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Bokmal
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Loc: SW Finland
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150764 - 15/01/10 10:41 PM

Quote:

the little 7x33 is an interesting little plinking round, it must have his own advantage for the hunting situation it was intended.



It's main use was the bigger forest birds, Capercaillie and the Black Forest Grouse. I'm told that it still has a devout following as a Roe Deer cartridge in Norway and Sweden.

Quote:

the 7mm bullet is maybe a big headache if you try to reload. I dont know if its in production, did you know it?



It has been discontinued, NOS Sako ammo costs up to 2€/cartridge in the second hand market, if you can find them...

Quote:

is the little sako rifle a single shot or have it a magazin?



It has a detachable magazine. Around 6 000 L46 rifles were made; in 7x33, .222, .218 Bee and 25-20.

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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #150771 - 16/01/10 12:09 AM

the 22 hornet is a serious hunting cartridge on roe deer if legal. and I dont forget the old german 6,5x27R, also developt as a small game cartridge for the different wood grouse.
the 6,5x27R was shooting a 5,3 gramm softpoint bullet at 480 m/sec and was used on roe deer also.
brass for the 7x33 can maybe made from the a little bit undersized 222 rem. such kind of reloading cartridges(8x63 swedisch from 30 06 brass) works not bad if you center the cartridge in the chamber with tape. I dont know if 5,45x39 brass is now in production, believe PRVI has anounce it once.
donelly wrote that the round use a 120 grain .284 bullet and similar stuff is available from 100 -120 grains. a nice little plinking cartridge
we have leaving the the 9,3x53R topic but my gunmaker wont be able before february to start

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (16/01/10 12:13 AM)


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Grenadier
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150789 - 16/01/10 04:16 AM

Thought this might help in your visualization. It is from a 1939 catalog. Note the dimensions of the stock in the upper left.



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Edited by CptCurl (17/01/10 01:06 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Grenadier]
      #150792 - 16/01/10 04:33 AM

thank you grenadier, this is indeed a good help

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150822 - 16/01/10 09:57 AM

Here is some more pictures of my Mosin in "reality". I hope you can see the sidemount better. The trigger is made by TIMNEY for SAKO L461R and has a safety. My gunsmith converted Mosin to accept it.




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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Edited by CptCurl (17/01/10 01:06 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #150871 - 17/01/10 02:39 AM

I'm ignorant of the Mosin Nagant action, is it a form of action similar to a Mannlicher?

Front locking?


Beautiful rifle Igorrock.

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John aka NitroX

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Edited by NitroX (17/01/10 02:40 AM)


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: NitroX]
      #150878 - 17/01/10 03:13 AM

Quote:

I'm ignorant of the Mosin Nagant action, is it a form of action similar to a Mannlicher?

Front locking?




Somewhat, and yes.



--------------------
Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad...

Edited by CptCurl (17/01/10 03:58 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: NitroX]
      #150882 - 17/01/10 03:32 AM

Quote:

I'm ignorant of the Mosin Nagant action, is it a form of action similar to a Mannlicher?

Front locking?


Beautiful rifle Igorrock.




Actually, you need to look at both the Lebel and the Mauser 71 and you will find features similar to the M-N. Remember, the Russian/Belgian engineering combination was fully cognizant of the contemporary features of other actions.

Front locking, detachable bolt head. Single-stack magazine with a rim unlocking device that prevents rim-over-rim rams. It is a 100% reliable action. Clubby, with a poor trigger design that requires much attention, but a very reliable and VERY accurate rifle system. See the Finn M85 updates in Palokangas' amazing tome on Finnish arms.

My personal experience with the M-N was with various Russian and Finnish remodles, in the field on varmints and a bear, under harsh weather conditions. This is an action that deserves far better than it gets, normally...we have some fellows here that are giving it its due!!!

As for the borrowing of other designs to make a good'un, another project is to open up an AK; see the clear "thieving" of Remington Model 8 and Garand designs. Kalashnikov "created" nothing. His genius was in combining the features of others into mechanical perfection.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #150891 - 17/01/10 04:21 AM

The Mosin is not a mannlicher and I will try to show it first on the bolt . I am sorry for having not a M 86 –M 95 in the house because they repräsent the true mannlicher concept of a straight-pull action. Being a turnbolt action the M 91 inventor’s were knowing of course the french M 86 and the german M88 rifle.

First pic is showing the line from german M88 to swedisch Mauser M96 to M 98(wich we all love)


Second pic is showing the M66 Chassepot bolt, M86 Lebel Bolt, M91 Mosin bolt
The M 74 Gras bolt, standing between the M 66 and M 86 in any aspect is missing.


This kinds of bolts all have a separate head. This idea is coming to an end in the Mosin where the bolt is in my opinion only the carrier who transport the bolt head. This may sound a little bit extremely but it is the reason ,in my eye’s, the rifle is working in –50°C.


In no way we can say that the Mosin is having a Mannlicher Bolt. The straight-pull action from Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher will come back again in gun history 50 years later when we going into the field of semi and full auto rifle’s. the german M 88 also have a separate bolt head but this was the most criticized part of the whole rifle. The Mauser line never have it again and the Mannlicher M93/95, developt from the M 88 also don’t have it anymore.

The Mosin is also not a Mannlicher because it did not have a Mannlicher Magazin.
Mannlicher was not the first to use a box magazin(it was Lee and Russel) but was the first to be sucessful. The Carcano, the french Berthier, the german M 88 use the mannlicher magazin with packet clip loader. The Mosin have a very, very clever box magazin with stripper clips. A spring, a piece of steal (also eject the case) and a little screw handel and control the feed of the rimmed cartridge absoluty brilliant.








--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/01/10 05:05 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150892 - 17/01/10 04:27 AM

Lanc is right and I thought my post made that clear. His post is better, documenting the differences more in depth.

The Russian Mosin designed the bolt, the Belgian Nagant the magazine.

Note the similarities with the Lebel. Remember, too, the French and the Russians maintained close relationships doring the late 1800's.

lanc's last pic shows the cartridge interuptor perfectly.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Grenadier
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #150906 - 17/01/10 05:20 AM

Great info. Very interesting.

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Sarg
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Grenadier]
      #150931 - 17/01/10 09:43 AM

Great info & posts from our European members , thanks to all posters !

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FrankS
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Sarg]
      #150954 - 17/01/10 06:28 PM

I find that this is some very interesting stuff. Shouldn't see any reason why one would not get similar ballistics as to the 9.3x57mauser cartridge. Would be a natural for cast bullets. Especially with the long neck. Thanks for posting. Frank

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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: FrankS]
      #150961 - 17/01/10 09:00 PM

Thanks Lancaster! I learnt a lot about the heritage our Mosins build on! This is why I love forums like this

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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #150973 - 18/01/10 01:18 AM

FrankS; yes, the 9,3x57 and 9,3x53R are pretty much ballistic twins. Some loads interchange.

Also, M-N chargers are very similar to Lee-Enfield chargers.

Igorrock, do you have any pictures of the modifications done to you action to take the Timney trigger?

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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kuduae
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150980 - 18/01/10 02:44 AM

The 9.3x53R Swiss was not limited to Martini actions. Here are two photos of a Schmidt&Habermann, Suhl, o/u combination gun with the rifle barrel so chambered. Proof date: June 1928. Boxlock, double underbolting, Kersten top fasteners.





Edited by CptCurl to display photos.

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German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by CptCurl (18/01/10 08:13 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: kuduae]
      #150981 - 18/01/10 03:02 AM

Again, let it be known the differences between the various 9,3 rim cartridges.

lancaster: I forget...what country are you in?

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #150998 - 18/01/10 06:22 AM

the true and only empire of evil

after some years in the biggest gun show ever, the net, I am not surprise to see this Bockbüchsflinte and also not surprise it was a german gun, better saying a Suhl made gun for the swiss market. but its equal rare to the Suhl made cap gun in 10,3x60R I seeing once.

this post have now 412 view with 41 replies, the older win 95 post have 1930views/55 replies. its remarkable how much interest the 9,3x53R generate. the gun industry developt a new series of super short magnum blabla rounds every year. importing the baikal singel shot rifle and the new made 9,3x53R Mosins from Russia seem's me a much better idea.
two years ago my knowledge about the mosin was what's today about the lee enfield.
close to zero!
it all come's with the cartridge that nobody realy know's but this situation is now change. and why not build a rifle? we all have seen this before http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/custom_rifles/classic_mannlicher.html
for me it was a great inspiration: yes, we living in the plastic/stainless age but dont care about this

the 9,3x74R is the rimmed version of the 9,3x62 - the 9,3x53R is the rimmed version of the 9,3x57

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (18/01/10 07:21 PM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #151001 - 18/01/10 07:59 AM

Sorry my poor fotografer skills but I hope these helps.





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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Edited by CptCurl (18/01/10 08:17 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #151017 - 18/01/10 10:58 AM

Igorrock; thanks very much. Very interesting!!

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #151092 - 19/01/10 05:51 AM

Someone has made quite fine Mosin sporster in somewhere.:)













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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Edited by CptCurl (19/01/10 06:04 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #151098 - 19/01/10 06:49 AM

where did you find this pics? its maybe 17 years ago that a local gun shop here had have a similar sporter in 7,62x54R, heavy engraved with oak leaves all over the action and scope, also the stock. scope mount was again a MS claw mount and it was feed from the original mosin magazin. the rifle was just perfect but I dont had enough interest and not realy care about this. dont know who made this work and where the rifle gone. this sporter here have a additional safety on the pistol grib and a modified magazin hiding in the stock. this make the shape of the stock not completly perfect.
such single row magazin's looking very good on M88 and Mannlicher sporting rifle's. in my opinion its not realy nessesary to change the mosin magazin.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Paatti
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #151102 - 19/01/10 07:29 AM

Quote:

I wish I knew how to say "Excellent Post!!!" in Suomen!




Erinomainen postaus is proper way to say it in Suomeksi (not Suomen)

Very nice project indeed. Keep up the good work.


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #151104 - 19/01/10 07:36 AM

Quote:

such single row magazin's looking very good on M88 and Mannlicher sporting rifle's. in my opinion its not realy nessesary to change the mosin magazin.




How about this ?

http://www.cabelas.com/gun-inventory---scarborough---fine-rifle---1009385-haenel-sca.shtml

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kuduae
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #151113 - 19/01/10 08:28 AM

Igorrock: The rifle offered by Cabela is not a converted M88 Sporter, but a Haenel Modell 1900, about as much related to an 88 as the Mannlicher-Schoenauer is. The M1900s are seldom seen nowadays and are mistaken for custom jobs on 88 military actions!

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