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fuhrmann
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #154186 - 19/02/10 06:43 AM

Quote:



Sic transit gloria mundi




Well said!

Fuhrmann

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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: fuhrmann]
      #154231 - 19/02/10 09:48 PM

there is a Springer single shot stalking rifle in 9,57R on egun just know, very similar to rifle in the springer catalogue.
the description only mention the 10,75x52R and the 8x50R Mannlicher cartridge so its maybe something later.
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2553655&PHPSESSID=a263ddc87f6cd0a14fb71a9c47ca413c
















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (01/03/10 11:12 PM)

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fuhrmann
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #154234 - 20/02/10 12:03 AM

Oh yes, I have seen this one - it's on auction for quite a while.
Information from the seller:

SPRINGER'S Erben, Wien Hahnkipplaufbüchse, Kal. 9x57R
Baujahr um 1928 . Mod. Nr. 186
Sig. auf dem Lauf "Joh.Springers Erben Wien" und auf der rechten Schlossplatte.
Kahles 2,3-7x Abs. 1 auf Schwenkmontage.
Hervorragende Schußleistung
Das ursprüngliche Kaliber war 8x56MS welches von Hartleb, Schleusingen in 2002 auf 9x57R abgeändert wurde.
Lauflänge 57,5cm, Gewicht 3280 Gramm ohne ZF, ZF 340Gramm
Mit Stecher. Bunthärtung

So the barrel was recently redrawn to 9x57R.
I have some doubts about 8x56 MS, that's a rimless cartridge.

Fuhrmann

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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: fuhrmann]
      #154256 - 20/02/10 05:19 AM

I was so busy to compare the pics with the catalogue I didn't notice this. the barrel is looking very thick in diameter on the pics. its more like a 10,75 mm barrel.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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fuhrmann
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #154287 - 20/02/10 08:43 PM

There is a rib on the barrel.
But still, the rifle weighs almost 3.3 kg, and most of it is in the barrel.
I think these rifles were built along the lines of the old muzzleloaders, and also balanced that way.

Fuhrmann

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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: fuhrmann]
      #154616 - 23/02/10 07:56 PM

here it is': 10,75x52R Double Rifle from Kettner Köln with 100 cartridges
http://www.hirschle-waffen.de/warendetail.php?recordID=180 2500 euro





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (01/03/10 11:13 PM)

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Collath_500BPE
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #154625 - 23/02/10 09:57 PM

Hi lancaster,
take care, the old DR from Kettner is not built for 10,75x52R Springer ! It's for 10,75x52R Grünig.Old Express cartridges.
Johann

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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #157821 - 30/03/10 04:40 AM

what I found in the end was that the 10,75x52R rounds from collath 500 had a HWM headstamp. well this means "Harald Wolf Mastergunworks". send Harald Wolf an e-mail about itand here is his answer:He have never loaded ammunition in this caliber because the order stopped because of the death of the customer. the gemtleman from austria had have a beatyful double rifle from Springer's but actually made from Francotte in Liege.
there were made some hundred cases with correct headstamp that he sold two years ago on egun after laying around for 15 years. also some hundred softpoint bullets, made from Delsing in Germany after an original. harald found that Springer's dont have knowledge about the round and show now interest for the components or loaded ammunition.
the bullets for the 10,75x52r springer were very light for the diameter, 16,7 gramm flat( must be arround 265 grains) with a small hollow point.
original ammunition was made till into the 1920 years from Georg Roth and Hirtenberger in austria and maybe in czechoslovakia. he did not find anything about ballistic and service pressure.
this old austrian gentleman had made ammuntion for his double rifle from russian 7,62x54R ammo after WW 2.


this german gunmaker sells 10,75x52R dummy rounds, made from this component's
http://www.dekopatronen.de/html/weitere_patronen.html
they cost 12 euro each and I will at least order one for the collection. if someone here also have an interest,I have send small parts in a registered letter to canada for 3 euro iirc and can make this for you.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (30/03/10 04:45 AM)

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vienna
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #159799 - 01/05/10 08:12 PM

Re Springer
A. Springer 10,75x52R is a Springer propriatory cartridge. Story/hear-say goes that Austrian crown-
prince Franz-Ferdinand - murdered 1914 in Sarajevo- returned very annoyed from an Egypt trip
where he could not bag the crocs he shot at because the cartridge he used was too soft/without
stopping power. He approached Springer's on that and 10,75Rx52R was Springer's answer to this
problem.
B. The beautiful Springer double bore rifle mentioned is probably the one which emerged in
the 1980's in Prague, in absolute new condition despite its age of 70/80 years, for simple reason,
there were no cartridges available at least not since WWII. A late Viennese reloader made the case
from a Romanian (??) case, used Norma powder and a batch of original Springer hollow-point
bullets received from the late father of the present owner-manager of Springers.After 3 trial-shots
the rifle grouped very well both shots.Specification of the reload werde given to the buyer of the
rifle and I understand it finally went to Germany.
C. Springer single-shot rifle - on market now
Old Springer catalogues show this rifle as "own production", an old Ferlach catalogue of no
longer existing "Anton Sodia" shows the same rifle. The Liege museum has a rifle of this shape from
the Prague firm of "J. Nowotny". So this was rather a common/generic weapon at this time.
Springer's own production numbers ceased with 10662 in 1957, the rifle number shown is 16xxx,
so this was one of the bought-in-the-white rifle to varying preproduction status and finished/
retailed by Springer.
D. The American Double-gun-journal has published my articles on Central-European gunmakers
(Nowotny/Prague,Springer/Vienna,Kalezky/Vienna,Weipert gunmakers,Austrian court-suppliers,
Faukner/Prague). You can find backup-copies of that journal in Internet.
You may get some useful and compact information from these articles.
Kind regards
Felix Neuberger

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tinker
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: vienna]
      #159802 - 02/05/10 12:36 AM

Felix - Welcome to NitroExpress!


Thanks for your comments on this discussion, we all appreciate the voice of other enthusiasts of the sometimes obscure history of these fine sporting rifles.

I look forward to future discussions with you here on this site, and as always I value the perspective of you gentlemen around Europe on the development and history of the arms and ammunition.






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: tinker]
      #159842 - 02/05/10 05:54 PM

hallo felix

no, the DR harald wolf was working for was in the possession of an austrian gentleman from before WW 2, harald told me that he had made ammunition from russian 7,62x54R in the 50s for the rifle. rumanian 6,5x53R ammo would be to small to work, the 8x56R M30 is the best case.
I do not wonder about the confusing who had made now the springer double rifle's. there was a lot of globalisation in the triangle Suhl, Ferlach and Liege hundred years ago.
I am aware that the 10,75x52R wasnt a stopping cartridge. it was made to build light and handy double rifles, maybe similar to the 375 NE 2,5" flanged.
do you have a muzzle velocity for the 16,7 gramm bullet?
do you have an explanation for the "10,75x52R Springer Austrian Navy experimental cartridge" designation in some books? no doubt a mistake that someone started and that was copied again.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #159899 - 03/05/10 06:19 PM

" Story/hear-say goes that Austrian crown-
prince Franz-Ferdinand - murdered 1914 in Sarajevo- returned very annoyed from an Egypt trip
where he could not bag the crocs he shot at because the cartridge he used was too soft/without
stopping power. He approached Springer's on that and 10,75Rx52R was Springer's answer to this
problem."

actually the nilcrocodil isn't so big as we imagine, found them easy to handle because they allwas have a string around the neck on the bazaar in Aswan




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (03/05/10 08:32 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #160129 - 08/05/10 04:28 PM

Quote:

When I mention Almasy here was talking about this topic at home also. My girl friend then order his book”schwimmer in der wüste”( swimmer in the dessert) because it wasn’t in our private library. Because there is only a german edition its maybe for interest of you to notice the small hunting related part.
He has a chapter about the barbary sheep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_sheep in egypt, in years after WW 1 also near to extinction. This subspecies is found again some years ago in egypt iirc.
Hunting this animal there under true dessert condition was pricelees for sportsman.
Almasy friend and protector, the egytian prince kemal el din was 1925 the first time in the uvenat mountains.
the prince was hunting for two weeks and don’t see a single sheep. He was talking with the native’s sheikh about let his mans looking for a good sheep and if they know one’s location send a message to the oasis al kufra
where the post was going to sollum, then with ship to alexandria and to kairo. There wasn’t a conection between this part of the lybian dessert and the nile in this time. Month later the letter arive in kairo that a very good male sheep was found. A letter is going back that the prince will arive in 3 weeks and he will give the tribe 20 camel’s if he can take the trophy and the fur back home.
No doubt this was a true present of a prince in the dessert.
The noble hunter arrive, the long greeting happen and the prince asking when the hunt will start. The sheikh answer: my lord, to follow your command my slave Zukkar have killed the animal this morning on the mountain. You will find the trophy and the fur in my modest home.
The prince was thinking something in the moment but give the 20 camels because this simple mind of sheikh would have never understood what was wrong.
In 1930 when prince kemal told almasy the story and show him the trophy it was the world record for the lybian dessert subspecies. Maybe something reading this have the roland ward book and can look if it’s contain this.


in the sudan, around 1930, two not so bad nil buffalo’s and the suitable way to transport them
see more in” Sudan notes and records “XIII/2 London 1930




fuhrmann send me a link for a kessler auction in switzerland that happen 2 weeks ago when we were around for another problem here. when I was looking into the link stumble about a Holland &Holland Mannlicher Schoenauer from the possession of prince kemal





possible that's the rifle prince kemal had have with him on this hunting trip in the lybian dessert. the rifle was delivered from H&H in January 1925 and the hunting expedition happen in 1925/26.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (08/05/10 04:50 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #161208 - 31/05/10 01:14 AM

Harald Wolf send me the drawing for the original bullet that was made again from DELSING GmbH, Neffelweg 42, D-50171 Kerpen/Germany some years ago. no doubt that Herr Delsing is able to make it again


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (03/07/10 10:19 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #163279 - 03/07/10 02:03 PM

bigger pic's from this special Mannlicher Schoenauer

with friendly permission from Kessler Auktionen, Switzerland









and go back to the start two pic's of the French Lebel rifle . allway's looking for more informations about the 445 Grasset Nitro Express cartridge.




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (03/07/10 10:20 PM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #163302 - 03/07/10 10:21 PM

Lancaster,

Your posts are most informative. Thank you very much.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: CptCurl]
      #163313 - 04/07/10 01:23 AM

this post was going an amazing route since it started. lot's of good people were giving information's and help.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #174011 - 24/01/11 10:55 PM

on the 28.11.09 a 445 Nitro Grasset rifle popped up on naturabuy and was sold within 87 minutes.
http://www.naturabuy.com/Carabine-Grasset-l-africaine-item-460583.html
we have tried to reach the buyers and sellers via pm for more information about the rifle , it was unfortunately unsuccessful.
A look at the purchases of the new owner shows someone here with great interest to large caliber weapons.
go after the seller's description of the weapon it was into the seventies in Grasset's shop in Paris. He mentioned that the rifle has a Gras barrel which I am not really surpriced. maybe was the barrel quality of the old M 74 black powder better than I believe or grasset had access to later-made replacement barrels from better steel. that seems not unusual because the grass was still in servise with colonial units.













Grasset's barrel, note the shape and the caliber designation 445 nitro


the gras rifle, same barrel


the 445 Nitro is a 11x59R Gras case, rim diameter redused to +/
- 16mm mm because the bolt of the rifle looks original

8x50R Lebel, 11x59R Gras, 11x59R Hotchkiss/Vickers and a Lebel Bolt head

the lebel bolt measure 16,22mm inside

8mm Lebel rim 15,93mm

11mm Gras rim 16,71mm

11mm Hotchkiss rim 16,53mm
the last remaining question about he 445 nitro is the ballistic but I think that anything under the 11,2x60 Schüler ballistic - 330 grains bullet at 630 m/sec - was insufficient.



and now something completly different

I am still follow the way the 10,75x52R Springer brass and bullets from Harald Wolf were gone. the whole lot was bought from a german cartridge collector. he made the dummy rounds still in trade and sold the rest to a german owner of a Springer double rifle


9,3x53R Sako, 10,75x52R Springer HWM, 10,75x57 handload and 10,75x68 DWM

this man was giving the components to Samereier/Germany. well known here for his lathe turned brass for reduced powder charges http://www.samereier.de/ladetabelle_1.htm
I think that 45 grains N 135 were shooting together in this and also other Springer double rifle's.





Edited by CptCurl (13/02/11 11:34 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #190334 - 21/09/11 04:32 AM

this is another Lebel sporter, belgian prouf for whatever reason
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?236330-Any-ideas-what-this-may-be










--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (23/11/11 11:20 PM)

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9.3x57
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #190361 - 21/09/11 01:06 PM

As usual, sehr interessant!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #250207 - 09/07/14 04:15 AM

this are pics of two different rifles in 445 Grasset Nitro sold in France found by hardrada55

this looks like a plain working rifle without checkering















and this is the sensation
a Grasset cataloge page showing beside Mauser and Mannlicher Schönauer rifles the 445 Grasset nitro and under the Lebel also a rifle build with a Berthier action



it seems the berthier got a new box magazine for the .445



to bad the copy is not readable


now I have to find an original cartridge or get a chamber cast of an original rifle to confirm my theory the .445 is a 11x59R Gras case with the rim dimensions of the 8x50R and a flat nose jacketed bullet.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (09/07/14 12:55 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #254652 - 05/10/14 08:06 PM

Ash

I find another 11x59R cartridge that may be very much like the .445 Grasset Nitro



civilian SFM with a unknown non- magnetic jacketed bullet, same oal like 8x50R Lebel

a shorter brass bullet on a 11x59R with SFM civil headstamp

11x59R blackpowder lead bullet load, lead lost the paper patching in the storms of time



if you reduce rim thickness and diameter of the first round you have the thing. I measure a .439 bullet diameter on the case mouth what will help to reduce pressure in the .451-.454 gras brarrels.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (06/10/14 01:09 AM)

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9.3x57
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #254656 - 06/10/14 12:52 AM

Some day I'd just like to hang around lancaster's place and wade thru his books and collections. Really, lancaster, thank you so much for your posts here. Your eclectic interests find a lot of favor with a number of us and are a window into what are for many of us Americans many mysterious places and times.

I've always been interested in the European and middle European guns and whatnot but never knew there was such a plethora of types and models and "sporterized" versions. The mind of a gun crank is so similar both here and there.

Again, very enjoyable thread and thanks for posting and sharing all of this material with us!!

As a book nut, I have to ask;

Could you at some time give us a list of your favorite reference books for European guns and cartridges?

Thanks you so much!

ETA: lanc: I notice from my Norwegian friend that it seems Euros often have access to "oddball" jacketed bullets that some individual or small company produces. also available much easier is of course cast bullet molds. Even custom molds can be had for the price of a box of custom jacketed bullets. I know you are aware of this but I am wondering; do you ever go this route or is there some reason you prefer to investigate and find jacketed bullets? Lubed well, the cast bullets can stand pretty high velocities and of course with some of the rounds you bring up the velocities are low enough to be no concern at all.

Do you have access to lead scrap? {wheelweights, etc?} As for that last bit, it seems states here are little by little gravitating away from lead wheelweights which are the life-sblood of casting for many of us. I have a barn full of them so am not worried myself but I understand many have trouble getting scrap lead anymore.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (06/10/14 01:04 AM)

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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #254673 - 06/10/14 03:18 AM

thanks for excusing my curiosity but its only because of this. when you could find such things in coffe table books I would probably not care about it.
there is no better place for news than the terrible net but you have to look in every corner.
I still believe in the theory that children will be only able to get informations from other media too when they reading books. so books are some kind of basement and I have to much of them.

casting bullets with custom made moulds for obsolete cartridges is so common we dont have to worry about it. finding jacketed bullets is allways the trick.
wheelweight becoming rare in europe now and they use zinc instead more and more. I have some weelweight but it will dry out in the future and we will have the same problem here.

Edited by lancaster (06/10/14 03:28 AM)

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Ash
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #259024 - 14/01/15 03:47 PM

"GRASSET rifle caliber .445 nitro , also called " Lebel AFRICAN " . This rifle was designed in the early 1900s by the dealer in PARIS GRASSET to meet the demand of the colonial clientele .; Specifications provided a potent template for use on large African animals; this caliber to be of military origin if possible for ease of supply reasons (that is why many colonial period weapons were chambered in 8mm Lebel , 8mm Mauser and other UK 303). GRASSET had the brilliant idea of ​​combining the mechanics of the new service rifle LEBEL 1886-1893 model GRAS 11mm caliber loaded smokeless powder and pompously renamed " .445 nitro ," this name to the nearby Anglo -sounding names calibres -saxons being intended to bring an exotic touch to the weapon and flatter colonial buyers. Besides the already mentioned size, relative to a Lebel , the main differences are the dimensions = (110 cm for a barrel of 60 cm) ; the bent bolt handle ; the security interest in the cylinder housing; wood "civilized" and grid."

Opinions, Lancaster?

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