yes I know that. I have seen somewhere in net very good pictures where HAENEL M1900's magazine has dismounted.
I just send link to that picture for idea m88 with hidden magazine.

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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #152601 - 02/02/10 06:35 PM

Quote:

I hope to update this thread from time to time



Come on, Lancaster! We are all eagerly waiting for more!

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #152622 - 03/02/10 01:51 AM

I am very sorry bokmal, my gunmaker, who must made some works on the rifle(the gunlaw, you know?) was becoming ill on new years day and isnt on his feets till now.


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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #154744 - 25/02/10 06:32 AM

Have now make the last thing before the gunmaker can start his work. The barrel was coming with the wrong receiver from finnland. It was clear for me that a classic mosin sporter must have a hexagonal receiver. The russian’s have change produduction from hex to round in 1935/36 and the1938 dated round receiver with 3 different damage’s have to go.
The first one trying to unscrew the receiver was the gunmaker who was making the import for me. Because he wasn’t successful I was also trying this at home, nothing!
Last week I visit another gunmaker in my area and we try this with 3 man’s in his shop. The receiver doesn’t turn one milimeter. The gunmaker is giving such problems to a mechanic where the barrel can be fixed in a very big lathe. He was told me that this guy once unsrew a mauser receiver from the barrel that was fixed with an invisible welding point.
And in this way the old receiver was unsrewed in the end.

You see the traces from the three-jaw chuck on the barrel, the receiver was heatet, hammered und turn with brutal force


russian military stuff isn’t known for his well finish surface, need some hour’s to polish the barrel




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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (01/03/10 11:16 PM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #154748 - 25/02/10 06:58 AM

Good that it finally came loose, this was becoming embarrasing... I never realized the barrel was that firmly mated to the receiver.

But, on with the show. We can now hope for more updates, nicht wahr?

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #154750 - 25/02/10 07:14 AM

sorry bokmal, no updates before april I fear, have to wait that the old master will be becoming healthy again. did I understand it rigth that you were figthing with this beast in finnland before and lost?
is it common for mosin barrels to being srew so strong?
have talk with the proof house in Suhl about this today. my plan was to send the barreled action first to the proof and start then with the stock when its back. the metallwork is than complete but in the white and I can finish the stock/action without problems.
but the proof house need some kind of stock to fix the rifle when fire. so I will make a rough " proof stock" just for this moment.

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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #154752 - 25/02/10 07:28 AM

Ok, we'll have to wait. Sigh...

Nope, I never tampered with the barrel and receiver when I had them here. The 9,3 barrel was obviously mated to the receiver sometimes post war in Finland (as the receiver is war booty). Why it would have been so 'permanently fixed' by some gunsmith I have no idea.

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Sarg
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #154754 - 25/02/10 07:43 AM

What a timely post , I just yesterday was taking the barrel off a VZ33 8X57 & almost screwed the action into , a hard fight all the way , well it turned out it had been drilled & tapped at some time INTO the barrel from the front ring & then some Wally had welded it up to cover the screw holes , as the rifle is in full military trim I never thought of that until after i saw the damged treads !

Thank you guys for another great tread !

Cheers

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No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Sarg]
      #154793 - 25/02/10 06:23 PM

can you use the parts or is it all for scrap box now?

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Sarg
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #154795 - 25/02/10 06:39 PM

I dont twist the action , just pushed the screws up through the welds & damaged the barrel threads a bit , I used a thread chasing file to repair barrel treads & will tig up holes & reblue !

Just being lazy , should have taken it out of the barrel vise & checked why it was so tight !

Its a pain to get into the vise & bolt on the action wrench .

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Sarg]
      #157448 - 25/03/10 08:16 PM

I talked with the proof house in Suhl if they need a stock for proofing a rifle and yes they need something like that for the the two shoots to made.
because my plan is to let the gunmaker screw the barrel into the action, control headspace, maybe solder the sigth's on the barrel and than make the proof before more work is involved I made a cheap "proof" stock. it was in all a good idea because the mosin action is a little bit tricky and I had the chance to make some small mistake's. if the action is in the stock you can see much better where wood can be left next time.
so mill the walnut stock now was maybe not fun but I was knowing that its the right way.




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (28/03/10 01:30 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #169044 - 06/10/10 06:06 AM

I have got an 9,3x53R Sako box from Finland which was a big surprise. Bokmal found it for me in the shop of an old gunmaker.
Seems to be like any other Sako box but the cartridges have the headstamp "Lapua 9,3x53R". I can only assume that Sako and Lapua had have very close relation's in this time and Lapua was making brass for Sako because of some reason's. It don't look like the cartridge's were not original in this box. Only real difference to Sako headstamp cartridge's is a heavy crimp and annealed brass.





again the ballistic twins 9,3x53R and 9,3x57 side by side
same powder load, bullet and velocity

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (07/10/10 10:42 AM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #169047 - 06/10/10 06:47 AM

Quote:

I have got an 9,3x53R Sako box from Finland which was a big surprise. Bokmal found it for me in the shop of an old gunmaker.



According to my wife I'm like a happy Truffles Pig when I get to burrow through old ammo boxes, odd stampings on receivers and other wonderful useless data...
Happy you like it!

--------------------
Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad...


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FrankS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #169360 - 11/10/10 04:59 PM

Lancaster, once again a very impressive post about the 9.3x57R. The question remains, will you have to open up the front part of the moisin magazine to accomodate the larger bullet. and if so please post the how-to's as to how its done. There was an article in the gun digest some years back that described some of the different cartridges that were developed using the 7.62x54R case as the basis.
Your rifle would make a good piggy rifle here in the south. Lotta piggy's running around causing a lot of damage. Thanks again, Frank And keep the updated comeing. Frank


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #169369 - 11/10/10 06:13 PM

The M-N mag does need to have it's front opened up to accomodate the 9.3 mm bullets. I don't have a how-to for how this should be done, but here is the end result as done by my local gunsmith.





Edited by CptCurl (11/10/10 10:23 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #169386 - 12/10/10 06:18 AM

it was my impression that a little work with a file will be enough to make the 9,3x53R working into the mag of my action.
the bullet itself fit's but the case neck needs more space. how it end's with this project is only a question of time and patience.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #169391 - 12/10/10 01:31 PM

lancaster;

I can't speak for the filing, but I know of some that are hammered to fit.

I'm not sure if a mandrel of some kind is used?

This is really quite a wonderful project. I've long wanted a 9,3x53R but will likely have to enjoy the concept vicariously thru yours. I do have the duplicator of ballistics in the 9,3x57 with which I am, so far this year unsucessfully, chasing elk.

Keep posting.

I can't wait to see the whole thing; lock, stock and barrel.

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #169445 - 13/10/10 04:59 AM

Good thread & project - lancaster, did you file the OCTAGONAL flats on the action, or find a sporter? I wasn't clear on that.
Hex is 6 sides with points on two opposing joints of flats whereas octagonal had 8 sides - flats all the way around - or interupted as on an action.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #169465 - 13/10/10 02:36 PM

this is the original form of a Mosin action and was changed to round receiver's in 1935/36 to make production cheaper. but I understand what you mean. this is a "look alike" octagonal receiver when it is in the stock. the invisible half is not worked this way so you will only have six side's around where 2 side's are not flat but rounded. so the common name for old receiver is "Hex".

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #174019 - 25/01/11 01:47 AM

My mosin project is not under a good star but patience is rewarded in the end. two days after the parts had arrived my old gunsmith got a heart attack and he is still bad.
He has not really been able to start working and I think about it to bring the parts to another gunmaker and hand over the work. Not real good style after all these years he has worked for me.

To keep the story alive I will show some pics that belong to this project. Last summer I visit an older gentleman here and asked him if he can make a Mannlicher Schönauer claw mount part for me. He had in the past often made such things for me because he has the machinery.
Coming into his living room to discuss the work with him finding trophies there lost long time ago as I believed. They belonged once to a German who had a farm in Togo before WW 1 and died in the 1950s.
. This man, a friend of my grandfather was known here under the nick name” ape hunter”.
A Phyton skin and the saw of a sawfish also survive the change of times.









My grandmother had have a big sea shell from this old farmer together with an cowry shell as a pair in the porcelain cupboard when I was a child. The African sea shell does not come to me but the cowry which is one of the things my great-grandfather was bringing back from the boxer rebellion in china in 1900.

Here with the ivory I have from him, maybe a cap for a rifle stock and gribs for a Walther TPH in the future.

So many things ended on the dump after the last war. My father is remembering another house here, the walls full with different African trophy’s and native arms.

Must be a priceless fun to load the peta guy’s to dinner having the chimp standing beside the table and make Norwegian steak’s with Chianti wine.





Anyone here having an idea what the chimpanzee will be worth today if its possible to get the CITES papers for it? The owner told me that the trophy is filled with old newspapers from before WW 1.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (13/02/11 11:40 PM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #174193 - 27/01/11 12:43 AM

Quote:

Seems to be like any other Sako box but the cartridges have the headstamp "Lapua 9,3x53R". I can only assume that Sako and Lapua had have very close relation's in this time and Lapua was making brass for Sako because of some reason's.



I've done some checking and Lapua did load ammo for Sako for a long time. Exactly when this ceased I do not (yet) know, but I have some Sako boxed 6,3x53R and 6,5x52R from the 1960'ies, all with Lapua stamped on the cases.

That Chimp reminds me of someone...??? ... could be some of the rap artists my godson listens to... they also seem to have a fondness for grabbing their balls in public...

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #174204 - 27/01/11 04:06 AM

"That Chimp reminds me of someone...??? ... could be some of the rap artists my godson listens to... they also seem to have a fondness for grabbing their balls in public... "

this was a good one


if the matter once seriously considered it must be said that the ape holds his hand seemingly random before the balls. it all looks very natural and is really a very clever solution from the taxidermist. We must remember that in the year 1910 99% of all people never hear the dirty F word in public. And a husbands do not have the wife kissed in front of the children.
if the taxidermist do not want to give the ape a fig leaf in the hand to hold it before the balls he had to bring the hand in this position.

I will definitely have an eye on the ape, it is one of the things you no longer can buy for money.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (27/01/11 05:01 AM)


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FrankS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #174446 - 30/01/11 05:48 PM

Bokmal, thanks for the picture of how the moisin magazine was altered to take the 9.3 cartridge. Its very much appreciated. Thanks Frank

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FrankS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #174447 - 30/01/11 05:57 PM

lancaster, sorry to hear that your gunsmith had a heart attack. Here's wishing him a speedy recovery.
Somehow going through all the trials and tribulations will look like a bump in the road when you finally get to shoot your rifle. Interesting snake skin. I live in Louisiana and we do get some big snakes here. I have a shed out back where I keep the gardening tools,opened it up and a water moccasin must have went there to shed his skin. Good thing he wasn't there. They are poisinous and the nearest hospital is about 30 minutes away. That skin looks to have come from a rather large snake.
Keep the faith and hopefully one day soon we will all share with you your 9.3x53R moisin rifle. Regards, Frank


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #174468 - 31/01/11 03:41 AM

well, he is over seventy now but until he got this heart attack there was never a problem with him.
wish him the best.
it is very easy to hunt such a big phyton! only thing you need is a rigth feet and patience.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzR-L9WzEYI

being in contakt with cartridge collectors but till now I was not able to get only one of the russian cartridges.
this is my newest find in the www

the old LVE box, the cartridge is looking like a brass case or brass plated steel case???

the new LVE ammo


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (13/02/11 11:41 PM)


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7mmSAKO
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #175466 - 13/02/11 11:56 PM

Here is my Mosin sporter in caliber 6,3x52R (.25-35) made by arms workshop Aarre Viitanen.
.25-35 was quite common caliber in small game rifles (Mauser 96, Mosins, Tikka H-45 and Valmet combination guns) after war years in Finland.
I can't wait for the black grouse season...



Bolt is modified for smaller rim



Edited by CptCurl (14/02/11 12:02 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 7mmSAKO]
      #175478 - 14/02/11 04:51 AM

please show more pics from your mosin! I love such unusual caliber - rifle combinations.
have learned that this is a very typical postwar style for finish sporting rifles:

A german M 88 action with a barrel in 6,5x54 Kurz Mauser, maybe the last M 88 sporter ever made

a japanese Arisaka action with a 7x57 barrel

wonderful strange rifle's http://www.kerailyase.fi/Uutuudet.php

the Sako L 46 rifle in 7x33

http://www.ace-gun.com/product_details.php?p=1218

think this design looks equally good for hunting and target shooting

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (14/02/11 08:16 AM)


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rrrgcy
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #176883 - 10/03/11 04:35 AM

My recently completed Sporterized Mosin Nagant 91/30 "Express Safari" project, w 24" barrel recrowned, all reblackened, hand shaped/checkered walnut, rosewood tip and cap, and NECG sights.


Edited by CptCurl (17/03/11 09:04 PM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: rrrgcy]
      #176884 - 10/03/11 04:39 AM

That is a good looking sporter, rrrgcy! Original caliber ,or...?

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500grains
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #176888 - 10/03/11 06:15 AM

Now that is a Mosin that I could get used to.

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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 500grains]
      #176899 - 10/03/11 10:44 AM

Indeed! A beautiful rifle!!

Hard to believe it is related to this...



--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by CptCurl (17/03/11 09:05 PM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #176908 - 10/03/11 05:57 PM

@9,3x57. That's a beautiful stock on your Finnish M/39. Looks like your rifle is in original configuration? Just out of curiosity, what stamps are there on the barrel shank?

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #176910 - 10/03/11 09:07 PM

btw bokmal, dont you had an offer for a Sako L 46 with a "mannlicher" full stock?
dont you get it? would like to see pics from this model, must be a very nice toy.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #176911 - 10/03/11 09:21 PM

The owner, a (very) old forrester, has been elsewhere this winter. I hope to meet up with him later this spring to close the deal

He told me that he still has the original hunting diopter for it... can't wait!

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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #176913 - 10/03/11 10:51 PM

Bokmål;

I wish I could remember!

That picture was taken about 13 years ago and I sold my M/N collection not too long after this. It was a Valmet-built rifle w/ plum-colored, "B" barrel.

I had 38's, 91/30's, Finn 91, 28-30, 39 models. Great rifles.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #176914 - 10/03/11 11:05 PM

Ok, pity...

BTW, it's Bokmal (= bookworm), not Bokmål (Old style Norwegian language). But I'm impressed at your knowledge of Scandinavian terminology. Judging from your webnick you're no stranger to Scandinavian calibers either?

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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #176919 - 11/03/11 12:49 AM

Sorry Bokmal!

Yeah, 6.5x55 and 9.3x57 are my favorites.

BTW: With that 39, after this pic was taken, to protect the barrel from rust and use because it was a plum blue, I painted it light green. Used it for a number of years and then before selling it, stripped the paint with Zip-Strip chemical paint remover. Barrel was perfect underneath and the plan worked well!

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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rrrgcy
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #176934 - 11/03/11 03:10 AM

Thanks all, Parker Arms of PA did the metal and Old South Restoration of Dyersburg TN did the stock work. I'll need to calibrate the sights; now the fun begins lol. It's in original caliber.

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Story
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: rrrgcy]
      #182573 - 26/05/11 12:08 PM

A couple of guys working out how to convert the Mosin to feed .45-70
http://pharmory.blogspot.com/

--------------------
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: rrrgcy]
      #182663 - 28/05/11 01:05 AM

rrrgcy,

Did you do this yourself, or did you get the rifle built for you? Very nice work, indeed! Thanks for sharing pics and hope to see more hunting pics from your great state!

--------------------
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BillfromOregon
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #185325 - 07/07/11 12:35 AM

Lancaster: Any updates on your project?

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #188025 - 17/08/11 05:03 AM

updates ?
last time when I visit the master 3 weeks ago he had the confirmation from Triebel guntools that they send him a 9,3x53r Fin. headspace gage for checking the barrel action combination before proof.


here it is and I am a little bit sorry it dont came before







http://www.kerailyase.fi/Mosin-9%2C3x53R.php

take it if you can! for 120 euro its the bargain of the month

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (20/08/11 01:48 AM)


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FrankS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #188259 - 21/08/11 02:51 PM

Lancaster, Well it sure looks like the project that just about everyone here has been waiting for has come to fruition. I like it. Not too long a barrel nor too short. Are you going to use this rifle for hunting? Best wishes, Frank

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #188266 - 21/08/11 07:56 PM

oh, I am sorry when it was not clear!

the sporting rifle I post is offered in Finland now. please see the link to a this finnish dealer website.
if I had found such a rifle 2 years ago my own project have never started because I was happy with this.
I hope to bring my own mosin sporter back to finnland again for moose hunting in the future. very friendly country, nice people, like them very much.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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FrankS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #188738 - 28/08/11 03:07 PM

OK,so I'm guessing that your moisin is still "in the working stage" and not finished yet.
I think a lot of the membership will love to see the finished project, I know I would. Frank


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #189549 - 09/09/11 11:54 PM

Quote:

I think a lot of the membership will love to see the finished project, I know I would. Frank




your wish is my command and the adventure continues

I visit my gunmaker today and the barrel is now officialy married with the action




just coming back from the proof house in Suhl the biggest step is taken. to my surprice, because its not in the list, Triebel Guntools in germany had have a complete set of tools - headspace gauge and chamber reamer and this was realy necessary because headspace was way out of specs.
we were talking now about the whole concept and the gunmaker have +/- 4 weeks to solder the open sights on the barrel and make the claw mount. when the scope is ready I will see it again. last step is to bent the bolt and when this is done I get the rifle in the white back home to make the stock.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (23/11/11 11:31 PM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #189550 - 10/09/11 01:40 AM

I'm really happy this project is moving forward!

What style of stock are you planning on?

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #189554 - 10/09/11 03:31 AM

you know that it was allways planned as a counterpart to my Husqvarna M 46 because I am vey pleased with the classic style they found. only difference would be the pistol grib with a cap. its much easier to find a good form with a grip cap than making a good rounded pistol grip.



so it will probably looking a little bit more than a Husqvarna M 146



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Edited by CptCurl (23/11/11 11:31 PM)


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7mmSAKO
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #190223 - 19/09/11 04:14 PM

Quote:

please show more pics from your mosin! I love such unusual caliber - rifle combinations.
have learned that this is a very typical postwar style for finish sporting rifles:





Most interesting finnish made militaryrifle sporter that I have seen was Gewehr-98 rebarreled for 7,62x55. It used swedish-mauser case opened for 7,62 bullet. Im not sure if the chambering was 7,5x54 MAS or some gunsmiths own wildcat. Owner said that the conversion was made before WW2.
Sadly the rifle was rebarreled to .308 win.


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 7mmSAKO]
      #193140 - 06/11/11 02:44 PM

very interesting sporting rifle in finland. what we see on the pics it must be a romania mannlicher M 93 action. probably build by Sako its chambered in 9,3x53R and use the Mannlicher M 95 clip. remember that the 8x50R Mannlicher and the 7,62x54R have a very similar rim/ base diameter.
must have been one of the romania military rifle's captured from austria in WW 1 and rebuild for the 8x50R by Steyr. than comes to finland and sporterized after WW 2.
sometimes its a long way
igorrock is working to get this rifle, good luck









finally Bokmal found a original and complete russian cartridge box for my collection in Finland. its not in my hands just know but I am very happy about it. this is truly the white elephant of the cartridge collectors.
and again with brass case so it seems right that the old production was made with brass when the new LVE ammo have copper plated steel cases.





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Edited by CptCurl (23/11/11 11:32 PM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #195735 - 04/12/11 08:52 PM

Have you had time to work on this project? :-)

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #195758 - 04/12/11 11:27 PM

see the Mosin last tuesday, not so much happen till now. the gunmaker is looking for the end of next february. its a lot of work now and we two have a special agreement: I dont make him pressure and he make me a good price.

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #197752 - 25/12/11 12:29 AM

do you know the feeling when collecting something special and only one thing is missing to be complete?
this post starts two years ago and I hope you not finding it boring till now. the rifle isnt ready but like two years ago I get a package from finland with very rare things:














its the green-white ammo box, LVE 9,3x53R made in 1970. surprisingly its labeled only in english
seems to be someone there had have a cristal ball in 1970. so the only cartridge box I miss now is the new LVE ammo.
being a strong suporter of the one load for a rifle concept the ligther russian bullet looks like a good idea for roe deer or whitetail deer in Finland and let the original sako bullet for moose.

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Edited by CptCurl (26/12/11 10:13 PM)


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tinker
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #197761 - 25/12/11 02:47 AM

Nice!







Cheers
Tinker

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: tinker]
      #197770 - 25/12/11 07:57 AM

So they arrived in time for Christmas?

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #197806 - 25/12/11 09:27 PM

I think it might well be possible to sell the cartridges for 20 euros per round to hardcore cartridge collector's so you did not the best business bokmal
the english labeled box is a mystery, isnt it?

the sako stock for Mosin's also coming



I remember that here is a another pics of an old russian ammo box and its still in russian


the only market for this cartridge was finland so my only explanation is that they make a special "export" box

rare exports, for sure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RQlikX4vvw

the 9,3x53R would be a good choice

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Edited by CptCurl (26/12/11 10:13 PM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #197809 - 25/12/11 09:36 PM

Quote:

I think it might well be possible to sell the cartridges for 20 euros per round to hardcore cartridge collector's so you did not the best business bokmal



The help and friendship you've given over the years are worth much more!

Quote:

the english labeled box is a mystery, isnt it?



My assumption is it is because it could not be imported to Finland or elsewhere without english labeling. Why they've chosen to call it 9mm intead of 9.3mm and x53 instead of x54 is beyond me

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #197814 - 25/12/11 11:50 PM

Quote:

Why they've chosen to call it 9mm intead of 9.3mm and x53 instead of x54 is beyond me



Simple, because they named "their" cartridge in the old European fashion not for the bullet, but for the bore diameter, sans rifling grooves. Remember, Their "9mm Makarov" pistol cartridge uses .365" bullets, so it is actually a 9.3mm too. Or, the European "6.5mm" numbers use .264" = 6.7mm, the "7mm"s .284" = 7.2mm, the "8mmS" .323" = 8.2mm bullets. The maximum length of the 9.3x53R Finnish (CIP name)is 53.3mm, so "53" is a more apt designation.


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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #197819 - 26/12/11 02:13 AM

Beat me to it!

Thanks kuduae.

In addition, the light 9mm Mak FMJ bullets make for grouse loads in the 9.3 rifles. Maybe won't work too well in some of the overbore Swedes, but should go well with true .366 rifles. A load of fast burning pistol powder should take care of it, and if you like, a "Cat's Sneeze" load is another option.

Also, if you look back many years, I think you will find other USSR sporting arms marketed in English, too. IIRC, I've seen various ammo and even the Medved was marketed with English material, tho I cannot verify the latter. Also, I am not aware of any sale of the 9x53 Medved in any English country at at any time. Maybe somebody knows? I remember reading about it when I was a young man and thinking "The Commies really have something here...wish I could get one!"

lanc; I am fascinated by your whole thread. I wrote piece for Wolfe Publishing in the early 90's on the M/N and had a collection of them, and really came to respect them. I always wanted a 9,3x53R but never got around to building one...then met the 9,3x57's and gave up on the idea. Your whole project is absolutely fascinating with its resurrection of this great old idea. And I'm sure the end result will be worthy of much shooting and piles of Moose, too!

Fröhliche Weinachten und auch Waidmansheil, natürlich!

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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #197833 - 26/12/11 06:15 AM

Quote:

The maximum length of the 9.3x53R Finnish (CIP name)is 53.3mm, so "53" is a more apt designation.



Danke Kuduae! What you say about calibers makes sense.

But still, the x53R case designation is not that clear (not that it makes much of a difference, either). The russians have always designated their old military ammo 7,62x54R while we Finns used 7,62x53R for what is essentially an identical cartridge. I know that many claim that there actually should be a 0,5 mm difference in case lenght, but in reality it often is not there. That's why I wondered why they chose the x53R for a civilian round.

@Lancaster, what is the actual case length?

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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #197834 - 26/12/11 07:32 AM

I do not know if this has anything to do with the x53R noemclature choice, but when you expand a case to receive a larger diameter bullet, the case "shortens" {just like occurs when I neck up 8x57 cases to 9.3 caliber}. Who knows, maybe the Russian engineers measured the x54R case after an experimental trial of the 9.3 {"9mm"} round and just called it "x53R" as a result.

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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #197835 - 26/12/11 07:55 AM

Quote:

Who knows, maybe the Russian engineers measured the x54R case after an experimental trial of the 9.3 {"9mm"} round and just called it "x53R" as a result.



Could well be the case... I guess we'll never know for sure...

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #197863 - 27/12/11 03:59 AM

I am sorry for being late

CIP maximun lenght 53,30mm

for the 7,62x54R and also the 7,62x53R which also exist in the list the maximum case length are the same 53,50 mm for both.
cartridge designation isnt logic!

the Sako brass is 52,85mm

the LVE brass is 52,74mm

remember that the list giving maximum measurments for the cartridges. the factorys will be allways under this and different lots will shows some small difference also when made in the same year.

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #197866 - 27/12/11 05:30 AM

My list shows a working pressure of 57,000PSI CIP Pezio for the 7.62x54. I assume this is for the MN rifle.

Hmmm - might have to pick one of those up from Tradex - under $200.00 seems to me. Might make a good sporter and brass is easy to get here. Easy re-barrel and chamber to 9.3x54 as well. Something to think about.

Since gives .30/06 performance in 7.62, if 9.3 or 9.5, should match .35 Whelen through 9.3x62 and .376/06 as well. No flies there.

Intersting rounds and food for thought, tks lancaster.

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #197870 - 27/12/11 06:16 AM

Is there any idea to re-barrel Siam Mauser to 9,3x53R ?

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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #197873 - 27/12/11 06:38 AM

Quote:

Hmmm - might have to pick one of those up from Tradex - under $200.00 seems to me. Might make a good sporter and brass is easy to get here. Easy re-barrel and chamber to 9.3x54 as well. Something to think about.



If you do, please use a refurbished M/91-30, not any rarer variant! Pretty please!

Quote:

Since gives .30/06 performance in 7.62, if 9.3 or 9.5, should match .35 Whelen through 9.3x62 and .376/06 as well. No flies there.



My (Finnish) reloading manuals gives the 9.3x53R performance in between the 9,3x57 and the 9.3x62. I think a 9.5x53R would have serious problems in equalling the .376/06 with heavier bullets.

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #197888 - 27/12/11 09:02 AM

Depends on the actual capacity of the case. At 57,000 psi, there's some room for experimentation.

I don't have a list on the 9.3x53R's currently loaded pressure.

here's an add.

Mosin Nagant M91/30 with Laminated stock. Each rifle comes with bayonet, sling, ammo pouch, cleaning kit and oiler. Overall very good to excellent condition, arsenal refinished. $169.00

$225.00 for the ones listed as Ex-sniper rifles. They do not say if drilled and tapped for side mounts.

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #197913 - 27/12/11 04:02 PM

max. pressure:

9,3x53R Finland 3400 bar

9,3x53R Swiss 1800 bar

9x57R 2500 bar

9x56 Mannlicher Schönauer 2400 bar

9x57 Mauser 2500 bar

9,3x57 2600 bar

if the 3400 bar is rigth its very high and the factory load will not use this. I for myself orient on this:




having sevenhundred 16,6 gramm Sako bullets I hope in the end that the identical load of N 140 will shot in the Husqvarna and in the Mosin .

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Edited by CptCurl (27/12/11 11:21 PM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #197928 - 27/12/11 09:01 PM

A friend of a friend pointed out that the Russian 9x53 is really an 9,22 and not a 9,3!
Check linked (Russian) document HUNTING CARTRIDGE 9X53. TYPES AND BASIC DIMENSIONS


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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #197931 - 28/12/11 01:10 AM

Lancaster;

A Doctor from Colorado, USA, over on the Swedish Commerical Arms forum had a 9,3x53R built and also had a 9,3x57. He did quite a number of comparison tests with them both and found them to be virtually identical in his guns. IIRC, he used the exact same loads in each.

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #197950 - 28/12/11 05:02 AM

I forgot to write down the 'x' bar = 'x' psi multiplier - anyone remember it?

Dividing 57,000 by 3,400 gives 16.76 but that is not the number provided (I don't think) in the other thread - or was it this one?

57,000 is the CIP PSI given for the 9.3x54R on the chart I have.

My chart also shows the 9.3x57 to be loaded by Norma at 43,000PSI. Working backwards from the above listing in bar, the 16.76 multiplier gives 43,566 at the 9.3x57's pressure. Close enough, I guess to my chart. Note the 9.3x57 does not have any CIP standards however we've come to use 8x57 data and headspace for it. The 8x57's pressure is not used for the 9.3x57 as the 8x57's max. pressure is 57,000PSI CIP.

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"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII

Edited by Daryl_S (28/12/11 05:12 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #197952 - 28/12/11 05:29 AM

the bullet diameter of the russian version I found once was 9,25mm and iirc thats .365
also the bullet diameter for the 9mm Makarov. there is no problem with a .366 bullet in a .365 barrel! think about the 404 jeffery - .423 and the 10,75x68 -.424 diameter where barrels of both diameter were used for both cartridges.


when you measure factory bullets of a given diamter its common to found them smaller than expected. not all but many
I load to many obsolete cartridges that I need so much standardisation as possible.

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #198183 - 31/12/11 10:05 AM

I was doing some research on Ibex hunts & found a chap on another site who hunts them & look what he has been using !!!

A Mosin !!



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Edited by CptCurl (03/01/12 07:39 AM)


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Carcano
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #198305 - 01/01/12 12:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Why they've chosen to call it 9mm intead of 9.3mm and x53 instead of x54 is beyond me



Simple, because they named "their" cartridge in the old European fashion not for the bullet, but for the bore diameter, sans rifling grooves.




Very correct, Kuduae. The Russian military version of the 9,3x64 (used as a sniper cartridge in the SVDK, and loaded by LVE Novosibirsk) is called "9x64"; yet it uses the same bullet diameter.

Carcano


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Carcano]
      #198381 - 02/01/12 02:19 AM

its true for the 7,62x54R also which must have a 7,62mmm bore to a 7,87mm groove diameter. when we remember that the 9x57 have a bullet diameter of 9,08mm and the 9,3x72R have a maximum bullet diameter of 9,57mm there is at least some kind of a system in the russian style.

I am not a fan of plastik stocks and weaver mounts Sarg but the rifle you have post looks very good and it did the job as you say. must have been a dragunov muzzle break and together with the very pc bended bolt it have some elegance.
got work and miles away from the bubba victims.

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Edited by lancaster (02/01/12 02:19 AM)


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333_okh
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Sarg]
      #198666 - 04/01/12 12:36 PM

Quote:

I was doing some research on Ibex hunts & found a chap on another site who hunts them & look what he has been using !!!

A Mosin !!










I like the ballistics charts on the stock. I used to keep them on a short barreled [16/5"] 308 as well. Thing dropped like a stone past 300 yards.


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333_okh
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 333_okh]
      #199883 - 18/01/12 03:41 PM

So my ISSUE: I have a Mosin Nagant action made in 1895 by French Chatellerault. I is now an M39 Finn with a fabulous SAKO barrel. NO STOCK.

Where do I go what do I do? NO PLASTIC?

http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=493399&d=1324437760

http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=493396&d=1324437767

Replacement stocks are in bad shape, and although best in the Mosin line for design, still leaves a lot to be desired, BUT this old girl is 117 years old just like the action of the owner for this thread? Must do it justice.


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 333_okh]
      #199885 - 18/01/12 04:20 PM

333 okh, I think you'll find some quite nice custom stock ideas in this thread. Mosin sporter stocks are available every now and then on eBay, eGun, Richards Microfit, from Finland etc. etc. I once got a really nice Bishop MC for the Mosin from a gentleman in Dallas.

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333_okh
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #199970 - 19/01/12 02:42 PM

Quote:

333 okh, I think you'll find some quite nice custom stock ideas in this thread. Mosin sporter stocks are available every now and then on eBay, eGun, Richards Microfit, from Finland etc. etc. I once got a really nice Bishop MC for the Mosin from a gentleman in Dallas.




I am looking for Finnish classic designs for the Mosin or military. I will look over this more.


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333_okh
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #199972 - 19/01/12 03:01 PM

Quote:

I think it might well be possible to sell the cartridges for 20 euros per round to hardcore cartridge collector's so you did not the best business bokmal
the english labeled box is a mystery, isnt it?

the sako stock for Mosin's also coming



I remember that here is a another pics of an old russian ammo box and its still in russian


the only market for this cartridge was finland so my only explanation is that they make a special "export" box

rare exports, for sure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RQlikX4vvw

the 9,3x53R would be a good choice




I am re-reading this whole thread...

Question: Was this a SAKO sporter stock made for Mosin rifles?


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 333_okh]
      #199976 - 19/01/12 03:26 PM

Quote:

I am looking for Finnish classic designs for the Mosin or military. I will look over this more.



If you're looking for an original M/39 stock including fittings I can probably help. The Tamarms gun show is coming up in about 1 months time, the Arma Aboa in April. These two are among the best to source Finnish Mosin stuff. A complete stock with all fittings goes for 75 +/- 25 euros (depending on condition and general luck). Up to 200 euros more for an original bayonet. There were over 50,000 M/39 made but only 10,000 bayos...

Quote:

Question: Was this a SAKO sporter stock made for Mosin rifles?



Yes. Sako factory sporterized Mosins for a few years immediately post war in the calibers 5.6x53R, 6.3x53R, 7x53R, 7.62x53R, 8.2x53R and 9,3x53R. Sako factory ammo for all these were made with the 8.2 and 9.3 still available.

Sako had a couple of designs for civilian sporter stocks, Lancasters example is a late 1940ies model.

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #199989 - 19/01/12 06:28 PM

btw, the stock looks a little bit different now. I remove the thick varnish and make it a little bit more classic. good example why not having varnish on a gunstock. wet was coming in the wood, and it will allways find the way, and "blue" it a little bit.




when the barreled action is in the stock I will trim the forearm much more.






because there was a small crack I make a special screw that goes through the rear part( macking it unbreakable as I hope). the rear action screw will be drilled through the head of this stock screw.






--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (23/01/12 12:38 AM)


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333_okh
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #200120 - 20/01/12 04:29 PM

I have one person locally that has a new never issued m39 stock. I was going to have his duplicated. That SAKO stock I like. ARGH...this get so confusing...my custom was even easier!

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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 333_okh]
      #200245 - 22/01/12 05:06 AM

Might not be the best sporting rifle project but…

My new found friend "Bokmal" asked me to post this... so blame him if this sucks...

It all started as a joke… My friend and I were playing around with the thought of making a “big game rifle” based on a Mosin Nagant. My friend is a Mosin collector and has a vast knowledge in this excellent piece of machinery. The idea was to create an ideal weapon for elk hunting in Finland. Both of us are hunting in areas thick with vegetation and quite short shooting distances. We decided on the .458 as the bullet diameter. We had considered both .45-70Gmnt and .450Marlin, but both would have required a lot of work on both bolt and action. The caliber, for our project, would become .45x54R and be based on the 7,62x53R. This meant that we wouldn´t have to do any changes on the bolt, only the magazine body.

This caliber, was no new invention, because there have been guns registered in Finland in calibers that are very similar to ours. For example 11,6x55R made by Erkki Maekinen and .458x53R Gunhill made by Jarmo Kauppinen. I´m sure, that other similar calibers exist. Maekinen used an old Arisaka model 30 as base and Kauppinen the “Russian” Winchester model 1895. As Maekinen´s 11,6x55R, also our .45x54R, was to be made using case-blanks from Sako. These Sako case-blanks where marked 12,4x55R and picked out of the production line before they would be necked down to 7,62x53R . Ours would be shortened to 54mm. Kauppinen used both Sako case-blanks and 9,3x53R caliber cases which he necked up to fit a .458 bullet. Reloading of brass, would be done using 45-70Gvmnt reloading dies.

The idea was to get the same effect out of our caliber as from the hottest .45-70Gvmnt loads. This is certainly possible because the parent case 7,62x53R tolerates higher pressure than the .45-70Gvmnt, even though the .45-70Gvmnt case has a volume advantage of 3%. Testing in this matter is still on-going, but the little testing we have done, suggests that .45x54R is a very potential caliber. So far I have been able to get 2200fps from a 300grain Hornady Interlock HP bullet, without any pressure indications what so ever. This is more than enough to kill anything one might encounter in the Finnish forest. One of the advantages, compared with the .45-70, is that we don´t have to seat the heavier bullets all the way to the crimp-groove, thus leaving more room for gunpowder.


(From left to right: 400gr Remington CoreLokt modified to RN, Hornady 300gr HP modified to Semi-SPTZ, an expanded 9,3x53R case with a H&N 300gr)

Enough about the caliber... more about the gun…

My friend bought a box of Finnish Mosin Nagant parts from a gunfair in Tampere. That box included the bolt, reciever and magazine body and it only cost 60euros. My friend already had a complete reciever with parts for himself. He also found a second hand .458 barrel from a 45-90 black powder rifle for himself. I found my barrel on-line on a website for hunters in Finland. It was a new barrel made by Erkki Maekinen. Both barrels have the same 16´ twist, but my friend has a longer (barrel!!)…

I modified my magazine body simply by cutting it open and straightening out the grooves for the shoulder and expanding it in the front end. Then all was welded together by a professional welder. The magazine body now fits 4 bullets and one can empty it the normal way, by opening the floorplate. The magazine body was sandblasted, to get rid of old tool marks and scratches and finally blued.



The barrel and other parts were sent to a gunsmith, Alpo Tapper, in Lannevesi near Jyvaeskylae in Finland. Alpo also made the reamer for the .45x54R. The headspace gauges are the same for the 7,62x53R, so he didn´t have to worry about them. He modified the bolt handle to look like it was from a TAK-85 and also made a ring safety cocking knob. The side-mount with a weaver rail he machined from a piece of metal. This is his design and is firmly attached with two hefty screws. This design makes the otherwise “soft” Mosin receiver a little bit steadier, improving accuracy, not that it much matters in a caliber like this.





After a mandatory test-shooting in Riihimaeki (at the old Sako factory where the police test-shooting lab is), I finally got all the pieces home and could start putting everything together. By that time I had also received the stock I had ordered from Boyd´s Gunstocks. It took me quite a lot of elbow grease and a lot of sandpaper, to get the barrel to fit the stock that was made to fit an original Mosin in caliber 7,62x53R. I finally got it fitted though. A mounted a Tikka Pro Gold 1,75-6x22 on it with a pair of Quick-Site weaver rings and was itching for a test shoot…





After the test shoot I ended up fixing the stock and fitting a proper recoil plate in the stock. That because the stock split in half just after 10 shots. This is fixed now and I´ve also made proper bedding with Acraglass Gel. The stock splitting could have been avoided, but when you have an itch… you just have to scratch…

This one might kick like a mule, but is still very nice to shoot. Much softer recoil, i might add, than the 9,3x53R Finnish!!!

Edited by CptCurl (23/01/12 12:43 AM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #200249 - 22/01/12 05:22 AM

Welcome to our merry bunch of Mosinistas, DCCGS!
Thanks for sharing!

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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #200252 - 22/01/12 05:36 AM

Don´t mention it... You´re to blame for it...

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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #200264 - 22/01/12 10:24 AM

Welcome to forum, Mr Cashman ! There is never too many who likes custom Mosins.

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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #200302 - 22/01/12 07:06 PM

Yes about that... the username "cashman" was taken or otherwise not allowed, that´s why DCCGS..

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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 333_okh]
      #200313 - 22/01/12 09:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

333 okh, I think you'll find some quite nice custom stock ideas in this thread. Mosin sporter stocks are available every now and then on eBay, eGun, Richards Microfit, from Finland etc. etc. I once got a really nice Bishop MC for the Mosin from a gentleman in Dallas.




I am looking for Finnish classic designs for the Mosin or military. I will look over this more.




I´ll just jump right in and start barking out advises..

The problem with the customized sporter stocks made to fit a Mosin, is that they are hard to come by. When you find one, the owner knows it´s value and doesn´t want to sell it or wants a ridiculous price for it or only sell the whole gun and not only the stock.

Sako spoterized some Mosins (I have one in 8,2x53R… I´ll try to find a picture) and they are very good and of high quality, but next to impossible to find second hand. No one in their right mind would part from one and put a piece of plastic instead…

I´ve also seen lots of different types of handmade target rifle stocks for sale, but most are useless for hunting purposes…

If I was to start a Mosin project in an original caliber, I would buy one of these: http://www.boydsgunstocks.com/BOYDS-CLASSIC-MOSIN-NAGANT-p/200-358.htm ... and then modify it to look like it was made by Sako… or whatever. The inletting is the hardest part and this way one wouldn´t have to spend a lot of lime on it…

Just an idea...


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #200330 - 23/01/12 02:37 AM

hello cashman

nice to see the biggest version now

"This caliber, was no new invention, because there have been guns registered in Finland in calibers that are very similar to ours. For example 11,6x55R made by Erkki Maekinen and .458x53R Gunhill made by Jarmo Kauppinen. I´m sure, that other similar calibers exist. Maekinen used an old Arisaka model 30 as base and Kauppinen the “Russian” Winchester model 1895. As Maekinen´s 11,6x55R, also our .45x54R, was to be made using case-blanks from Sako. These Sako case-blanks where marked 12,4x55R and picked out of the production line before they would be necked down to 7,62x53R . Ours would be shortened to 54mm. Kauppinen used both Sako case-blanks and 9,3x53R caliber cases which he necked up to fit a .458 bullet. Reloading of brass, would be done using 45-70Gvmnt reloading dies."

did I understand right that the sako brass is headstamped 12,4x55R? never heard or see this before. was it ever an "official" brass case. iirc Norma had sold once 30 06 basic brass that was cylindrical. a good idea if you have a 10,75x57 but unfortunately not available anymore. would like to have one of this basis brass cases for my small collection.
will this case also accept a .475 diameter bullet?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (23/01/12 02:37 AM)


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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #200334 - 23/01/12 03:52 AM

Quote:

hello cashman

did I understand right that the sako brass is headstamped 12,4x55R? never heard or see this before. was it ever an "official" brass case...
will this case also accept a .475 diameter bullet?




Now, when I read my own text, I understand why you would think that...
Sorry if I explained it poorly. The BOX, that the cases come, in is stamped with 12,4x55R, NOT the case itself. The case has only the Sako stamp and is otherwise plain. It has never been an official case.

Lapua made an even longer version they used for the “12x75R squirrel shotgun” but haven´t made them for a while. Igorrock might know more about that since (if I remember correctly) he shot his first squirrel with one of those shotguns. Don´t know if that was an official caliber either. There were quite a few shotguns made from Mosins after the war.

Whether this case can be fitted with a .475 bullet, I don´t know, but it would be quite a straight cartridge and thus hard to get to work properly in a bolt action rifle. I´m only guessing though…

I have found an official source that can provide me with a few more cases, but after that I´m sad to say, that even I have to start using expanded 9,3x53R cases. Neither Sako nor Lapua makes them anymore, but there are still lots of them around.


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #200344 - 23/01/12 05:14 AM

I am familar with the 12x75R shotgun cartridge concept.
understand that someone grab this brass you mentioned out of the factory like the primed 22 lr cases you find sometimes.

you would be to short with 9,3x53R brass open up to .458 but you will allready know this. two weeks ago I was making 10,75x52R brass from 8x56R and 53mm was the maximum left over from the 56mm it starts. I am dare to say you would not get more than 51mm from a x53R case.



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (23/01/12 10:42 PM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #200348 - 23/01/12 06:32 AM

Quote:

he shot his first squirrel with one of those shotguns.



Actually, there was no squirrels, at age of fifteen I shot first two of my wood grouses with 12,0x75 mm Mosin shotgun :-)

This Mosin was made by Westinghouse factory in USA, modified to shotgun after II WW in Jyväskylä, maybe in Tourula factory. LAPUA factory made these cases shortly after wartime.

Nowadays this Shotgun is in The Hunting Museum of Finland, Riihimäki.

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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #200349 - 23/01/12 06:51 AM

Quote:

I am familar with the 12x75R shotgun cartridge concept.
understand that someone grab this brass you mentioned out of the factory like the primed 22 lr cases you find sometimes.

you would be to short with 9,3x53R brass open up to .458 but you will allready know this. two weeks ago I was making 10,75x52R brass from 8x56R and 53mm was the maximum left over from the 56mm it starts. I am dare to say you would not get more than 51mm from a x53R case.




If I would start with an 8,2x53R or a 7,62x53R that would certainly be the case. I´ve already made some 30 of .45x54R (52R) cases out of 9,3x53R cases and the medium length is closer to 52 than 51. This doesn´t matter since that is long enough and works for practice shots... After them firing the first time, the cases had fireformed and “grown” additionally a few tenths of a millimeter.

You are right they are not 52mm, but let´s not split hears. The actual “trim-to-length” for the .45x54R is 53,8mm, but I still call it an x54R.

Regarding the grabbing of brass from the production line. I don´t know how it´s done, but I know that who-ever does it, does it with the permission from Sako and with good intentions... I wrote to Norma and Lapua to ask if they could help us. Norma replied shortly "No" and Lapua I haven´t heard from since. Mayde I asked the wrong person at Lapua.

A small private company in Germany offered to help me make cases from scratch, but I would have had to order by the thousands… The price wasn´t too bad though… http://www.huelsen-horneber.de/rechts_engl.html.

Edited by DCCGS (23/01/12 07:06 AM)


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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #200351 - 23/01/12 06:57 AM

Quote:

Quote:

he shot his first squirrel with one of those shotguns.



Actually, there was no squirrels, at age of fifteen I shot first two of my wood grouses with 12,0x75 mm Mosin shotgun :-)

This Mosin was made by Westinghouse factory in USA, modified to shotgun after II WW in Jyväskylä, maybe in Tourula factory. LAPUA factory made these cases shortly after wartime.

Nowadays this Shotgun is in The Hunting Museum of Finland, Riihimäki.




OK... Squirrels schqirrels... close enough!! It was something up high and flying or something..


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #200934 - 29/01/12 01:14 AM

still waiting for the end of february I working on my Sako stock. it came with plastic caps on butt end and pistol grip and I managed to get replacement parts.
the butt plate was without a question





polished steal is allways correct and it can start now ageing and patinate



for the pistol grip I got an old( maybe pre WW 1)blank cap pressed from horn. nice matrial to work with am I in the end a little bit in doubt about the thickness of the cap. do you think its to thick now as it is??? should I reduce the thickness of the cap for maybe the half?




#





dont worry about the srews

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (12/03/12 09:39 PM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #200955 - 29/01/12 06:55 AM

"should I reduce the thickness of the cap for maybe the half?"

I would take away about 2 mm. In my eyes the buttplate seems to be a little bit too small. Maybe you will modify the butt end ?

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Daryl_S
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #200963 - 29/01/12 08:27 AM

Some years ago, in the 90's, a fellow re-barreled or re-bored a 7.62X54R and chambered it for the .50 Alaskan. He wrote it up in Precision Shooting. It was a light rifle due to the thin barrel walls, and of course a 450gr. bullet at over 2,000fps kicked quite a lot in the 7 pound rifle. I've still got the article, somewhere if anyone's interested.

BTW - same rim diameter as a .45/70, but of course, uses a straighted .348 WW case.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #201068 - 30/01/12 04:15 AM

Quote:

... I've still got the article, somewhere if anyone's interested.




I would be very happy if i could read this article. So yes please, I´m interested indeed..


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #201073 - 30/01/12 05:27 AM

Quote:

I would be very happy if i could read this article. So yes please, I´m interested indeed..



Ditto!

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Grenadier
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #201084 - 30/01/12 09:35 AM

Very interesting project. I have been toying with a similar wildcat I call the .405 Grenadier. It is based on the 7.62x54R case and topped with 300gr .411 diameter bullet. It was designed for the Marlin 1895 rifle. I had a Marlin rebarreled for the cartridge and it works out fine but I think it will do even better in a bolt rifle. I recently acquired a Siamese mauser and will be having it modified to test my theory.

This is the 7.62 next to the .405 Grenadier



This is the 45-70 next to the .405 Grenadier


By the way, the easiest way I have found to make cases is by just firing 7.62x54R cartridges in the .405 Grenadier rifle - fire forming.

Now, as to why I mention this here. I believe the .405 Grenadier would be a perfect cartridge for a modified Mosin Nagant. The extra magazine length would allow the use of 400gr Woodleigh bullets. I have the reamer and.......

--------------------
~

Edited by CptCurl (12/03/12 09:41 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #201146 - 30/01/12 08:17 PM

Quote:

"should I reduce the thickness of the cap for maybe the half?"

I would take away about 2 mm. In my eyes the buttplate seems to be a little bit too small. Maybe you will modify the butt end ?




optical illusion




thinking its better now



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (12/03/12 09:48 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Grenadier]
      #201147 - 30/01/12 08:19 PM

grenadier, do you get 405 win ballistik with your wildcat?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #201160 - 30/01/12 10:46 PM

Quote:

grenadier, do you get 405 win ballistik with your wildcat?




I would guess that the .405 Grenadier is at least as potent, if not even more so, than the .405Winchester. The 7,62x54R cartridge withstands a lot more pressure than the .405 Win and I reckon that this compensates for the much shorter case. Correct me if I´m wrong.

Congratulations on a very good choice of name for your wildcat!!


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Grenadier
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #201177 - 31/01/12 02:00 AM

The .405 Grenadier is still being explored. Only preliminary individually "hand-made" loads have been fired. I am waiting for the custom reloading dies before I get serious about working it up fully. In the Marlin rifle I expect to get a little over 90% of the velocity of the .405 Winchester cartridge. I am expecting 2000fps +/- with the 300gr Hornady. As I get it fleshed out I will post on a separate thread.

However, higher velocities would be obtainable in a bolt rifle like the Siamese, Mosin-Nagant, or Lee Enfield. In a strong bolt action I think you could get velocities that would be on the heels of the 450-400 NE. As pointed out above, the 7.62x54R is a 390 MPa (57,000 psi) cartridge. A bolt rifle will allow for a greater overall cartridge length and allow the use of 400gr bullets.

The .405 Grenadier was developed for the Marlin 1895. It has some real advantages over the .45-70 cartridge in that rifle but I will save addressing those for another time. Just let me say that once I started playing with the .405 Grenadier I realized it would only reach its true potential in a bolt rifle. As mentioned, I have acquired a Siamese Mauser. After I get some dies and work up loads for the Marlin, I will turn to the Siamese.

Meanwhile, if someone wants to try the cartridge out in a Mosin-Nagant, I am open to loaning the reamer out. The only concern I have is that it might go to a beginner who buggers it up so I have to order another. Bearing that in mind, I will freely lend it out so long as it comes back to me within a reasonable time and in good condition. If there is a member who is serious about trying it out in a Nagant then send me a PM (personal message). I would love to see a Mosin-Nagant sporter in this cartridge.


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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Grenadier]
      #201184 - 31/01/12 03:14 AM

Haven´t decided yet but my next Mosin project might be a .375x52R. There are still plenty of old .375 barrels around that Valmet made for the 412S double rifle. They were intended for the USA market as 375 Winchester, but since Valmet got in financial trouble, the plans never came true. Jyri Jalonen, a well known gunsmith in Finland, has made some Valmet 412S´s in this caliber. At least he would have a reamer for it. It only seems natural to make a Mosin in this caliber as well as any based on the 7,62x54R.

The .405 Grenadier would otherwise be a good prospect, but bullets for the .405 (10,45mm) are hard to come by in Finland.


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kuduae
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #201211 - 31/01/12 07:08 AM

Why reinvent the wheel? In GUN DIGEST 2000, page 106, Janne Pohojoispää published an article "Children of the 7.62x54R". Besides the more familiar (in Finland)5.7x53R, 6.3x53R, 7x53R, 8.2x53R and 9.3x53R he lists a 9x53R Urheiluase of Helsinki, a .375x52R by Jyri Jalonen to use .375 Winchester barrels for the Valmet, a .416x53R by Pekka Helenius and finally a 11.6x55R, a .458" cartridge on Sako case blanks. Both the .375 and the .416 versions feature an improved shape with a longer powder space and a shorter neck, the .375 resembling the 9.3x53R Swiss case somehow.

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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #201213 - 31/01/12 07:12 AM

Quote:

Why reinvent the wheel?



Why not? Why let somebody else have all the fun..?

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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #201219 - 31/01/12 08:14 AM

Quote:

Why reinvent the wheel?




If the best invention man ever made is the wheel, then the second best must be the spare wheel..!

Who said anything about inventing something new? Isn´t the most common way to invent new things, to copy someone else´s work and renaming it and then claiming it your own! The .405 Grenadier might be the first newcomer in a long time, if someone was to make a Mosin in that caliber. As far as I know, nobody (over here in Finland) has made a Mosin in the .375x52R caliber either. And THAT is what we are talking about… Right? At least I am...

Yes I know the topic is ”The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history”… the world is quite a big place and history has a tendency to repeat itself… Well then why shouldn´t we “Mosinistas”?


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Grenadier
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #201227 - 31/01/12 09:51 AM

Quote:

Why reinvent the wheel?




Nothing was reinvented. I was familiar with, and considered, those cartridges for use in the Marlin rifle. I went with the .405 (.411") instead of .416" because of the limited overall length restrictions of the Marlin. Bullets available in .416 are 400gr and they are too long for the Marlin rifle. But the 300gr .411" bullets made for the .405 Winchester were a perfect fit, to include the location of the bullet's cannelure ring. It was necessity that drove me to use .411" instead of .416".

I am already down the road with the Marlin. Now, here I am with a reamer, a pile of .411" bullets, and a Siamese Mauser. For me the next road to take is clear. Perhaps a Mosin is down the next road after that one.

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Daryl_S
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #201231 - 31/01/12 10:46 AM

Quote:

Why reinvent the wheel? In GUN DIGEST 2000, page 106, Janne Pohojoispää published an article "Children of the 7.62x54R". Besides the more familiar (in Finland)5.7x53R, 6.3x53R, 7x53R, 8.2x53R and 9.3x53R he lists a 9x53R Urheiluase of Helsinki, a .375x52R by Jyri Jalonen to use .375 Winchester barrels for the Valmet, a .416x53R by Pekka Helenius and finally a 11.6x55R, a .458" cartridge on Sako case blanks. Both the .375 and the .416 versions feature an improved shape with a longer powder space and a shorter neck, the .375 resembling the 9.3x53R Swiss case somehow.




AH-HA! no .475's nor .50's!!!!!

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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Grenadier]
      #201261 - 31/01/12 05:43 PM

Quote:

I went with the .405 (.411") instead of .416" because of the limited overall length restrictions of the Marlin. Bullets available in .416 are 400gr and they are too long for the Marlin rifle. But the 300gr .411" bullets made for the .405 Winchester were a perfect fit, to include the location of the bullet's cannelure ring. It was necessity that drove me to use .411" instead of .416".




This is one of the reasons why I decided on the Mosin Nagant as my project. You can fit a much longer cartridge in the magazine box and not always have to seat the bullet down to the crimp groove. This way you leave more room for gunpowder. You can also play with the COL. and use slower burning powders.


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #201304 - 01/02/12 04:07 AM

If you do Mosin .375x53R, its very usefull to find somewhere bullets which are made for .375 Win -ammo. Such bullet opens easier and are shorter than those for .375 H&H etc.

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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #201306 - 01/02/12 04:36 AM

Yes you´re right, but .375 is a quite a common caliber even here, at least when comparing with the .405. I might also make a .338x53R. Living here in Sako-country, one can´t help stumbling over bullets in .338…

But right now I´m saving money for a totally different project, involving a Baikal over-under shotgun and a .308 Win barrel I have lying around..


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #201338 - 01/02/12 07:27 PM

I think Baikal IZH-94 is quite cheap to buy....but maybe you want the bullet in over pipe.

http://www.sissos.fi/tuote/baikal-izh-94-%28baikal-ij-94%29-taiga-sis-stoppariura-12-308/3020000003/

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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #201367 - 01/02/12 11:59 PM

Yes Sir I know that they are cheap, but you´re missing the point. It wouldn´t be “self made” and besides, I want one in 30-30Win. You are talking to the certified DIY guy now… The whole idea is to be able to use one gun as a double shotgun or a combo with just an “insert” barrel, with just a fraction of the prize of an IZH-94 with both double shotgun barrels and a combo barrel.

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #201404 - 02/02/12 03:52 AM

The .375" Hornady 225gr.SP is an excellent bullet over quite a range of velocities. The nose is fairly soft, pointed for a flatter trajectory, yet the bullet shank is expressly thick, ie: 1/16". We'd have no problem using them here for moose and elk - or for longer range deer shooting.

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Daryl


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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #201841 - 07/02/12 05:14 AM

If there are any left handed Mosin enthusiast, I happened to find an old re-barreled or re-bored Finnish Mosin. It was in the caliber 9,3x53R and in pretty good shape. I have plans for all the other parts but the stock, since I´m right handed myself.

A few pics:






It´s a Finnish army competition stock and not so rare except for it being left handed of course. It has a fancy Finnish name, which I don´t know how to translate, so please Bokmal or Igorrock educate me, if you find an English word for “vapaakiväärin tukki”.

What I´ll do with the rest of the rifle, I don´t know yet, but I ordered a reamer for a wildcat named 9,3mm Short Magnum. This is, in its simplicity, a .350 Remington Magnum (or 6,5mm Rem Mag) that has been fitted with a 9,3mm bullet. The idea is to make a new chamber in this already 9,3mm barrel, to fit this wildcat. Time will tell what becomes of it though…

Edited by CptCurl (12/03/12 10:01 PM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #201850 - 07/02/12 07:47 AM

Quote:

It has a fancy Finnish name, which I don´t know how to translate, so please Bokmal or Igorrock educate me, if you find an English word for “vapaakiväärin tukki”.



This rifle is a model for 300 metre rifle three positions which was in Olympics between 1900-1972. So the correct term is just a Free rifle.

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #201906 - 08/02/12 12:21 AM

I visit Mister Chamber Reamer because the claw mount was ready and here are first pics. it looks like my project makes some progress. the gunmaker told me it was an interesting experience to make the claw mount but generally no fun.


















now when the scope is ready the bolt will be extent and bend
here with my Husqvarna in 9,3x57 that will also go to a specialist for bending the bolt a little bit more for the scope.



I hope it will be a nice pair one day.

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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (12/03/12 09:50 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #201907 - 08/02/12 12:28 AM

to my own surprise the gunmaker hade a Mauser in 9x57 in the workshop. a simple but very, very slender rifle made from Franz Kettner in Suhl. not to confuse with the well known Eduard Kettner Köln und Suhl. But I have no doubt that Franz and Eduard were related to each other.
the hunter now own it got the rifle with other's from an inheritance and did not know what do because 8x57IS clearly dont fit. never heard of a 9x57 and thats all common.
a forgotten round









very rare to find a 9x57, a 9,3x57 and 9,3x53R same time in a shop here

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (12/03/12 09:54 PM)


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Daryl_S
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #201928 - 08/02/12 04:34 AM



I really like the way that Mosin is coming along. It looks great. I'd never considered one as a sporting rifle before- I've now changed my mind. They are very reasonably priced at Tradeexcanada - SO - which is better, octagonal action/barrel or round? I even thinkg there's a barrel maker in Alberta who will bore and re-rifle. A 9.5 would be about right!

Tradeexcanada usually has a few 9x57's with lots of 9.3x57's and 9.3x62's in stock - all Huskys.

My next step is to pick up a 9x57 to match the 9.3x57 I bought from them 3 years ago. The M96 9.3x57 and M98 Oberdorf 9.3x62 have both taken moose. It would be nice to shoot a moose with a 'new-to-me' 9x57 Husky next fall with a 250gr. Hornady, about 2,300/2,350fps - quite easy for the M98 action.

A 9.5x57 would be nice to have, but will have to make it up myself.

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"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #201942 - 08/02/12 06:17 AM

yes, must say that's not bad. I have the feeling that something remarkable could be formed here.

the hex receiver have more charakter! if you wish to build a mosin sporter.
a .375x53R would be a good idea and our finish members can probably showing such cartridges. I believe its the biggest diameter you could rebore an original barrel. be warned about a claw mount, I have payed 300 euro for this and deliver 3 from 5 parts. the gunmaker make a socket for the hex receiver and a new rear feet from scratch for this rifle. and I dont believe you get such work for such price anywhere.
EAW makes a side mount also for mosin that I would consider being correct.


10-15 years ago I looked at anything not be a Mauser 98 down as being obscure. time have change this but I believe it start one day on a gunshow when I had a Mannlicher M 92 sporting rifle in my hands the first time.


I was wondering about your statement that Husqvarna was making 9x57 Mauser sporter and the website shows only german made M 98 in 9x57
http://www.shop.tradeexcanada.com/produits/95?page=11

the price is a steal for what you get

the Franz Kettner rifle was excellent build, to bad I dont make a pic side by side with the husqvarna. my feeling now some hours later is that it was only half as much of the swede.

the 9,5x56 Mannlicher Schönauer is easy to build into a M 98 action

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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (08/02/12 06:22 AM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #201945 - 08/02/12 06:53 AM

Quote:

I have the feeling that something remarkable could be formed here.



I have followed this project since the beginning, and having seen your recent pictures, I cannot help but feel the same!

And a little, little bit of jealousy, because my project is not moving forward...

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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #201946 - 08/02/12 07:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have the feeling that something remarkable could be formed here.



I have followed this project since the beginning, and having seen your recent pictures, I cannot help but feel the same!




I´d have to agree. Especially the stock, is in my mind, a very good find. The lines of it are something that my eyes really rest on.


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Daryl_S
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #202027 - 09/02/12 03:58 AM

Lancaster - German 9x57 M98 - that's OK. It was lumped in with the Husky's and I assumed they were as well. I didn't know Husqvarna didn't make 9x57's - OK by me - either/or - they're just decent hunting rifles to me & I desire one.

The article I'm looking for, I was sure was in a Precision Shooting Magazine, was a straight re-bore on a Mosin Nagent to .50 Alaskan. The barrel was VERY thin adn the finished rifle very light. The fellows loads were lighter than I was using in my .50 Alaskan Rolling Block due to the recoil he was soaking up.

A new barrel would eliviate that. The older Hodgdon Annual Mannuals had .50 Alaskan data - like the 2006 Issue or so.

It's a dandy round. My bro has a 620gr. mould ordered for his Sharps in that chambering.

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"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #202066 - 09/02/12 09:08 PM

Daryl, I have study swedish auction house catalogs and they have a lot of 9x57 Mauser rifles from the Suhl-Zella Mehlis area made in the 1920ys. solid and simple working guns and I suspect most were bought before Husqvarna start the M 46 in 9,3x57 in 1927. the price was maybe the main reason for the success of the Husqvarna rifle. I have tried to find out this and the Mod 46 cost 133 swedish cronor when Geco M 98 sporter start at 190 and go up to 330 cronor. very possible the price was higher because of swedish duty. that was a convincing argument.
like before 1927 the swedish gentleman hunter with enough money bought german rifles. it may have cost twice as much but with the well known quality possible it have been something of a status symbol.

there is no doubt that the 9x57 will do more than expect from the size.

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Edited by lancaster (09/02/12 09:09 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #202068 - 09/02/12 09:12 PM

Lancaster,

Your Mosin is coming along very nicely.

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FrankS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: NitroX]
      #202780 - 17/02/12 09:49 PM

Lancaster, been following this project since it started. It definitely has taken on a life of its own.
That plus all the other rifles that just seem to blend in with the build theme. I've a octagon receiver and spare parts squirreled away someplace. Funny thing, you can get moisins here in the U.S. for about $100 and for the most part (good barrel of course) they shoot way out of proportion as to their cost. My first introduction to the moisin is/was a model 27 Finnish rework. But the best part was the barrel. The barrel is marked VKT which I am told is "of TIKA" manufacture. Bright shiny lands and grooves. Shoots cast bullets very well. Thanks for keeping us posted on your project. Probably the most interesting one I've seen. Frank


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #202782 - 17/02/12 10:20 PM

Quote:

The barrel is marked VKT which I am told is "of TIKA" manufacture.



Hello FrankS! Slight correction; the Finnish M/27 rifle was made by the State Rifle Factory (Valtion KivääriTehdas = VKT). If the barrels haven't been changed during post war refits they should be marked VKT. Tikka also made barrels for most of our variations of the M/91 Mosin Nagant. A Tikka barrel should have a capital T within a triangle.

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #202817 - 18/02/12 06:16 AM

Quote:

Lancaster, been following this project since it started. It definitely has taken on a life of its own.
That plus all the other rifles that just seem to blend in with the build theme. I've a octagon receiver and spare parts squirreled away someplace. Funny thing, you can get moisins here in the U.S. for about $100 and for the most part (good barrel of course) they shoot way out of proportion as to their cost. My first introduction to the moisin is/was a model 27 Finnish rework. But the best part was the barrel. The barrel is marked VKT which I am told is "of TIKA" manufacture. Bright shiny lands and grooves. Shoots cast bullets very well. Thanks for keeping us posted on your project. Probably the most interesting one I've seen. Frank




good luck frank

when I was starting this many people I told it( and I dont told it many at all)were shaking their heads mildly. the best argument they had was that I would never be able to get my money back if I sold it sometimes.
well , I never had the intention to sold the rifle. thats how people can complete misunderstand you.

if I can give you good advise:

allways look how it was made in the old times with classic rifle's - there is a reason they became classic's

slime and trim all parts so much as possible

use classic methods like rust bluing and oil stocks

set classic iron sights on the barrel, without it will never being complete

the scope mount is a very critical point, avoid modern rail mounts and similar stuff
there is no doubt that a claw mount is the most esthetic solution but this is maybe not possible for you. I would recommand a german sidemount as the second best.

--------------------
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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #202828 - 18/02/12 08:48 AM

"I would recommand a german sidemount as the second best.

This Griffin & Howe -mount could be quite good alternative too. My good friend has it in his Mannlicher Schönauer.



Edited by CptCurl (12/03/12 10:09 PM)


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FrankS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #204692 - 07/03/12 09:16 PM

Bokmal, could very well be a tika barrel. However will try and sort though them and double check the barrel marking. One thing is for certain, will never sell this rifle. shoots cast bullets like no one's business. Thanks Frank

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FrankS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #204693 - 07/03/12 09:28 PM

lancaster, I've seen a few variations on the bolt handles. A butterknife bolt handle would fit right in with your classical rifle theme. Would have to cheat regarding the iron sights. Can't see the irons as well as I used to. So some form of scope mount will have to do. I have a semi turned douglas 375 barrel blank that I picked up some years back. If I remember right it has a 1x14 twist. so should be good for the 375x54. The bullets manufactured here in the states for the 375 winchester run @200 grains and the other runs at 220 grains. Speer makes a 235 grain spitzer soft point (I have 3 100 bullet boxes.That would be my bullet of choice. The action is a hex receiver moisin and have a Finnis trigger and sear spring for that action. Should be very workable. I'm thinking of keeping the barrel a little heavier than a normal sporting rifle contour. Still will double check the twist before it goes into the lathe for some weight reduction. Thanks for the advice. Frank

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #204742 - 08/03/12 06:58 PM

a "Mannlicher spoon handle" was on the list for some time but I reject this idea for being to germanic

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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #204743 - 08/03/12 07:23 PM

"Germanic" would imply high quality gear and workmanship in the eyes of Finnish riflemen, both then and now...

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #204838 - 10/03/12 03:41 AM

home and dry

the gunmaker is ready now, making the finish will be my own work in the next time. the mosin is sleeping the first night in my gun safe today.

















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (12/03/12 10:10 PM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #204840 - 10/03/12 04:00 AM

Congratulations, Lancaster! That is one well proportioned rifle!

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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #204897 - 11/03/12 05:53 AM

Very nice !

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tinker
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #204901 - 11/03/12 07:00 AM

It looks great -- I also really like the scope mount details.

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: tinker]
      #205284 - 16/03/12 06:39 PM

just for your entertainment: the stock will get oil 5 -6 times the next days and then everything is ready for rust blueing.
here with my husqvarna in 9,3x57 its becoming the pair I hope.























the next pics I post will shown the rifle finished. thank you for your patience!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (16/03/12 11:23 PM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #205290 - 16/03/12 11:31 PM

Very nice work. I am anxious to see it finished.

Curl

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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: CptCurl]
      #205297 - 17/03/12 02:04 AM

A range report would be nice, too! :-)

BTW, how do you like the Mauser-style safety in actual use?

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #205432 - 18/03/12 09:59 PM

how I like the mauser safety? I love it, works fine also with the scope. if there is a safety issue because it lock in the "wrong" direction? never, when you stay with the common saftey rules and point the barrel not in a direction where it not to have be. five rifles here lock in the opposite direction so you have to be attentive, of course.

dont know when I find the time to visit a range. I have load 50 rounds with Vithavuori( what else) N 110 and my homemade 230 grains softpoint just for adjust the sights, the gunmaker had made a 3 shot group with skao factory ammo at 50 meter and iron sights to see where it goes and it shot 4 cm high and 8 cm left iirc. he was not keen of the trigger characteristic because it dont have the common double pull trigger.

I have time enough to become familiar with the trigger

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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #205439 - 19/03/12 01:26 AM

Quote:

it dont have the common double pull trigger.



Do this mean that you have converted the original two-stage trigger some way ?

Edited by Igorrock (19/03/12 04:02 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #205448 - 19/03/12 02:42 AM

no, did nothing on the trigger! when you pull the trigger sometimes it breaks and I was believing this was normal

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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #205458 - 19/03/12 04:05 AM

Ok, some people here in Finland just used to convert the Mosin trigger so that there is no pre-pull before breaking.

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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #205467 - 19/03/12 07:31 AM

There are many ways of fixing the pre-pull, but no safe way to totally get rid of it in a Mosin. The 9,3x53R I bought for my next project has one of those dangerous modifications that could easily get someone killed. I myself, don´t like it, when they make the spring thinner to lighten the pull... And that, I might add, is very common in Finland…

I made a DIY adjustable trigger mod that I use in my hunting rifle. It doesn´t require any modifications to the spring or any other part of the trigger mechanism. I made one for my friends range rifle also. His has an adjustable aft-pull also. This mod doesn´t work in a hunting rifle, cause it doesn´t allow you to take the bolt out without removing the stock.
To make the pull lighter I use shims between the spring and the body.



Pre-adjustment screw inside the triggerhole...



Side view of the fine adjustment screw...



Pic from behind (this is where the aft-pull screw would be if there was one)

I don´t know how this works with the two-stage trigger, but it most definitely works with the most common one-stage trigger which originally has a ridiculously long pre-pull and no feel at all…

Edited by CptCurl (19/03/12 11:41 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #205489 - 19/03/12 12:40 PM

Cashman: the two-stage trigger is like in Mauser 98, first there is pre-pull with small tension and after that trigger breaks. At it´s best the last pull is very short and sharp, normaly quite indefinite. The Mosin trigger allmost allways has this worse situation and that´s why I use aftermarket triggers. They are safe, easy to adjust and the bolt is easy to take away when needed.

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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #205491 - 19/03/12 01:12 PM

The Finn M28-30 and M39 rifles have a simple modification to the trigger that adds two pins crosswise thru the top of the sear hole in the trigger; it allows two bearing surfaces, one as takeup the next as the stop before break.

I had a few and added them to some rifles, they are the best and simplist way to improve a M/N trigger IMO. Adding a slight angle to the sear will make a perfect trigger release.

I also learned how to make a positive double pull on a standard 91 and 91/30. Briefly, it is done by filing and polishing two angled surfaces on the sear nose. You must make the surface highly smooth and polished and also the angle cannot be so great as to prevent trigger reset on a half-pulled trigger.

It can be done, and I modified a number using this method. As such, the trigger has a first stage, then reaches a stop, then breaks. It feels different than a 98 Mauser, but can be done so as to give an even smoother trigger and release. It takes a lot of time and trial and error.

Great thread.

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FrankS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #205494 - 19/03/12 01:53 PM

Lancaster, the stock looks great as well as the modified bolt handle. And with the period style scope and mounts looks even better. Cannot wait until you post pics after the rust bluing has been done. Guess you feel like an expectant father now that you are in the home stretch and finally see your dream rifle finished. This has been a great project as you documented each step and had pics at just about each step of the build. Congratulations, Frank

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #205504 - 19/03/12 05:26 PM

yes, having an idea that wants to become real and being pregnant is very similar if not the same.
I dont want to prejudge the trigger as it is now. it dont feels bad to pull it if you know it and I would not say its unsafe in any way. a hunting rifle have other needs than a target rifle for sure.

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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #205517 - 19/03/12 07:47 PM

Igorrock yes a Timney or another aftermarket trigger is good. There´s no denying that. I just don’t like the look of a side safety, but that´s just my opinion. I like the mushroom or the ring, the ring being more practical.

In my hunting rifle (8,2x53R) I use this mod without the aft-pull screw. In this case I can remove the lock at any time. Actually I adjust the aft-pull with a screw trough the trigger guard…

I like my trigger heavy to pull, with a very short pre-pull. The idea with this mod is that it is adjustable like any aftermarket trigger.

This was just an idea. Feel free to use or not. I haven’t gotten a world-wide patent for it…


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #205632 - 21/03/12 05:30 AM

cashman, would be nice if you could show some 8,2x53R cartridges: factory, handloads , ammo box

together with 7,62x53R cartridges if possible

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Cashman
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #205682 - 21/03/12 08:54 PM

Sure I can. I have some pics, on my computer at home. I´ll try to find time to post some later. I don´t have any factory loads, since the only thing one can find nowadays is Sako Hammerhead loads and I don´t like them much. I have a bunch of original Sako and Lapua boxes somewhere and a heapload of handloads.

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #206716 - 07/04/12 06:38 PM

bokmal send me some pics made with a mobil phone. a new 9,3x53R Mosin sporting rifle project has allready started now.




























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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (24/05/12 08:34 PM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #206792 - 09/04/12 01:11 AM

Not so beautifull but in tecnical mean quite interesting DIY ghost ring sight in Mosin:

http://www.sporterizing.com/index.php?showtopic=8988



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Edited by CptCurl (24/05/12 08:35 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #207604 - 24/04/12 05:20 AM

no news but an interesting 8x2x53R sporter












http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=3835940
I like the pistol grip, very good style
think the rifle will go cheap buts a good basic for a sporter project

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (24/05/12 08:35 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #207859 - 30/04/12 03:40 AM

accidentally I found now the pics of a 9,3x53R double rifle again when looking for other stuff in the Deutsches Waffenjournal 9/97. its a russian Baikal double rifle M 10-09 that was made as an official present for Erich Honecker than the east german head of state in Izhevsk/Russia. the rifle was auctioned in 1997 with his other rifles. a friend have bought a russian hunting rifle in 5,6x39/ 220 russian from this lot. possible I find the owner of this double rifle also. would be interesting to see it. I am sure the double is regulated for the russian cartridge and will have problems with Sako ammunition.
blitz action with ejector's, russian scope on a space age claw mount














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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (24/05/12 08:36 PM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #207956 - 02/05/12 08:53 PM

I have seen some fotos of TULA 9x53R double rifles in finnish gunforums so I suppose it should be a couple of them here in Finland

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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #207959 - 02/05/12 09:26 PM

The scope on Honeckers 9x53 double rifle looks very much like the pre-war russian PE sniper scope! That, in turn, was a russian licence made Zeiss....

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #207961 - 03/05/12 01:58 AM

The Mosin Nagent rifles in 7.62X54R are running from $170.00 for standard rifles and carbines, both round and octagonal breeches, to to $225 for so-called Sniper Rifles at tradeex. How do they shoot? - Anyone?

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kuduae
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #207976 - 03/05/12 07:34 AM

Quote:

That, in turn, was a russian licence made Zeiss....



Sorry, a quite common misconception. The PE scope was designed by another German company, Busch, Berlin, a medium big and famous optical company up to WW2. When the Soviets conquered Berlin in 1945, they immediatiely sacked in the complete Busch factory, machines, people, files, drawings and the rest. Everything and everyone was transported east, never to be heard about again.


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #207977 - 03/05/12 07:59 AM

Thanks kuduae, I stand corrected!

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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #207978 - 03/05/12 08:03 AM

http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/RIFLES7.htm

Quote:

Important markstone of Soviet sniper rifle development was making 170 sniper rifles from M/91 dragoon rifles in year 1926. These rifles known as Moscow Dynamo rifles were equipped with Zeiss Dialytan 4X rifle scope and scope mount manufactured GECO (Gustav Geschow & Co). Testing and development took its time, so the Soviets they didn't introduce their first domestically manufactured sniper rifle until 1931.



Quote:

When Winter War started in end of November 1939 the Soviets had already over 54,000 sniper rifles equipped with PE (PT) and PEM (VP) scopes




I´m quite sure Bokmal means those scopes...

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kuduae
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #207991 - 03/05/12 04:14 PM

Here something is wrong with the source: Zeiss is one company, their 1920s 4x scopes had the trademark "Zielvier". "Dialytan" was the trademark used by another, Hensoldt, Wetzlar, for their 4x scopes. So there were no "Zeiss Dialytan" scopes in pre-WW2 times.

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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #208009 - 03/05/12 09:53 PM

Quote:

Here something is wrong with the source



It´s very normal and easy to mess with those model names. But the truth is that when Winterwar in november 1939 begins, have the russian snipers very high quality scopes on their rifles.

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kuduae
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #208025 - 04/05/12 04:21 AM

Igorrock, possibly the high-quality German scopes the Russian used in the Winterwar were neither Zeiss Zielviers nor Hensoldt Dialytans, but scopes made by the Emil Busch AG Optische Werke, Rathenow (sorry, not Berlin, my mistake). The confusion is explainable: Busch cooperated closely with Zeiss. Since the 1930s they got their lenses made by Zeiss and were bought up by Zeiss in 1943. During WW2 Busch produced mainly artillery, fighter and bomber sights as well as rangefinders. WW2 sniper scope production was left to others, mainly Hensoldt, AJACK, Zeiss and many lesser optics makers.

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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #208027 - 04/05/12 05:30 AM

Quote:

Igorrock, possibly the high-quality German scopes the Russian used in the Winterwar were neither Zeiss Zielviers nor Hensoldt Dialytans, but scopes made by the Emil Busch AG Optische Werke, Rathenow



Those scopes were more or less copies of german ones but domestic russian made. Both russian scope types have lateral reticle adjustment which was quite extraordinary in those days

PE-scope


PEM -scope


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Edited by CptCurl (24/05/12 08:37 PM)


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FrankS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #208652 - 20/05/12 03:07 PM

I wouldn't quite go so far as to say the moisin nagant rifle has become the 98 mauser of 2012 but since I hit a few forums every day I am starting to see a lot more gunsmithing on these rifles. That ranges from just lopping off part of the barrel to some downright beautiful moisin custom rifles. And Lancasters's is one of them. However there is a certain M27 that was reworked by the Finnish that will never see a jacketed bullet as long as I am above ground. Shoots cast bullets like a laser. Low recoil and just fun to shoot. Only thing as we get older the eyeballs don't take to kindly to iron sights. Frank

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #209085 - 26/05/12 09:23 PM

Beautiful project and now I am thinking about making one for my self.I heard there was a custom Mosin Nagant aftermarket trigger maker in Germany.I tried to contact this fellow but he did not sell to the USA.I wonder if Finnish made Arctic Birch sporter stocks are still made as this would be a nice touch and is where I would want to go if I started a project such as this.


Edited by CptCurl (12/06/12 09:00 PM)


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texan72
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #210328 - 07/06/12 09:55 AM

Big fan of old nagants, very nice rifles and stories posted here. I figured I would share
mine it was the first rifle I built from scratch. It was a New England westinhouse, don't have it anymore and this was the only picture I ever got of it but it was used at least. Regards ,RMJ


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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Edited by CptCurl (12/06/12 09:01 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: texan72]
      #210345 - 07/06/12 03:33 PM

small pic but the rifle looks good
not to late to build a another one

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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #210347 - 07/06/12 04:03 PM

Quote:

but the rifle looks good not to late to build a another one


I agree !



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Edited by CptCurl (12/06/12 09:01 PM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #210349 - 07/06/12 04:53 PM

Quote:

Beautiful project and now I am thinking about making one for my self.I heard there was a custom Mosin Nagant aftermarket trigger maker in Germany.I tried to contact this fellow but he did not sell to the USA.I wonder if Finnish made Arctic Birch sporter stocks are still made as this would be a nice touch and is where I would want to go if I started a project such as this.



No-one in Finland makes Mosin-Nagant stocks on a regular basis anymore. Two friends solved this by buying furniture grade arctic birch (i.e. dried and with a nice figuring) and sent an old stock to be copied.

Do you have any more info on the rifle in your pics?

A 7x53R would make a nice companion for that rifle on the hood of your Land Rover

Quote:

not to late to build a another one



Just as long as you don't use an old collectible Mosin-Nagant as base for your project, I'm all for you building another. You obviously got the talent. How did you get the stock?

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texan72
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #210381 - 08/06/12 02:40 AM

Quote:

Just as long as you don't use an old collectible Mosin-Nagant as base for your project, I'm all for you building another. You obviously got the talent. How did you get the stock?



I started with a bandsaw blank, but Richards micro fit stocks from Cailforna carry a few styles of Mosin Stocks if your hunting one.
I do have one planned just haven't found the right one to build yet. That and where can I get one of those Ringed bolts I need one of those ..... Regards, RMJ

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http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com[/

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Edited by 505texan (08/06/12 02:44 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: texan72]
      #210386 - 08/06/12 03:50 AM

btw, I like the remington model 8 also very much! http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com/
waiting now for a winchester M 1910 that comes from sweden but a Model 8 in 35 Rem is also on my list, maybe next year.

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texan72
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #210393 - 08/06/12 04:48 AM

Quote:

btw, I like the remington model 8 also very much!



the Model 8/81's Remington and the FN1900 rifles are my favorite rifles
but like the classic pre-war sporters and doubles also. Make sure and check out
the website you listed I started that back in 2009 because of the lack
of info on them its grown alot since then, lots of great stuff for the
Model 8/81 guy for sure..
Regards, RMJ

--------------------
http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com[/

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: texan72]
      #210446 - 08/06/12 03:46 PM

do you realy see the FN 1900 in Texas? its a rare rifle also in europe were most of them were sold I suspect. this early semi autos are true classic's!
way of topic but this is more or less my own thread: do you have vintage hunting pics showing the Remington 8 or the Winchester self loading rifles?

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texan72
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #210462 - 09/06/12 02:20 AM

Quote:

do you realy see the FN 1900 in Texas


Not many but do know ppl with them, and have shot them. I can get one at the moment for around $2800 us just haven't dropped the hammer on it. And yes heres some old pics of 8's http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com/?page_id=66&album=4&gallery=6

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: texan72]
      #210502 - 09/06/12 12:11 PM

thank you for the link
what happen here? is the bear strapped to the tree for making a pic?


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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:14 AM)


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Daryl_S
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #210532 - 10/06/12 12:27 AM

Grizzly cub tied to the stump for the picture.

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"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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FinnCollector
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #210860 - 14/06/12 02:50 PM

This is a project I have been working on for quite a while...






It has a Redfield Palma Match rear sight and Redfield International globe front, Green Mountain 4140 chromoly 1-18 twist Sharps #1 Heavy Taper octagon barrel , Huber Concepts trigger, custom bolt handle and rework, and a Richard's Microfit Monte Carlo-style stock in presentation-grade Claro walnut with a wide forend and ebony tip/cap. Chambering is .50 Alaskan which is .348 Winchester blown out to .50 cal.

Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:14 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FinnCollector]
      #210865 - 14/06/12 05:27 PM

Very nice rifle ! Do you mean you have made yours stock actual outfit with re-modelling a Monte Carlo ? Could you send some more pictures from yours rifles right side too.

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #210878 - 15/06/12 12:20 AM

hello finncollector

indeed, very nice rifle! reminds me on the old buffalo sharps and thats what the 50 alsaskan is - a .50-70 Government full Nitro.
please show the modifications of the magazin in detail.

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FinnCollector
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #210881 - 15/06/12 02:59 AM

It is considerably more powerful than the 50-70 as the case is .350" (9mm) longer. Also, there is no levergun currently available that can handle 50K PSI.

Right side...



An old photo, before the stock was fully shaped, inletted, and finished.



The modified magazine can be seen on the left. The sheetmetal was removed from the sides and straightened, then re-pinned and brazed. I will take some better photos soon.

The receiver was a 1915 Peter the Great arsenal (Tula) M91 with the Czarist eagles scrubbed and a bad barrel. No SA proof from Finnish capture, and missing the handguard and a barrel band. I had no qualms about using it for this project.

Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:15 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FinnCollector]
      #210883 - 15/06/12 03:37 AM

Just curious but which kind of hunting you normaly use this rifle ?

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texan72
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #210884 - 15/06/12 03:48 AM

vey nice rifle FinnCollector and great chambering.

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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


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FinnCollector
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #210886 - 15/06/12 05:12 AM

Quote:

Just curious but which kind of hunting you normaly use this rifle ?




Hirvi...Amerikanhirvi...paperi.

I have family from Joensuu.


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FinnCollector]
      #210890 - 15/06/12 05:54 AM

Quote:

Hirvi...Amerikanhirvi...paperi.



OK, moose hunter with Mosin

Here in finland very few hunter use aperture sights for hunting, ghostring is a little more popular.

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FinnCollector
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #210899 - 15/06/12 10:03 AM

The rifle is really too heavy to carry on a hunting trip as the barrel is 1.15" (29mm) at the muzzle and over 32" (812mm) long. It is good for long range 300M-600M hunting with 700gr (45g) hard cast lead bullets...though I also have cast some 975gr (63g) spitzer bullets.

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FinnCollector]
      #210900 - 15/06/12 12:30 PM

My brother just picked up a mould for a 600gr.FN from Buffalo Arms in the States. It's for his custom Target sighted 11 pound 4 ounce M74 Sharps. It doens't take long to add up to $1,000 for sights. The Sharps is also chambered for the .50 Alaskan. That's quite a ctg. when loaded with modern powders in an action that can handle some pressure. We've been shooting .50 Alaskan's for about 15 years, but mostly with black powder and lead bullets. Both had McGowan barrels, 24" twist - mine was consistant 1-1/2MOA at 100yards and 3/4MOA at 200. Same 1 1/2" groups at both ranges.

I'd expect that 18" twist in a .50 will handle about any weight you'd care to shoot.

Interesting concept rifle.

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Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #210902 - 15/06/12 01:09 PM



The 975gr .50 cal bullet above is the one I have been casting...you can also see it next to a piece of brass in the top right of the rifle case photo. I am hoping for over 1400FPS in this rifle.

Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:16 AM)


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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Cashman]
      #211013 - 17/06/12 01:23 PM

Quote:

If there are any left handed Mosin enthusiast, I happened to find an old re-barreled or re-bored Finnish Mosin. It was in the caliber 9,3x53R and in pretty good shape. I have plans for all the other parts but the stock, since I´m right handed myself.

A few pics:






It´s a Finnish army competition stock and not so rare except for it being left handed of course. It has a fancy Finnish name, which I don´t know how to translate, so please Bokmal or Igorrock educate me, if you find an English word for “vapaakiväärin tukki”.

What I´ll do with the rest of the rifle, I don´t know yet, but I ordered a reamer for a wildcat named 9,3mm Short Magnum. This is, in its simplicity, a .350 Remington Magnum (or 6,5mm Rem Mag) that has been fitted with a 9,3mm bullet. The idea is to make a new chamber in this already 9,3mm barrel, to fit this wildcat. Time will tell what becomes of it though…




Cashman, if you find another M28/76 or similar "free rifle" stock for sale in a right hand configuration, I would be interested in purchasing it.


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FinnCollector]
      #211021 - 17/06/12 05:44 PM

For a reason or another, there is now quite many Mosin army surplus sportting stocks for sale here in finland. Some of them are even walnut. In this picture is stock for model TAK 85. Notice that the whole action is floating (no contact to stock) and so it need a special bushing (picture aattched) round the barrel which attach the whole action to stock.
This kind of rifle is very accurate when properly built.





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Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:17 AM)


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FinnCollector
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #211023 - 17/06/12 06:05 PM

Quote:

For a reason or another, there is now quite many Mosin army surplus sportting stocks for sale here in finland. Some of them are even walnut. In this picture is stock for model TAK 85. Notice that the whole action is floating (no contact to stock) and so it need a special bushing (picture aattched) round the barrel which attach the whole action to stock.
This kind of rifle is very accurate when properly built.








Igorrock, how much is the TKIV 85 stock?

Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:18 AM)


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FrankS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FinnCollector]
      #211027 - 17/06/12 06:35 PM

Igorrock, are the blonde stocks in right hand similar to the left handed one available in Finland??
And if so how much would one cost. I've a hex receiver action and a set of trigger parts trigger and sear/mainspring along with a UK50 heavy 7.62x54 machine gun barrel just sitting around doing nothing. Would make a nice but heavy rifle fitted with decent scope mounts. Frank


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #211036 - 17/06/12 11:35 PM

This blonde (made from birch) stock has normaly attachments for Mosin action, not floating. This kind of stock is accetable to find but haven´t seen them for a while. Both models, right and left hand are just mirror images of each others.

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FrankS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #211079 - 18/06/12 05:25 PM

Yes the blonde in right hand is the one I am looking Planning on glass bedding the entire action and about the first 1" of the barrel. And with the normal attaching points as you said. I'd even take one of the walnut ones should they become available with or without the bushing. But would prefer the birch one over any other. I have an old Finn reworked 1935 hex receivered model 27 that I shoot cast bullets in. That old rifle can shoot. If anything comes your way all right handed Keep me in mind. Got everything (almost) to get it together except the stock.Leave me a pm on this forum. Frank

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #211239 - 21/06/12 01:35 AM

Interesting rifles .I have a Finnish 28/76 and would consider this more a Target rifle than a hunting rifle as much too heavy to carry for 20 miles or so a day as I do many times while trekking on a hunt.The 28/76 stock is one of the finest designs for pure shooting however.

Edited by Deutsche_Vortrekker (21/06/12 01:36 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #211242 - 21/06/12 03:40 AM

The 28/76 or TAK 85 suits very well to european style tower hunting. You just sit up the tower and waits when the animals (mostly deers and bigs) come to near your place. The weight isn´t any problem.

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #211275 - 21/06/12 12:38 PM

Quote:

The 28/76 or TAK 85 suits very well to european style tower hunting. You just sit up the tower and waits when the animals (mostly deers and bigs) come to near your place. The weight isn´t any problem.


Yes the 28/76 would be fine for the "Hochsitz" just so you did not have to climb mountains with it.I will say this ;it may sound crazy but I really like the Mosin Nagant ;especially the finnish ones.Reliability accuracy and craftmanship all all marks of a Finnish made Mosin

Edited by Deutsche_Vortrekker (21/06/12 07:55 PM)


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Daryl_S
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FinnCollector]
      #211300 - 22/06/12 01:39 AM

Quote:

Quote:

For a reason or another, there is now quite many Mosin army surplus sportting stocks for sale here in finland. Some of them are even walnut. In this picture is stock for model TAK 85. Notice that the whole action is floating (no contact to stock) and so it need a special bushing (picture aattched) round the barrel which attach the whole action to stock.
This kind of rifle is very accurate when properly built.








Igorrock, how much is the TKIV 85 stock?




This style of stock (barrel clamped, action free) was popular with some bench rest shooters in Canada back in the late 60's, early 70's. The design died out before the mid 70's - but- it does show merrit for a STRONG, stiff action. The military actions are not particularly stiff, having rails and open bottoms for magazines.

Just saying, but that is a nice design for a '3-position' or 'prone' rifle.

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Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII

Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:19 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #211303 - 22/06/12 01:55 AM

Quote:

The military actions are not particularly stiff, having rails and open bottoms for magazines.



The reason why SA (Finnish Army) used that patent is just the lack of Mosin action stiffnes, specially with heavy barrel. When barrel is clamped to stock with stiff bushing the action itself has no stress so it can just float and vibrate free. In tests this composition seems to make those rifles more accurate than normal bedding.

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #211306 - 22/06/12 03:54 AM

Yes - I'm well 'up' on the actions and re-actions with the thinsided military actions able to wobble all over - exactly what accuracy nuts don't want.

With standard bedding, and 1/2" to 1" (never on a taper) of the heavy barrel properly bedded, the accuracy was improved with standard actions over even a 'glue-in' clamped barrel.

Welding spacers between the rails to stiffen the actions was a common gunsmith trick here as well, to make miltary actions shoot as well as the various 'stiffer' Remingtons, etc. Then, the blocked/beded in barrel clamps worked as planned with military actions. My blocked, stiffened and glued in M98 agg'd .250" when that would put you in the top 3 along with the real BR rifles. So much for the early 70's. Now, 1/4" is nothing for even a gopher or small calibre deer rifle to beat.

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"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #211449 - 24/06/12 07:41 AM

I have a Finnish reworked moisin model 27 that I got in a trade. At the time I just figured it was just another moisin among millions that were made. Was I wrong!!The first thing I normally do with any rifle is take it apart and clean it. The tip off was the shims under the receiver ring. That and the beautiful VKT barrel. At the time there was no non corrosive ammo available except for Norma. I lucked out and did manage to find a few boxes of Hansen Cartridge non corrosive ammo. This rifle was to be my introduction into the world of cast bullets. C.E.Harris had an article in gun digest about shooting cast bullets in military surplus rifles. So slugged the bbl and ordered a lyman #314299 bullet mold. The rest was history. 2" groups easily at 100yds.
Lyman 3314299 sized to .3135 bore slugged at .3115
Imr 4759 20grs
win large rifle primers
hansen cases neck sized only
javelina lube
Bullet seated out to just kissing the lands won't feed from the magazine because the bullet/case is too long
So this particular rifle will never see a jacketed bullet as long as I have it and its been going on for like this for about 17 years. I'm thinking that more folks should try cast bullets in these rifles. their accuracy might just suprise you.
Frank


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #211482 - 24/06/12 07:20 PM

Those rifles were made for very long torpedo shaped fmj bullets.



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Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:20 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #211611 - 27/06/12 04:39 AM

Here is some detail pictures of finnish sportting Mosin (not mine). The trigger is taken from .22 LR VALMET Leijona target rifle.



















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Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:21 AM)


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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #211765 - 30/06/12 09:22 AM




Beautiful Rifle! Here is my SAKO 28/76 7.62x53R Scharfschutzen rifle with original Finnish mount and Schmidt Bender scope






















Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:23 AM)


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FrankS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #211827 - 01/07/12 05:47 PM

Well if any of you gentlemen come across one of the 28/76 moisin stocks Please do not hesitate to inform me. Actually I have two of the UK-59 machine gun barrels. I bought both from TGI international. The first one was the regular one just a bbl that had the locking lugs turned off and rechambered to 7.62x54R. The second UK-59 bbl was intended to be a replacement barrel for this model machine gun. Still has the carry handle on it as well as the rather cone type flash hider. Could remove the flash hider and install a very effective muzzle brake to cut down on recoil. I seriously believe that the Moisin Nagant rifle in its many varied forms may yet be a sleeper in the gun world. They may look ancient, obsolete but the Finnish reworked one I have Model 27 shoots great with cast bullets. So what could be better than a Finnish 28/76 stock, Finnish hex receivered action and a Czech heavy machine gun barrel. And I have a couple sets of Finnish triggers and sears put away for just a project like this. Thanks for listening. Frank

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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #211842 - 01/07/12 11:02 PM

Those 28/76 stocks are very difficult to find, many people wants to buy them if possible. But it seems that TAK 85 stock (IMHO the better altenative to do very accurate Mosin) could find quite easy.

Here is attached foto and blueprints (measures in millimeter) of TAK 85 barrel bushing:





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Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:24 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #215922 - 02/09/12 04:51 AM

I haven´t seen anything like this before but it seems that someone has really done it. Caliber is original 7,62x54R and magazine from russian dpm 63 machine gun.

Maybe some of this forums members could do the same but in a little sophisticated version....







And seems that it works too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=i_z0Eom7H4k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSZQ8APKY2Q&feature=youtu.be

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Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:24 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #215943 - 02/09/12 04:33 PM

reminds me on this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzl5w1fzZl8

build as a sporting rifle could be useful for culling

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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #216295 - 08/09/12 01:24 AM

had the rifle on the range yesterday, its still in the white dont had the time till now.
make some rounds with N 110 15 grains and a homemade bullet just to see what going on with the scope. first rounds dont hit the paper and I work with trial and error. the old scope where you have the windage screw's in the scope mount are a little bit tricky but in the end it shoot.
the load shoot smooth, recoil but a little girl would have handle this. the action work smooth too!
next time with Sako softpoint's



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:24 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #216320 - 08/09/12 03:14 PM

Nice group with old Mosin ! 40-50 mm...?

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tinker
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #216345 - 08/09/12 07:48 PM

Nice!

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Loc: From the Kalahari to the USA
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #217280 - 27/09/12 09:16 PM

Quote:

Here is some detail pictures of finnish sportting Mosin (not mine). The trigger is taken from .22 LR VALMET Leijona target rifle.




















A beautiful Rifle Igorrock. There seems to be a wealth of triggers for the Mosin in Finland.I once heard of an excellent aftermarket trigger made in Germany;After much research on a German gun/website I found it...and much to my dismay found out he did not ship to USA.When you use a Finnish Mosin with a Tikka , SAKO or Valmet barrel you are assured of getting a top notch barrel for your project. While I have never "sporterized " a MN if I could find a nice Finnish Birch classic hunting style stock ,I probably would begin tomorrow!

Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:26 AM)


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ots03
.224 member


Reged: 15/10/12
Posts: 3
Loc: Argentina
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #218258 - 22/10/12 04:36 AM

I love finnish mosins (from m91 to tkiv85)I got a m91 and m39 sadly their are colector grade and "I cant"put a scope on them...Maybe I will find another for a sporting or fake sniper project (but they are not common in my country)
If you find another spare left hand stock let me know


Edited by ots03 (22/10/12 04:40 AM)


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4433
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: ots03]
      #218259 - 22/10/12 04:59 AM

this is the rare 6,3x53R Finnish, first time I had this round in my hands


very early post war production


the case have a similar volume like 6,5x55 or 6,5x57 but it was never loaded with heavy bullets into this class. its more some kind of super hornet for shooting wood grouse, winter fox or wild geese on long distance



seems to be they made it of WW 2 surplus brass






--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (10/11/12 10:49 PM)


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dirtyjim
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Reged: 23/02/08
Posts: 30
Loc: texas
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #218294 - 22/10/12 11:51 PM

Here is one of my mosin projects. Its just a spare parts build in 220 swiftAI.
I had a shot out remington 1891, a remington 722 barrel in. 222 & a 220 swiftAI reamer laying around and decided to combine them.


Here is a link to the build
http://curioandrelicfirearmsforum.yuku