Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >> (show all)
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING
      #298255 - 01/04/17 07:59 PM

To anyone interested in linseed oil for stock finishing, here is some info' I can share about better quality linseed oils, alkanet, resins and "English" style gunstock finishing.

I still have a lot to learn about the subject and I'm not trying to tell anyone linseed oil is the best stock finish. The content here is about optimising the linseed and achieving a better linseed finish.

We could easily start a separate thread discussing what might be the best gunstock finish using the many different products a lot of us have tried. I don't think there is one finish that is the best in every characteristic we want in a gunstock finish.

There is too much for me to post in one time so please be patient.

I tried hardware store BLO many years ago as an uninformed teenager. Over the years I also tried many other finish's as many woodworkers do. Much more recently I became interested in the "English" style linseed finish.

After my accident I spent many hours researching the subject and purchased various oils etc to try.

A shelf here with various linseed oils and walnut offcuts- [image]http://[/image] [image]http://[/image]

Various recommendations were to use cold pressed food grade linseed (flax seed oil). I don't trust food grade oils as they can have added vitamins and anti oxidants, even if the label says 100% pure oil. A lot of these oils can also be cloudy. In think it is better to use a perfectly filtered transparent oil. Any additives or clouding particles will slow the drying.

Other recommendations were to use raw or boiled oil without any detail about the quality of the oil.
I kept searching and noticed that Swedish cold pressed linseed is often regarded as the best. The climate in southern Sweden is regarded as ideal for growing high quality flax plants, giving high quality oil.

This oil is intended for woodwork, varnish making, house & commercial paint and hand made artists oil paints. The processing varies a little. Some is delivered a little cloudy. Further ahead in the post I can show a method to filter cloudy oil.

It was very difficult to buy online directly from Sweden so I purchased some from Germany and the USA.

Below are 4 oils from Dictum, Kremer & Sinopia. All these arrived perfectly filtered and you can see how transparent they are in the glass bottles. [image]http://[/image] [image]http://[/image]

All these seem to be equally good. All 3 companies were easy to buy from online. The websites should come up if you google the name but if you can't get them let me know and I can post the links. Sinopia is in USA, the other 2 are in Germany, and Kremer also has a USA division. For Australia deal direct with the German shop as the distributers here are too slow etc.

It's taking a long time to compose all this, getting a bit hungry for dinner now, so i will post the next section tomorrow re filtering cloudy oil, using the psyllium husk visible in one image, and infusing alkanet into it.

I will add a bit here I forgot yesterday about the Swedish oils from Dictum & Kremer Pigmente. They also offer BLO or linseed varnish made from the Swedish cold pressed oil. I don't have any yet as my current interest is in adding the driers myself to the pure oil. This BLO from Dictum or Kremer would be better quality than the regular BLO available here in OZ. The pure oils and some of the BLO have no shipping restrictions. You will also see some tung oil here.
LINKS-
Kremer Pigmente http://www.kremer-pigmente.com/en/mediums-binders-und-glues/
Dictum https://www.dictum.com/en/surfaces
Sinopia http://www.sinopia.com/VS50017-Cold-Pressed-Linseed-Oil-from-Sweden-best-grade_p_11.html

Filtering cloudy cold pressed linseed, images below - I found a method online using Psyllium husk to help filter the oil. The method had some extra stages to further refine the oil for artists use which I felt changed the oil too much so I have just tried the husk stage of the method, with cotton wool as the final very fine filter.

The husk seems to absorb the cloudy particles. Try about 2 tablespoons of husk in 500ml of oil.
Use a bit larger jar to allow expansion of the husk. Shake the jar several times a day for 2-3 days.
Then filter the husk out using a fine paint filter and cotton wool packed into the stem of the funnel.

The paint filter alone won't filter the oil perfectly transparent. It is used to stop the husk clogging up the wool. Lift the filter a bit out of the funnel sometimes and give the gloopy husk a stir to stop it stiffening too much. This amount of oil will take about 2 days to filter thru the tightly packed wool.
[image]http://[/image]
[image]http://[/image]
[image][/image]
[image][/image]
[image][/image]
[image][/image]


Below images of a cloudy Swedish cold pressed oil, comparison between filtered and unfiltered.
Filtered on the left. The cloudy particles have settled a little in the unfiltered oil but you can see it is still a little cloudy compared to the filtered oil.
[image][/image]
[image][/image]


Alkanet infused linseed oil "Red Oil"- alkanet root extract is a very old dye & stain used in various industries. If you google "alkanet root", "alkanet red linseed oil" etc etc you will find most of the info' I found about it. For many years I thought it was just another type of stain.

More recently I have learnt that compounds in the alkanet reacts with compounds and their ph levels in walnut. When infused into linseed oil and applied to the raw wood for the initial coats it is regarded as the best colour & figure enhancer of walnut.

When infused into thinners or alcohol it can also be used as a stain. I haven't tried it as a stain yet. I purchased some root powder from Aussie Soap Supplies instead of root pieces as the powder gives up the colour much faster. However it is harder to filter out than root pieces.
[image][/image]

Below images infusing and filtering. I used about 50gms of root powder to 300ml of oil. I infused one jar for 28 days and a second jar for 12 days. The strength of colour looks the same.


[image][/image]
[image][/image]
[image][/image]

The filtering is done thru a fine paint filter and cotton wool in the funnel stem as per the husk filtering. The root powder turns into a sludge. Stir it regularly to stop it stiffening. This sludge has to be filtered out perfectly. You will see it settle to the bottom of the glass bottle if you don't remove all of it. Any sludge in your coats of finish will retard the finish quality.
[image][/image] [image][/image]

The Langridge oil above, an aussie artists grade cold pressed oil I had unopened for a few years. It was quite cloudy with a lot settling out in the bottom. I filtered it and made some red oil with it.
I will continue posting later today or evening.
















Edited by GABE93 (03/04/17 08:06 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298256 - 01/04/17 08:04 PM

Looking forward to your post progress Gabe,bloody interesting already about the different oils.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298257 - 01/04/17 08:21 PM

Heck yes. I have been using the storebought linseed and tung oil (although the tung oil was noted as pure) so anything that will give me a better finish is a valuable learning opportunity.

I saw this posted on another forum earlier in the day


I had a friend who was a brilliant rifle maker, literally 60 years metalsmithing (no wood), and he was always willing to share his knowledge with others. I had a conversation about it with him once.

I said "aren't you bothered by people copying your work" etc. he told me two things that I thought showed both his character, and why he was as good as he was

1. By sharing his techniques with others and how he had done something, maybe they would improve on it and he'd learn in return.

And 2. If they weren't ready for the knowledge they wouldn't be able to use it yet. when they were able to use it they would have earned it.


And one I vocalised many years ago was that skills and information that was not shared or passed on was likely to be lost and dimished our trade or passion and having been shared may expand the skill base within the specific interest or skill circle.

Post on as you are able Gabe, we are reading with real interest.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: VonGruff]
      #298264 - 02/04/17 12:31 AM

Thanks Gentlemen,
Dinner gave me more energy, I started writing a draft of the comments I want to post tomorrow. Can't do it off the top of my head, would have too many errors.

V G, re tung oil, look for first quality pure chinese tung oil. They make several grades of it. Very few companies advertise any best quality tung oil. Also avoid any from South America, it's not as good apparently.

I'll be happy to discuss anything after I post most of my material.

Also agree with your comments about sharing info.

Something about the forum I need to ask. I'm viewing via internet explorer right now and I can see the images I posted earlier, using explorer, no probs but when I look at my post using Mozilla firefox I can only see the text. In place of the images there are just the words "image image" etc, etc. I wonder if I set something incorrectly re images when I last viewed the forum on firefox.

I started using explorer as it was much faster than firefox when I was working with the images in photobucket.

Cheers,
Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Bidgee
.375 member


Reged: 08/04/15
Posts: 711
Loc: Northern Rivers, NSW
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298279 - 02/04/17 04:17 AM

Thanks for posting this information, I am looking forward to the rest with great interest.

When I first saw the photos Alchemy sprung to mind!

Cheers

Edited by Bidgee (02/04/17 04:18 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298280 - 02/04/17 04:20 AM

Gabe, you have reinvigorated my interest and I have been shopping around the net. I found this mob of which you will undoubtedly know of.

I am not 100% convinced as to the veracity of their spiel as they are after all in 'sales'.Its not cheap and they suggest the use of another of their wares as a mix too. IE a 50/50 cut with Citric Terpene.

20 L @ $500 for the serious wood finisher is costly. Or $46 a single litre.

I thought it was a good read. What do you reckon.

http://www.tungoil.com.au/

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298298 - 02/04/17 02:42 PM

Gryphon, When I bought my tung oil about 25 years ago I got a 4 litre tin that cost about 50 some dollars then. I got it from a reputable paint and associated finishes outlet and what is posted on that site is about what they told me then. I got vegetable turps (gum terpentine) and would apply it in wet sanding and thin rubbing coats for way more than the 4 soak coats they recomend on the website, depending on the walnut density but up to 20 very thin coats was not uncommon over a number of weeks. I also used it on furniture I was making but for that the fewer soak and rub off coats were the prefered usage. I would also melt a little beeswax into a mix for the final application.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rule303
.416 member


Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4896
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298300 - 02/04/17 03:14 PM

Gabe, thanks for posting. I most likely will never try this but I do find it interesting and it never hurts to learn and increase ones knowledge.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Rule303]
      #298305 - 02/04/17 04:05 PM

VG I don`t suppose you have any of the orig tin left,I ask as how well does it keep.
My mate that did the maple stock for me rubbed in 'over 50 coats' he advised.
The rifle is in a silicon stocking and I noticed that it had darkened a little over the years.
I must get it out and take a pic in some good light.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298329 - 03/04/17 06:03 AM

Yes I still have a little left but have kept putting it into smaller containers as the quantity decreased to keep the air above the oil to the minimum. It still produces a very nice finish and with an alkanet/blo oil first coat can bring some fantastic depth to the colour that some walnut will produce.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: VonGruff]
      #298330 - 03/04/17 06:24 AM

do you apply with the use of a hair dryer albeit at the right distance that is.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298339 - 03/04/17 08:39 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Wow Gabe93, you have been busy.
Thank You for sharing.

Regards
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298342 - 03/04/17 11:02 AM

gryphon,
I wont sleep now until someone tells me how to apply finish with your hairdryer
Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298343 - 03/04/17 11:03 AM

Quote:

do you apply with the use of a hair dryer albeit at the right distance that is.




No hair drier for my aplication, just a drop on the fingertip and rub it in to as wide an area as it will ocver then repeat and set aside till it is ready for another going over.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298344 - 03/04/17 11:30 AM

In conjunction with an HD I should have typed.

Meaning using the warm air to keep the wood warm and thus more readily accepting of the oils entry.
I understand warmer means better.. like rubbing wooden furniture with oil in a manner to get the heat into it blah blah.

Like waxing leather boots,belts,saddles etc?

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298356 - 03/04/17 05:09 PM

Yes, I'm aware of some finishers heating linseed oil to make it penetrate more, but usually by warming a very small container of oil in hot water. I haven't tried heat myself. Heat will make any driers in the oil work faster.

The best quality cold pressed linseed doesn't seem to need heat. It is regarded as the best penetrating oil, even without thinners. Pure best quality tung oil is a thicker oil and needs to be thinned to penetrate. The 2 brands I have also need thinning a bit for any final top coats.

GABE


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298359 - 03/04/17 08:07 PM

Continuing the post
Applying red oil to a Turkish walnut blank below. The actual colour of the wood is nicer than my poor images indicate. It is better to store wood unfinished but I can't resist admiring my wood often so I apply a basic finish to the sides and leave the edges and ends raw.

Each side here is sanded to 320g and whiskered then red oil applied, no thinners or heat but I add lead or cobalt driers, usually 2 drops to 1/4 teaspoon of oil. The driers are added to a small amount of oil each time I oil the blank. I don't return any oil left over from each rubbing to the main bottle. I keep the main bottle free of driers.

On this blank I applied 6-7 coats late last year, 1-2 weeks between coats, then left it alone. I add driers right from the start as I want all the oil in the wood to cure hard as possible. Just for the images below I quickly applied a thin coat straight from the bottle, no driers.

You can see how the red oil on walnut is a colour enhancer, not a stain. Many fellows think red oil will turn walnut red. On the white pine fixture the red is clearly obvious. The walnut here has not turned red, the colour has deepened and become a bit richer.

The bits of wood screwed to the blank allow me to handle it with my weak arms. I still cant hold the blank in one hand and rub oil on it with the other hand.

[image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image]

This would be a good spot to insert a link to a video about gunmaking at Purdey. Runs for 1.5 hrs, the stock finish bit is at the end but the whole vid is good. The finisher mentions cleaning the raw wood with a mild acid solution, have not tried that yet. You can see the finisher using red oil and the "Slacum" oil for the harder coats. They don't reveal the exact ingredients. I'll discuss my simple version when I discuss the Amber varnish and pore filling, on some walnut offcuts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fac892fHBME

Below, image of the thinners and driers I like. The thinners is a citrus type. Google Livos Australia, or Livos Germany, to read about it. Livos also makes various linseed based oils, I have some here, but they have too many other ingredients that I feel soften the finish a bit.

I prefer this thinners, it evaporates completely and is claimed to be a better dilutent for wood oils. I have read opinions that the petroleum based thinners sort of breakdown the molecules of the oil a little.

I know pure gum turpentine is the traditional thinners for linseed. If you research gum turps you will see it ranges in quality a lot. I have tried to find the very best, some can't be obtained due to shipping restrictions, but I have not yet found any that evaporates completely.

I test it by smearing some on a glass plate and watching how it evaporates. All I have tried leave a residue on the glass. After a few days some of the residue can harden a bit more but still wipes off easily. This residue remains in the finish and slightly softens the finish. It may be a small point but I did say at the beginning I would talk about optimizing the linseed.

The driers here, one from James Groves Gallery and the Pebeo. Google both names for more info. Pebeo products are available in various countries. James Groves is an artist in the USA and makes various products. He has an extensive website. I will post direct links to him when I post about his Amber and Copal varnish's etc,etc.

Combining different types of driers increase's the hardening effect. The different driers work in slightly different ways on the oil. Be aware driers like this are regarded as a bit unhealthy. Wear gloves. They don't seem to have affected me too much over many years use in various products, I just hide the extra fingers near my elbow with long sleeves!

[image][/image]

Edited by GABE93 (04/04/17 09:15 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298360 - 03/04/17 08:22 PM

Looks great and highlights the colours with a real clarity too. Gabe thats a nice bloody blank.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298361 - 03/04/17 08:23 PM

VG, you can fill your jars with marbles to keep the air out as well. The glass does not react with the contents, this trick is recommended by Rustins.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #298363 - 03/04/17 08:27 PM

Gabe, great article, very interesting. I am going to try adding some of the alkanet root powder to the Danish oil. I will let you know how it goes.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #298364 - 03/04/17 09:12 PM

W,

That's what I would do as well when I try the Danish oil one day. Hope it doesn't start drying too much during the filtering stage, when the oil is a bit more exposed to the air. Try covering the funnel, or perhaps you will think of a better trick.

Don't forget, get all the residue out when you filter it. I wonder if the Danish oil is thin enough to filter thru the cotton wool in the funnel?

Last year I also infused some alkanet into one of my pure tung oils and when I filtered it I had to add a bit of the Svalos thinners to let it drip thru the cotton wool.

The Danish oil might also be good as is over red oil enhanced walnut.

Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298365 - 03/04/17 09:21 PM

gryphon,
This blank is the type of blank I personally prefer, very nice but not too spectacular and with perfect layout. Could be wishful thinking but hope I can work on it one day.

I have various others, very nice but not too flashy, but also have some with bolder figure. They are all on the wall opposite to where I write this.

Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298379 - 04/04/17 04:43 AM

That last pic,looks like its part of a chemists shelf

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
paradox_
.375 member


Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 645
Loc: Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298395 - 04/04/17 09:10 AM

Gabe

Thank you for sharing your hard knowledge
It is much appreciated.

Best
Eric

--------------------
Walk softly and carry a big stick


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: paradox_]
      #298396 - 04/04/17 09:23 AM

Thank you,
Keep looking back as I am going back to my previous postings, editing and adding anything that I notice I have forgotten. When the editing time expires I'll continue the post after whatever replies anyone makes as I go along.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
paradox_
.375 member


Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 645
Loc: Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: paradox_]
      #298397 - 04/04/17 09:29 AM

I find the English " Liberon" oils are very very good. Not cheap though, and they have an agent in Aussie.
They are an English company specialising in furniture restoration products.
Even their 0000 steel wool is of a quality I havent seen before.
Like wise their waxes are suburb .

Gabe I tried infusing the Alkernet root ( I have powder and granulated) through a ladies stocking, a litle less messy, but at some risk of powder leaching into the mixture. Granulated is better in that respect. Just tie in a knot and hang it in the oil.

Keep it coming please!!

Best
Eric

--------------------
Walk softly and carry a big stick


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298398 - 04/04/17 10:03 AM

Quote:

W,
Don't forget, get all the residue out when you filter it. I wonder if the Danish oil is thin enough to filter thru the cotton wool in the funnel?



Gabe




When I make my alkanet oil, I put an oz of the powder into a cup of oil (into a jar) and leave it for "some time" in a warm place and give it a shake every time I go past it. After a few weeks or when it seems to have taken on all the colour it is going to I will let it sit for a week and the powder settles to the bottom of the jar in an almost solid state, leaving the oil clear above it. I can carefully decant it with no need to filter it. I do waste a little at the bottom of the jar so as not to disturb the residue but that is minimal.
I am applying it as a first coat on the stock which is also being used as a wet sanding oil at that stage so there is no concern that I have seen with anything that might have escaped the settling process in the decanting process.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

Edited by VonGruff (04/04/17 10:06 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Juglansregia
.275 member


Reged: 20/04/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Tasmania
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298400 - 04/04/17 10:17 AM

This is a very interesting series of posts, a real treat for me, especially it coming from Gabe who has so much talent, and who clearly has a good deal of time and effort invested in his excellent techniques. There is a certain amount of enjoyment and satisfaction from knowing exactly what is in the finish being used rather needing a chemistry degree to determine what is actually in the can of store bought gloop. Not that the store bought gloop is all bad!

A trick I use after "washing"/filtering the mucilage from the cold pressed linseed oil with Psyllium husk, is to sun bleach the oil before any further steps. I expect Gabe will know of it, and may have tried it. Horses for courses - it works for me but is by no means essential or necessary. I just feel it improves my own gloop. Others might find the opposite?

Sun bleaching, it is said, drops out much of the yellow tinge of linseed oil films. This is true, but I find it a temporary effect as it does darken back up in time - perhaps a shade or two less than other linseed oils. It also has the effect of making the oil harden quicker, but not as quick as the metallic driers. Sun bleaching only seems to work on cold pressed oil, at least for me and I have read it is so. It also thickens the oil slightly. The longer it is bleached in sunlight, the thicker it becomes. I stop at a few months depending on the weather.There is more to it, but the info is out there for folk interested in trying it for themselves.

The least yellowing linseed finish is Stand Oil, which needs cutting with solvent and some sort of driers added. It's a little more difficult to work with, but it's worth knowing about it, and also how is interacts with stains/dyes/alkanet.

Here are just a couple of links to some basic info:

https://firesciencereviews.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2193-0414-1-3

http://www.justpaint.org/weighing-in-on-the-drying-of-oils/


Walnut oil is also interesting to me, especially if it is sun bleached to make it dry quicker. It is a very clear oil and might be worthy of some experimentation for some on here. It has a long history in oil painting, and some excellent properties I have found good in stock finishes when the oil is treated suitably. Cold pressed stuff only, with no additives like vitamin E or whatever. I'm baffled why it is not more use in stock finishes.

Pure cold pressed, unwashed oils with no additives go rancid pretty quick. They need cool storage and nil exposure to air to slow this, and require processing as quickly as possible. I store mine in a fridge in dark glass bottles until processed. Cold pressed linseed takes longer to go rancid than most drying oils, but it can still go rancid.

The main two things I have found with alkanet are that it is very sensitive to pH and that it is not absolutely light fast. I also find that the colour I get from de-barking whole root is more vivid. The ground up root powder I have seen has lots of yellow bits in it, which is the core of the root and I don't want that. Unfortunately the whole root is VERY hard to get in AU nowadays. Experimentation with the pH of the base oil for making red oil gave me some worthwhile results. I think some of the additives and the sometimes practice of bleaching the stock before adding red oil has something to do with pH, more than anything??? I have also found the uptake of alkanet very variable from blank to blank, and perhaps that is another reason why some makers "bleach" their blanks. Our local walnut is the worst I have used in this regard. The experimentation never ends it seems, because each blank, and the wood from each tree, each area, is unique in some way. Walnut is so very variable, not just in looks.

I use a different brew for the red oil, compared to the finishing oil. I find I get better colour with the red oil if it doesn't set up so quick, allowing the wood to be soaked more thoroughly. The finishing oil will harden what is underneath, if done right.

Pure cold pressed tung oil: I find it does not bring out the best colours in walnut, it subdues the contrast slightly and when dried on glass is darker yellow even than linseed. It tends to be dull, too. So if I cut tung oil into a finish it is for it's drying properties more than anything, and fairly low percentages. Most of the so-called tung oil finishes are not really that, they are a manipulated blend of all sorts of goodies. Ditto Danish oil etc. Most folk when they see resins as an ingredient think of natural resins, not phenolic, alkyd or polyurethane resin, etc etc etc. I hope those folk use gloves and don't breathe in the solvents.

I try to use little to no metallic driers, even though they work so well. I just don't like them. With the right blend of oils and natural resins the finish sets up hard, although it takes longer. Application technique becomes much more important. My experience with oil finishes is that the application technique is what is by far the most important aspect - but it pays to use good ingredients, too. I think each person must experiment until they find a system that works for them, hence the variations on the theme.

I am by no means an expert on the subject, but I have long found it interesting. I've added the above in the hope it might be useful to someone. Hope Gabe doesn't mind.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: paradox_]
      #298401 - 04/04/17 10:22 AM

Yes Eric, I also have some of the Liberon products. I used their "finishing oil" for a while and then the formula seemed to have changed and it would not hand rub as well for me. I still have some of their pure tung oil I got about 15 years ago and I believe it is a best quality type of tung. It is very light in colour and quite thick.

Using the ball of stocking to hold the alkanet powder sounds like a good trick. I'll try it next time I make some red oil. Aussie Soap also have bags to hold herbs and powders for infusing.

I tried making a different type of bag to hold the powder and I didn't like it as the oil could not penetrate all thru the powder in the bag and I could not stir it or shake it enough to get the infusing working properly. I got a very good infusion by stirring the loose powder/granules in a jar but that also makes filtering out the residue harder.

Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Juglansregia]
      #298402 - 04/04/17 10:39 AM

Juglans R,

You know more about it than I do, join in when you feel like it. You have more experience with the work than I do. Thanks for the links in your post.

It is taking me a very long time to get the info out of my head and into a post so I was trying to post a condensed form that is pleasant to read and hopefully promotes some discussion.

And I will respond soon to the very nice email you sent me a few days ago.

Regards,
Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Juglansregia
.275 member


Reged: 20/04/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Tasmania
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298409 - 04/04/17 12:39 PM

Gabe,

Phwar! I reckon you know far more than I, and have a mountain more experience.

A lot of mine is in the head also, I do have piles of notes but they are stored deep for the present. That limits my input, because folk will end up with only half the story.

The subject is so deep that I don't think I'll ever stop learning. The more complicated we get with it though, the more we move away from true linseed oil finishes which is your post topic here, and they give a very nice finish indeed. I think it is wise to limit the headaches and complexities.

Anyhow thanks for posting it all. No rush on the email, time short here too.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: VonGruff]
      #298425 - 04/04/17 05:28 PM

Yes VG, of course that's a good method as well. I think I may have used more alkanet powder than necessary, I remember being sort of fixated on filtering it, bit I was happy with the colour I got.

Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Juglansregia]
      #298428 - 04/04/17 06:36 PM

Quote:

Gabe,

Phwar! I reckon you know far more than I, and have a mountain more experience.

A lot of mine is in the head also, I do have piles of notes but they are stored deep for the present. That limits my input, because folk will end up with only half the story.

The subject is so deep that I don't think I'll ever stop learning. The more complicated we get with it though, the more we move away from true linseed oil finishes which is your post topic here, and they give a very nice finish indeed. I think it is wise to limit the headaches and complexities.

Anyhow thanks for posting it all. No rush on the email, time short here too.




Juglansregia,

The extra detail is fine by me for extra research if you want to contribute anything. I had a quick look at the links you posted and will read them properly sometime. Some of the scientific terms are tricky for me but I can understand enough.

You mention various good points earlier to follow up on, thank you. I'll check out alkanet root pieces if you reckon they give a better colour. Kremer or Dictum have them. I'll check my powder for any debris. I'm aware of the sun bleached oil. I don't feel like making any but I bought some. One type from Canada is changing colour after only a few months on my shelf. One from Dictum Germany I believe is much better, it's made from the Swedish cp oil. I intended to mention the sun bleached oil soon. I'm trying to post my info in some sort of logical order.

Kremer Pigmente I believe has some high quality stand oil, I'll try some sometime.

Are you aware of James Groves at all? a link here to his extensive site. Worth a look thru if you havn't yet. http://www.jamescgroves.com/

It sounds like you have tried the full washing technique on cp linseed? I didn't go that far as I thought it might change the oil too much. Groves has a strong opinion against it. He makes a heat processed linseed, I have some and i was going to mention it soon.

Regards,
Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Juglansregia
.275 member


Reged: 20/04/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Tasmania
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298433 - 05/04/17 01:07 AM

Gabe,

I was not aware of Groves. It is a very interesting site indeed. If I'd have found that years ago I'd probably have a dozen kids by now.

I basically agree with what he says. For example, I stated I more or less expected the sun bleached oil to yellow again. It starts out clear but dries yellowish. I don't bleach for that, but the better drying that I get with sun bleaching. I hate yellowed finishes. I think some folk find them attractive though.

But going back to the beginning, with raw cold pressed oil, I hedge my bets and husk and wash anyway. I first learned the habit of washing oils when making biodiesel for giggles, but that is not the main reason why I washed my linseed. It was simply to experiment with the old ways and see what worked.

I think the oils actual gross mucilage present will be mostly dealt with by the presser along with most of the residual moisture in the pressing. But I also note the raw oil is still slightly cloudy, and there are substances in there I know are deleterious to the finish in various ways. When I wash it I eventually get a nifty and bizarre crystal-like jelly-water forming in the "water" or layer that is under the oil that separates out on the top slowly. The washed, Cold Pressed Linseed Oil (CPLO) seems superior to me, so I use it. I generally sun bleach some and keep a fair bit aside for later uses.

As you know there are many ways to "wash" the oil. I simply take boiled rainwater passed through a ceramic filter, add it to the oil and blend buggery out of it for a while to thoroughly emulsify it. One blending is as good as two to four hand-shaken washes, and it's quicker and much easier than shaking. I let it sit in a cold dark place with no air in the jar and wait until it separates out a bit. That is, the oil separates from a milky bottom layer and sits on top. When I deem it ready, I can siphon the cleaned oil, or freeze the bottom layer and pour the oil. I prefer to siphon not freeze. I wash it again then, and the amount of crystals varies from pressing batch to pressing batch. I wash 2-3 times until the crystals reduce right down. This of course, takes months on end, and I have left a few tidbits of info out. Then, if you sit the washed oil for years, yet more scum drops out of it that doesn't happen in unwashed oils in my experience. This can be reduced by dropping the washed oil into water which is just past simmering and giving it a gentle boil for a few hours. Let it settle a few days and much of the scum drops out and the oil stays cleaner and clear for years if stored well. My use of the term mucilage is pretty loose, and probably incorrect bad habit and confusing, but in part it includes the strange crystalline sludge i speak of. Impurities. My unwashed oils go rancid, but my husk/wash/boil combo I have never had go off. If I had more time, I'd look into distillation of the washed and boiled oil. Note when I say boil here, I do not mean boiled or HT oil. Finish made from washed oils has a different film quality to the unwashed oils in my application - to the naked and magnified eye, but I have not tested nearly all permutations - I am not completely crazy. If I was a wealthy squire I might just do it, though, but I'd offer some nerd chemist nee stockmaker the job while I tried to wear out all the good guns I could find caps and loading gear for. Making whiskey would be more fun.

So now I have my fully washed oil. Right or wrong - doesn't seem to harm it. Some of it then gets sun bleached. Some of it gets left as washed CPLO (base reference washed oil), and some I do indeed heat treat, to get a better polymerisation and lighter dry finish that doesn't yellow so much. I used to experiment with all the "likely" different permutations but that was then ago........stopped that when my sheds went down.

Very interesting Mr Groves is using heat treated walnut oil. I will be reading up on his walnut oil.

He is very probably right on the washing, I have thought the same, but I have not tried HT CPLO that has been made from unwashed oil. I have made Heat Treated (HT) from sun-bleached CPLO and that was fine stuff indeed, and from straight washed CPLO, and from walnut oil. I have tried several heat treats and some have been eye openers. So, where does the term "boiled linseed oil" has it's roots?

Hehe. Like I said, this is starting to get complicated. I have a headache trying to write what has become habit and I have probably omitted some important stuff. I believe I am NOT a full bottle on it, but my results have been encouraging at the great expense of time.

So why the hell do it? I wanted to reduce metallic dryers to a minimum. I wanted to get the purest, cleanest coat possible. An oil finish with a classy slightly glossy hue. It goes much deeper than that, because my oil based finishes are mostly oil/natural resin "varnish". These are not oil finshes to me, but traditional varnishes and outside your topic. I prefer that as a finish, to straight oil with dryers, for several reasons. But I still use drying oil finishes, and also several ways of filling pores. The reason is the variability of walnut. And then the complexity rises to whole new heights. I'm probably doing things wrong, or overdoing some things like the washing before HT. Also, if you want a true gloss and the customer won't pay for sanding way past 400 grit........ain't going to happen is my experience - yet more TIME.

It would perhaps be much simpler to experiment with some of Mr Groves oils, and maybe some varnishes, but whilst I think there is much to learn from the oil painters, I keep in mind we are also dealing with wood so recipes probably will not interchange well between the two fields (?). Still, the art community provides some info I have never seen written about in the gun books.

On the alkanet root comment of mine........I've been roasted for that in the past, but I have met more than one very good stocker who agreed. It's maybe worth a try if you can get the whole roots, but I'd also bet the quality of the ground stuff varies a lot and I haven't tried them all. I leave it sitting for as long as possible, shake and sit, no air and in the cold. I don't like red oil to set hard quick so the oil soaks into the wood well. Once that is done, I can harden it by several means including the finish oil. I don't see the point in trying to get more red through a previously hardened coat. I don't like boiling alkanet in turps, or extracting with alcohol - red oil is my choice.

There is some walnut I just will not oil finish, but much of that is not real good stock wood anyhow.

I'd better get to bed.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Juglansregia]
      #298447 - 05/04/17 07:35 AM

Walnut oil Gabe?

What about a bit of indigenous Macadamia nut oil...you never know!

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298457 - 05/04/17 10:21 AM

Hi gryphon,
walnut oil, mac'oil, olive oil, time for lunch!

I'm aware of walnut oil for wood finishing but have not tried it yet but the amber varnish I have is made with walnut oil and I have mixed that with linseed to rub on some of my offcuts. I am going to post about it soon. I just don't have the energy to make the post any quicker.

I trust juglans opinions and reports about it. That's what I mean by my previous comment that he knows more and has more experience with these finish's than me. I still have plenty to learn about linseed finishing and I don't know when or if I will be able to make stocks again so I have plenty of time to try other finish's.

Regards,
gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Juglansregia
.275 member


Reged: 20/04/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Tasmania
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298458 - 05/04/17 11:14 AM

Gabe,

If you run out and want a parcel of different offcuts to try out, I can post some up. I have access to some very high quality locally made CPLO, but posting from an island (sometimes air) might be a big old problem.

There was a fair bit of talk at one stage on the double gun forums about "slacum" and alkanet, some interesting reading in it and some reliable info in there.

A very, very good commercial gunstock finish maker is Trade Secret.........hard to get down under.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
TilleyMan
.333 member


Reged: 23/08/05
Posts: 272
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Juglansregia]
      #298460 - 05/04/17 11:22 AM

Quote:


A very, very good commercial gunstock finish maker is Trade Secret.........hard to get down under.




Uttings in the UK carry it... seems they make quite a range!

http://www.uttings.co.uk/p113501-trade-secret-oil-finish-kit-complete-sto-01-10/#.WORGTW997IU


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Juglansregia]
      #298463 - 05/04/17 11:38 AM

Hi Juglan's,

Thanks very much again for the further details. You say you have been challenged about your alkanet opinions but I can't see anything that was a waste of time. I don't think you should go to bed so early, keep working you lazy bugger!

You seem to be one those people who have unlimited energy. I probably won't go as far into the research as you have.

I am lucky we don't live close, you would probably keep me up too late experimenting. Another link for you, in case you have not seen it, about using an air pump to help wash the linseed. The pages are bit of a jumble but you will see the method. http://www.calcitesunoil.com/index.html

Re the alkanet I see you mean starting with the whole root, perhaps chopping pieces off it? I was thinking buying root pieces might be good, any unwanted debris might be easy enough to pick out.

Re the ph of the oil, the alkanet reacts to the oil's ph when you infuse it then there is a further reaction when you apply the red oil to the walnut. Were you trying to boost the reactions and improve the colour enhancement by modifying the oil's ph? I don't know enough about chemistry to make any suggestions.

Re a pure linseed stock finish, I don't actually want to use any pure linseed finish's. I don't think even the optimised linseed, by itself, will be hard enough to suit me. I have mixed some of the Groves amber varnish with my linseed and applied it to some offcuts.

I am posting something about that soon. Sorry I'm am so slow posting, I have slowed up a lot.

Re the Amber and hardest Copal resins, have you processed your own? I have read the various slightly vague info online about the process being difficult. Please let me know of any links you might have explaining a precise procedure, when you have time. At this stage I am experimenting with the Groves products. Kremer has raw Baltic Amber pieces, I thought I might try processing some myself one day.

Regards,
Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Juglansregia]
      #298464 - 05/04/17 12:27 PM

Quote:

Gabe,

If you run out and want a parcel of different offcuts to try out, I can post some up. I have access to some very high quality locally made CPLO, but posting from an island (sometimes air) might be a big old problem.

There was a fair bit of talk at one stage on the double gun forums about "slacum" and alkanet, some interesting reading in it and some reliable info in there.

A very, very good commercial gunstock finish maker is Trade Secret.........hard to get down under.




Thanks very much Juglans, I think I have plenty of walnut surfaces to work on. The basic finish I applied to the sides of my other blanks years ago has faded a lot on the side facing into the room. I think it was Liberon teak oil. So I can always sand some of them down and rub something else on. I also have enough forend blocks, for my 2 piece blanks, that I can use. But i'll certainly be in touch if I need some.

I would like some of the local high quality oil sometime. Do you mean oil from Tassie grown flax? I was wondering how it might compare to the Swedish oil. I'll email sometime about it. There are no shipping restrictions on pure wood oils. All my Swedish oils were shipped by mail and regular courier. The various pure oils I have bought in Australia also ship normally.

Livos Australia can ship their products by mail, even their thinners. So I would expect no prob's from Tassie but of course don't give the post office any more details than they need to know.

I don't think I want to do any oil washing but I'm happy to filter it with the husk if it needs more cleaning.

Re the Slacum and Alkanet postings elsewhere, that was great info, that helped start my own research. It was great of the old British gun finisher to post all that info. I was going to mention it when I post a bit about filling the pores in my main post. I have to be careful about posting direct links to another forum, the boss here might hit me with a big stick.

Yes Trade Secret finish, aware of it, thank you. Have not tried it yet. Uttings won't ship to Australia. But didn't know how good it might be. There are too many things To try!

Regards,
Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298466 - 05/04/17 12:57 PM

I have mates in the UK that would probably accept an order from Uttings then freight it to you Gabe

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Juglansregia
.275 member


Reged: 20/04/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Tasmania
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298471 - 05/04/17 02:15 PM

Gabe,

I used to have a bit of energy. Until I got crook. It's mellowed somewhat. It's amazing what some rest can do.

It will take me a few days to answer your last two posts, have much to do.

With the whole root, the bark that I have used with best success is very flaky, like a tough dry puff pastry. I just rub it off with an old stainless knife. Some is tougher and more persistant and I just hammer or break up the roots (the root system is smallish) and pry/scrape off the bark. Then I chop the tougher bark up with a small cleaver and just break it down to near dust with a mortar and pestle. I leave the root body behind and just take the bark, dirt and all. It comes away easy. I have seen so-called alkanet root for sale years back which looked a lot different so I held back. But maybe the plant is real. I suspect that it's hard to get nowadays because the bark can't be washed easily, and dirt would be a no-no with AQIS etc etc nowadays.I suppose with the ground root, they'd have to look pretty hard to see the dirt! I might see about getting some out of France via a specialist freight broker I know, but looking at the paperwork I have run by them in the past 3-4 years I don't fancy my chances.

I'll have to ask the local PO about the oil. Some of our mail leaves by air I'm told. That may create a problem if previous experiences from the UK are anything to go by. Yes, it is a local grown source. Very small production, but I'm told there are others here (?).

With the alkanet, the colours change with the pH. Refining and/or modifying of oils when making finishes can change the pH, so we have to bear that in mind. It needs storing in the dark, cold and dry best. It is not good when it comes to being light fast. Ditto red oil storage. This aspect sometimes makes me wonder why I bother with it. Some of the aniline dyes are very good, but they are not real healthy either. At the end of the day if you are getting good reds and holding them, you are onto a good thing. I don't think you could steep a red oil too strong, though.

I'll re-read your posts and maybe send an email so I don't clot your thread with waffle.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298476 - 05/04/17 04:39 PM

Quote:

I have mates in the UK that would probably accept an order from Uttings then freight it to you Gabe




Thanks very much gryphon. I'll get back to you sometime. I don't need it urgently as I don't have time to experiment with everything, but it will be something good to chase up sometime.

Sometimes aussie distributers pick up products like that. The CCL range has been available here a long time. That brand doesn't interest me however.

Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298480 - 05/04/17 05:23 PM

vipers bugloss is the same root as is used to do the alkanet powder and it grows wild up into the high country where I go hunting. It is not a large plant and I contemplated getting a few of the roots to try, but the moment passed as I wasn't sure what the process would be to turn it into a usable product.

http://www.luontoportti.com/suomi/en/kukkakasvit/alkanet

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: VonGruff]
      #298481 - 05/04/17 05:41 PM

I just read that link..my ex missus grew that in our garden and as the author says "and young leaves can also be chopped into salads or prepared like spinach." She used to feed the family with it also.
I never knew about the plant at all until the link.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298482 - 05/04/17 07:12 PM

Adding a bit more to my main post...

Some images of washed/bleached linseed here.
This image below some bleached linseed from Canada, the light colour when I received it. Made from Canadian cold pressed oil I believe.
[image][/image]

Then the same oil, changed colour after sitting on my shelf a few months.
[image][/image]

Then the Canadian oil with the Dictum cold bleached Swedish oil. The colour of the Dictum oil is unchanged since I received it.
[image][/image]

Then some heat processed linseed oil from James Groves, made from a good cold pressed flax oil without any washing, just his heat process. Link here to his linseed page. http://www.jamescgroves.com/linseedoils.htm

[image][/image]

All of these have remained transparent with no sediment settling out to the bottom.
The thick oil from Canada, with some Svalos thinner, felt a bit unusual to rub in. The oil from Canada cost a lot more and does not seem to offer anything extra to me so won't buy any more.

The drying time for all the oils I have posted has not varied a lot, all with 2 drops driers per 1/4 teaspoon. I didn't time the drying by the hour. I usually checked the offcuts morning and evening or day to day.

They all dried from 1-2 days. Sometimes the bleached oils took 3 days to dry. The humidity varies a lot here, from high to higher. That's why I have added driers to the initial coats of red oil on the Turkish walnut blank shown earlier, and many other finish's tried in the past.

Even with driers it still takes a long time to set, many hours, so I am still getting a lot of penetration into the walnut. Subsequent coats still penetrate into the wood.

The image below, some walnut off cuts used to test the drying rate of all the oils I purchased. A pale image. I'm not trying to show the finishing quality here, just explaining some testing procedure. I didn't try to achieve a perfect finish here. I used these to test only the oil's drying rate. These offcuts already had some old hard finish on them. After a light cutback I rubbed on thin coats of oil. The oil doesn't penetrate much this way and it is much easier to feel how the oil is drying.
[image][/image]



The drying rate is quite different when I mix Amber varnish into the linseed, for the pore filling and top coats. I'll take more images of the amber mix and applying it to some other offcuts here next.

Regards,
GABE

Edited by GABE93 (06/04/17 04:15 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298484 - 05/04/17 07:32 PM

Superb information from both of you. Well done and keep it coming. I think we can all learn a lot form these posts.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Juglansregia
.275 member


Reged: 20/04/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Tasmania
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: VonGruff]
      #298524 - 06/04/17 08:23 AM

Vipers Bugloss or blueweed Echium vulgare is not Alkanet. The alkanet used for red oil is the root from the plant Alkanna tinctoria

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Juglansregia]
      #298547 - 06/04/17 03:39 PM

Quote:

Vipers Bugloss or blueweed Echium vulgare is not Alkanet. The alkanet used for red oil is the root from the plant Alkanna tinctoria




Thanks Juglansregia. Pleased now that I didn't spend time and effort on a fruitless persuit.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: VonGruff]
      #298548 - 06/04/17 03:50 PM

Or should that be a 'fruitless root'

I have tried them in the pub btw lol!

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298557 - 06/04/17 07:22 PM

One point that we haven't discussed is how well the linseed oil finishes that both of you are brewing up actually wear when the gun is used. Are they durable, how do they handle rain, how do they handle sun, how do they handle perspiration etc.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #298566 - 06/04/17 11:45 PM

Hi W,

Don't rush me please, I'm not able to post everything in one hit! I did ask for patience at the start, as I have slowed up a lot, physically & mentally.

The next part of my post will be something about adding amber resin to some linseed oil and using that as the final coats of finish and something about filling pores without sanding between coats.
I don't have the info sitting here ready to post, I have to advance the work and take more images.

I started some offcuts last year with some amber and linseed mix and I intend to test those pieces with water, sweat, saliva & urine and various body fluids that I will extract from my neighbours puppy.

I don't have any test results yet as I purchased the amber and Swedish oils last year and took my time trying them on the offcuts.

In regards to a finish with linseed alone, I don't expect much from it re water resistance, durability etc. If I am able to make more gunstocks in future I don't think I will use linseed alone as the finish.

I have no intention of testing any of the offcuts in the sun. I did things like that a long time ago, the sun stuffs everything up after a good exposure.

As for juglansregia, he has tested and applied more oils to more gunstocks than I have, he might feel like offering some test reports, but he is very busy and doesn't need to be offering any reports.

Anyone else is also welcome to contribute about any linseed adventures they have had. Add in some images, they make for a better post.

Regards,
Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298592 - 07/04/17 08:05 AM

Gabe, not trying to make you rush, just getting a bit excited I guess. Between Junglans and yourself the posts have been very interesting and inspiring. The reason for the questions is that most articles that I have read in the past regarding Linseed oil have usually said that the finish looks great but does not wear all that well. Hence my question to you as you have done so much research with these oils.
I have a MS 1910 that I will be refinishing the stock on shortly and am now considering your method if it wears well enough.
As far as sun testing, I was referring more to how it reacts when being carried in the sun under normal hunting conditions rather than leaving it sitting in the sun for days on end.
By the way, I have ordered some of the Alkanet root powder which should arrive today or early next week. Should be good to see my wife's face when I ask her to buy me some Pantyhose.

Keep up the good work, really appreciated.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #298603 - 07/04/17 10:36 AM

Thanks W, that's fine. Understand the excitement for new info. I will do more on the post today and this weekend. If you need any extra details after reading the post's please ask.

For intermittent sun exposure during normal handling cured straight linseed and many other finish's seem to be fine. It's the rubbing & handling, with some sweat, and the various gun cleaning oils that wears through the straight linseeds I have tried.

Adding the various natural or synthetic resins to the linseed gives a finish that is more durable. You have a commercial version in the Rustins DO. The cleaner linseeds like the Swedish or the fully washed oils as per juglans work are also supposed to be less susceptible to mildew.

I am mixing the ingredients myself as I want to try the English style finish, with a good red oil first then filling and final polishing with the oil and resin mix.

Earlier this week I showed a local friend one of the offcuts with the amber mix on it. I quickly rubbed some spots with saliva, water and Svalos thinners and nothing marked it. I'll expand more on the amber in the post.

At this stage my mix still has a low ratio of the amber varnish in it. As the ratio of varnish increases it becomes an oil varnish, and is used more as a brushed finish, for musical instruments etc.

You might come up with your own variation. Perhaps try one of the Swedish linseed's I have tried and then the DO on top or try the complete finish all with red DO.

I would love to learn what professionals like Joel Dorleac use, he would have well established finishing procedures after so many years in the trade.

When you infuse the alkanet in the p'hose check the liquid is penetrating properly thru all the powder. When I tried it in a different filter bag the oil only wet the outside of the ball of powder and I could not get it to infuse properly, even by juggling the bag.

Regards,
Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298604 - 07/04/17 10:44 AM

Thanks Gabe, I will definitely try the DO with the Alkanet and see how it goes on some samples, and then I will give report. Unfortunately with these oil trials is that everything takes months to see real results. Thanks again.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #298736 - 08/04/17 04:37 PM

Gabe, I noticed in one of my books that Kurt Crum from the David Miller Rifle Company uses "Dalys Sea Fin Teak Oil". Have you ever tried that product or something like it, what are your thoughts.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #298751 - 08/04/17 06:53 PM

Yes W, I'm aware of Dalys finish's but have not seen them here in oz, so don't have an opinion. It would be another option to try if available. I imagine various stockmakers in the USA would use it. Is your book the nice one by Turpin, about the D.Miller company?

Check the links here..

http://www.customgunandrifle.com/gunsmithing-tips/stock-finishing. Wiebe also has alkanet in his products page.
http://www.dalyswoodfinishes.com/ read the specs pages and compare to Rustins DO. The Dalys Sea-Fin you mention is a marine type finish. Rustins has a different product for outdoors.

We could all go mad & broke worrying about which one might be the best, and experimenting with everything.

Regards,
Gabe93


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298753 - 08/04/17 06:57 PM

Yeah you are right Gabe,we could just use two pack poly floor sealer!

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Juglansregia
.275 member


Reged: 20/04/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Tasmania
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298899 - 12/04/17 11:02 AM

Gabe,

I have been so busy, no time to reply to your previous Q's yet.

For others I think the below link will explain a few things. Apologies if this information is very basic to some, but then I have not really seen the information out there in the gun community.

http://www.williamsburgartconservation.com/historic-varnishes-and-resi.html



http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/botany/gumresin.htm



http://www.woodshopnews.com/columns-blog...sh-is-paramount


https://books.google.com.au/books?id=90R...ish&f=false

None of the above provide all the info, but give some background. Not all applies to gun stock finishes, but with some background info we can start to understand what we need from a traditional gun stock finish.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Juglansregia]
      #298913 - 12/04/17 05:06 PM

Thanks very much for the links Juglans. One of them came up when i was googling the subject last year.

I will try to add to my post soon. I have done some more with the offcuts and taken more images but i'm battling some waves of fatigue lately.

Gabe93


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Juglansregia
.275 member


Reged: 20/04/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Tasmania
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298922 - 12/04/17 07:34 PM

Gabe,

No pressure from me. Rest up, look after yourself.

I think to get your drying times of each coat as quick as you have done, is a very fine achievement indeed in your climate.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Juglansregia]
      #299174 - 17/04/17 10:37 PM

Adding more to my post, sorry for the slow progress.
Some basic testing of surfaces rubbed with an amber varnish & linseed mixture. The Groves amber varnish is made with 50% Baltic amber, 50% walnut oil & a bit of gum turps. He makes several types of resin varnish. I'm trying the amber varnish as Baltic amber is the hardest/best natural resin. A link here to his amber info. http://www.jamescgroves.com/germanambervarnish.htm

[image][/image]

My first mixture was 20ml amber varnish, 20ml red linseed, 20ml clear linseed & 5ml svalos thinners. I didn't add any driers,wax,filler,alcohol,venice turps etc as you see in various old style linseed formulas. Each time I applied the finish I then added 2 drops driers to 1/4 teaspoon finish.

This first mixture has a lot more oil and a lot less driers than Groves recommends for violin varnishing. It was drying enough to advance the work in 24-36 hours. One time I placed one offcut in the sun for 2 hours and it dried a few hours faster.

In the images below some offcuts had 3-4 coats mixture rubbed very thin over a filled surface, with a nice lustre and no visible built up coating. A couple of offcuts I am still filling had no extra coats rubbed on top. None had any wax applied. [image]http://[/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image]

The images below, wiping the surfaces with thinners, sweat & water didn't cause any marks. Standing puddles of thinners didn't cause any marks. Standing puddles of water & sweat made spots on a couple offcuts, a hint of spots on a couple and on one offcut made no marks at all. [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image]

I want to achieve more reliable resistance to water marking so I will increase the amber varnish ratio.
My next mixture is 1/2oz amber varnish, 1/4oz red linseed, 1/4oz clear linseed. No thinners added to this bottle yet as I noticed some residue settling in the bottom of the first bottle so i have to test if it was due to the svalos thinners.
[image][/image] [image][/image]

The images below, i cut down the various surfaces a bit, to continue testing with the new mixture, using 1500g w/d paper, 0000steel wool and Dico synthetic wools.
[image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image]

I will continue the post tomorrow afternoon. I have to sort through more images for the next stage.

Continuing with the new mixture, some offcuts that were already filled, now polished more with rottenstone and the finish on a cloth pad, then the slurry wiped off completely. Then the surface palmed off more, and checking closely the surface doesn't have any grey haze at all from the rottenstone. I will do this a few times and build up the lustre then retest with water when I think the finish is fully cured.
[image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image]

Edited by GABE93 (18/04/17 05:24 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #299198 - 18/04/17 05:45 AM

Thats a lot of input Gabe and we all benefit from your knowledge.
Btw there are some snazzy off cuts in that lot too.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3954
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #299219 - 18/04/17 05:14 PM

Keep up the good work Gabe, slow & steady mate when you can get to it!
Don't go & blow a valve & overdo things hey!
Gryphon you hit the nail on the head there mate; certainly some brilliant off cuts there, but boy oh boy hasn't that timber been highlighted wonderfully!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: 93x64mm]
      #299221 - 18/04/17 06:46 PM

I still have the blank the last offcut above came from. I'll try to take an image of the blank and offcut together in good light and post it here. It's a very fancy but difficult blank to work with, due to warping, so perhaps viewing it might prompt some discussion.

I don't know if my experiment with the finish will be useful for me as I'm not likely to get back to gunmaking as a business. Perhaps I'm hoping i'll be able to get back to it as a hobby one day.

I'll continue the linseed post tomorrow. I have to write and sort some images about filling the pores on 2 of the offcuts.

Gabe

Edited by GABE93 (18/04/17 06:48 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #299224 - 18/04/17 07:54 PM

OK the next question is Gabe how much is the blank going to cost me?

Then another..how bad is the warping and is it surmountable?

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #299233 - 18/04/17 09:36 PM

gryphon,cheeky bugger, not trying to sell the blank. Just thought I could show it as you seemed to like the fancy offcut so much.

It's a long blank but due to the warp and another flaw it is only suitable for a 2 piece stock. But due to the length it has 2 forends, perfectly colour matched to the butt. It's wood I could hopefully use one day for a personal project, such as a Hagn action with 2 barrels.
Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #299247 - 19/04/17 05:02 AM

Well lets hope you get back to it and get the Hagn going.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #299269 - 19/04/17 07:05 PM

Continuing the post, some work below filling pores with rottenstone, trying a method that various chaps have suggested when doing the English style linseed finish. This method helps avoid a lot of wet sanding to fill the pores.

The offcuts below were prepared last year by dry sanding to 1500g, with the grain raised often with filtered water. The very fine sanding to 1500g or beyond, with high quality paper, helps bring out the best in figured walnut. It helps bring more depth and clarity to the finish.

When raising the grain between grits check very carefully for any larger scratch’s left by the previous grit. The dry sanding needs to be as good as possible when trying to achieve the best finish.

Then red linseed is applied. The amount required will vary from blank to blank. When applying the red oil check again very carefully for any missed scratch’s. The oil will show them up. To remove any scratch’s wet sand the area with the oil and the last grit paper used for the dry sanding. Then wipe off all the slurry. Of course it all takes a lot more time and on a stock all the sanding has to be co-ordinated very carefully with the metal edges.

I then let the red oil cure about 2 weeks then I started applying my first amber mixture with rottenstone and French chalk.

Now continuing the pore filling with my second mixture with extra amber varnish and rottenstone. I have added a few drops of svalos thinners and 2 drops driers to ¼ teaspoon finish. Not sure I like the French chalk so I’ll avoid that for now. A coat of finish is applied then after about 1/2hr I rubbed in rottenstone. Keep rubbing and the rottenstone is forced into the pores.

The correct amount of rottenstone will “disappear” into the pores and the general wood surface will become clear. You don’t want a slight grey haze over the wood surface. I can just manage this type of rubbing with my weaker hands & arms. Trying to do a complete stock now would be a nightmare.

The rottenstone needs to mix with the previously applied oil so that it darkens and bonds to the wood. I could have waited longer before rubbing in the r’stone. Using too much r’stone will leave the wood surface and pores too grey. If that happens dab a bit of finish on the wood and keep rubbing, perhaps wipe off a bit of the excess and keep rubbing till the wood clears and it looks smooth. If your palm gets too sticky to rub smoothly wipe the skin with the thinners then keep rubbing.

Then wipe the surface with a white napkin, to remove any tiny bit of grey stone residue or trace of oil. I started this bit of work about 5.45 pm one evening. After about I hr when I finished rubbing the offcuts I checked the bit of finish mix left over and it applied easily to the bit of dowel below. I rubbed the surfaces lightly after about 5 hrs and they seemed dry. I then left them overnight. With the current mixture a quick worker could do 2 applications on a stock each day. I think this second mixture would stay workable enough to rub a complete stock before gelling up too much.

Multiple applications of a small amount of finish and rottenstone gradually fills the pores. Rubbing the wood off smoothly after each application should minimize the need for any further sanding, but very fine sanding at some stage may help sometimes.

Then the next day about midday I rubbed the offcuts firmly across the grain with tissue and the surfaces felt quite dry, no smudging, and the dowel sanded lightly ok but didn’t sand to a powder yet.

So this second mixture with 1 part amber varnish to 1 part total linseed, with the driers, is drying quite well. I will continue building up the finish on these offcuts then when all are cured hard enough I will retest with water and report back the results.

[image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image]

This first attempt at this method of filling has turned out reasonable. In the hand I think the filler so far is still a little grey so i'll keep practicing. Very fine ebony dust made with fine sandpaper may help darken the rottenstone a bit more.

I think I also prefer this method of palming in the rottenstone filler, compared to wet sanding the filler into the wood.

I have a couple more things to add to the post soon.

Below another test of 2 different types of gum turps, smeared on some glass. Both leave a slight residue, hard to see here, after 1 day they felt the same, after a few days the Lukas turps felt harder. the Lukas website is very hard to research, they have different versions, but I did see somewhere that this one is double distilled and it is their best turps I believe. It's available from Senior Art Supplies here in Oz.

The Diamond G turps is single distilled but from rosin tapped from the best type of pine for gum turps. Google the name for their website. They also sell the raw pine rosin from which the turps can be distilled. A link here to distilling turps on the Groves website. http://www.jamescgroves.com/PINE.HTM

I am looking into which turps is the best as I am not sure if the citrus type thinners is the best for the amber varnish. I got something settling out in my first mixture of amber varnish and linseed that included some svalos thinners.

Dictum Germany has a double distilled turpentine oil they claim evaporates without leaving residue but they won't ship overseas as it is Haz goods.



[image][/image] [image][/image]

Another point about the amber varnish, it's an expensive product, even though the Groves amber was the best value I could find in an amber varnish, so no doubt I will try other resins at some stage.

An alternative would be to use an old style marine spar varnish mixed with the linseed, one made without polyurethane. One of the best I believe is the Epifanes brand.

Another option is to add a bit of pure tung oil to the mix, to see if that improves the water resistance. I will also try a commercial tung and resin product such as the Rustins and see how that works with the linseed and the English style method of pore filling.

In the image below I also have another amber mix that I have not tried yet, with 3/4oz amber to 1/2oz linseed. I mixed it to use the last of the amber in that bottle, adding the linseed will stop the smaller amount of amber varnish thickening too soon.
[image][/image]

Edited by GABE93 (20/04/17 06:24 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #299273 - 19/04/17 08:04 PM

Hi Gabe, sorry to take so long to get back, yes the information about Kurt Crum was from Tom Turpin's book. Interestingly Duane Wiebe also uses Seafin Teak Oil combined with Alkenet and Linseed oil. He also has some interesting tips.

http://www.customgunandrifle.com/gunsmithing-tips/stock-finishing

http://www.customgunandrifle.com/gunsmithing-tips/linseed-oil-alkenet-root-application


The first guns stock that I re-finished I tried a method as used by Sterling Davenport which briefly consisted of wet sanding using Tung Oil and sanding enough to produce a mud consisting of Tung Oil and saw dust to fill the pores. Successively finer paper is used until the all the pores are filled and then the wet sanding continues without producing any mud. There is obviously more to it than that but that was the basics. It worked really well and I still use the gun regularly, only wiping after use with a silicon cloth. The stock finish still looks excellent to this day.
I have thought about collecting the saw dust created while dry sanding and adding that to the oil while rubbing to seal the pores, it is something that I am to try.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #299304 - 20/04/17 06:11 AM

Gabe you keep rubbing like that mate and your arms will 'come back' I wish you the best with it all as Aus cant afford to lose your hands on skills.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3954
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #299306 - 20/04/17 06:27 AM

Quote:

Gabe you keep rubbing like that mate and your arms will 'come back' I wish you the best with it all as Aus cant afford to lose your hands on skills.



No one could have put it any better mate!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: 93x64mm]
      #299318 - 20/04/17 10:24 AM

Thanks chaps, I will have to practice the rubbing around a cheekpiece at some stage. Finishing flat offcuts is easier than finishing around a stepped cheekpiece.

I will post some images of the warped stock blank later today, just for general interest.

Regards,
Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #299320 - 20/04/17 10:37 AM

Quote:

Hi Gabe, sorry to take so long to get back, yes the information about Kurt Crum was from Tom Turpin's book. Interestingly Duane Wiebe also uses Seafin Teak Oil combined with Alkenet and Linseed oil. He also has some interesting tips.

http://www.customgunandrifle.com/gunsmithing-tips/stock-finishing

http://www.customgunandrifle.com/gunsmithing-tips/linseed-oil-alkenet-root-application


The first guns stock that I re-finished I tried a method as used by Sterling Davenport which briefly consisted of wet sanding using Tung Oil and sanding enough to produce a mud consisting of Tung Oil and saw dust to fill the pores. Successively finer paper is used until the all the pores are filled and then the wet sanding continues without producing any mud. There is obviously more to it than that but that was the basics. It worked really well and I still use the gun regularly, only wiping after use with a silicon cloth. The stock finish still looks excellent to this day.
I have thought about collecting the saw dust created while dry sanding and adding that to the oil while rubbing to seal the pores, it is something that I am to try.

Waidmannsheil.




Thanks W,

If the wet sanding method works well for you keep using it. I have used wet sanding and other methods for many years. I wanted to try the English style method, with less wet sanding, for a change.

I have the book by Jack Mitchell describing Davenports method. The nice book by David Wesbrook also has various finishing methods.

Regards,
Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #299322 - 20/04/17 10:58 AM

Quote:



I will post some images of the warped stock blank later today, just for general interest.

Regards,
Gabe




You mean Gryph`s stock blank

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
MeLLeR
.224 member


Reged: 04/11/15
Posts: 5
Loc: QLD, Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #304385 - 23/08/17 12:27 AM

Reviving this thread firstly to thank Gabe for all the effort he has taken to pass this info along, as well as the input from JR. Very valuable and results in more hand scribbled pages being added to my expanding notes on stockmaking info.

Also needed to actually reply to this thread to make it easier to find again for referencing later! Took me a long time with many thread distractions along the way to find the exact link I was looking for this time!!

Gabe, I might even actually bring this current mauser stock it for critiquing asI believe it's my best work to date.

Edited by MeLLeR (23/08/17 12:30 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: MeLLeR]
      #304409 - 23/08/17 06:41 PM

Quote:

Reviving this thread firstly to thank Gabe for all the effort he has taken to pass this info along, as well as the input from JR. Very valuable and results in more hand scribbled pages being added to my expanding notes on stockmaking info.

Also needed to actually reply to this thread to make it easier to find again for referencing later! Took me a long time with many thread distractions along the way to find the exact link I was looking for this time!!

Gabe, I might even actually bring this current mauser stock it for critiquing asI believe it's my best work to date.




+1

Regards
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39062
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Homer]
      #304419 - 23/08/17 08:25 PM

I must save all the photos to the NE server. I see Gabe DOES have them on photobucket but obviously is paying for an account. Need to be saved just in case though for the future.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
paradox_
.375 member


Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 645
Loc: Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: NitroX]
      #304458 - 24/08/17 06:15 PM

Nitro, thank you for that.....how do we find the link to all of gabe hard work please.

Best
Eric

--------------------
Walk softly and carry a big stick


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GABE93
.275 member


Reged: 01/03/17
Posts: 73
Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: paradox_]
      #304461 - 24/08/17 06:30 PM

Sorry I have not updated this thread for a while. I have been too tired. I did start a bit more rubbing with more amber resin ratio in the linseed mixture but have not continued it for a while now.

This morning I bought some Rustins Danish oil, from a mobile van visiting here for a couple of days. SE QLD Woodworkers Supplies has a van that travels around selling gear. I’ll try the Rustins one day. Other members here mentioned earlier in this thread that it works well for them.

I can also buy locally one of the high quality old style marine spar varnish’s so I intend to also try that mixed with the linseed as it could give a tougher mixture than the amber resin.

Meller, as I have mentioned in the past, show me your work whenever you get the chance. I can’t see enough in the images on your phone to critique it well.

Yes NitroX, I have the images in my PB account and I’m paying for their basic account, I think about $15 or $20 PA. I could not tolerate the adverts intruding in the free account. I noticed lately members having trouble viewing posted images from P Bucket. I can still see the full post here, all the images, using Internet Explorer.

I need however to continue my thread a bit more so that I can test which resin and mixture gives a tougher linseed finish.

I also have not forgotten I promised to post some images of one of my finished rifles. It will take a long time to compose the post.

Regards,
Gabe93


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rino
.300 member


Reged: 13/01/07
Posts: 101
Loc: Norway/South-Africa
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #304520 - 26/08/17 10:59 AM

This thread is pure inspiration.
Thanks a million times for sharing your knowledge!

--------------------
Alf Rino Hals


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Juglansregia
.275 member


Reged: 20/04/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Tasmania
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #329305 - 12/06/19 11:15 AM

I thought I'd revive this old thread with some personal findings.

I tried the Rustins product mentioned above. It took a while to adapt to it, as it dries very quickly making it a little more difficult to rub out than I am used to. In the end I was extremely impressed with the finishes obtained so far as looks are concerned, but ultimately the product was a disappointment for me. I found it water-spots badly. Not as bad as CCL, but badly. It can be touched up, but is not an easy finish to do so. For a safe queen it might be OK, but for folk who actually take a gun or rifle out in the rain I can only foresee great angst using this product.

Note, if the Rustins finish gets wet and is wiped down continually, it won't water-spot. If a rain droplet sits on there for say 15-30 mins, it'll often water spot. Continually having to wipe down a stock is just not practical. I tried two cans, two different production batches, same results. I tried the finish on the sides of 4 dozen walnut blanks sanded to 400 grit, and two finished stocks. All watermarked, despite an evolution of finishing techniques with the stuff.

On another note, I found Rustins slightly kills the colours and life in contrasting walnut, but not as badly as some finishes.

You have to be careful......In the past I tried Liberon Superior Danish Oil and found it sometimes blackened with UV exposure. That stuff is not cheap......wound up looking like sump oil. It also tends to darken the wood unduly even if it doesn't turn it a sump oil colour.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Igorrock
.400 member


Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1635
Loc: Finland
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Juglansregia]
      #329321 - 13/06/19 04:10 AM

It´s interesting to read yours comments of Rustins' Danish Oil. I have used it more than a decade with all my gun stocks without any problem. With my impegrate system I don´t rub away any oil but just add a new thin layer untill the surface has dried thoroughly and looks like it has been lacquered. Normaly it takes several weeks, often more than one month. I have used my rifles in whole rainy day without any problem. Rustins´seems to have several different oil products but I have used this:



--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Juglansregia
.275 member


Reged: 20/04/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Tasmania
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Igorrock]
      #329334 - 13/06/19 09:54 AM

Igorrock,

Thanks for your response. I was surprised also, at the water-spotting. I thought perhaps I got a bad batch, so tried another tin of it, same results.

After pore filling, to build up the final finish I was hand rubbing Rustins with lint-free fine quality cotton dress shirt material stretched over my index finger. I wore a neoprene glove which has never affected any other finish, the ones I use are fairly resistant to most solvents. I tried other methods but this worked best for me. This finish being very thin, and setting up quickly, the only real option for me was to rub out small amounts in sections until an even, very thin coat is obtained - barely a coat, and it must be accomplished before it tacks too much. In summer in the climate I live in, I can re-coat Rustins every 18-24hrs, once humidity rises I must use a drying cabinet. I found it took 10+ coats to build a nice finish with a very fine skin "on the wood". I can also make comment that the product has poor penetration into the wood - but this is true of most finishes. So really, a fine skin is needed for any realistic protection. The trick is getting a finish that is actually a thin film/skin, but still looks "in the wood". I initially tried a heavier coating method, and got very poor results. For me I found Rustins needed very little finish applied, and had to be rubbed out just right.

It is a very, very nice looking finish, but in my experience a poor performer in rain. Perhaps waxing the stock would prevent this problem, but I want the finish to be able to stand alone. I cannot explain our very different results, except to say it doesn't surprise me. I've noticed different people sometimes get very different results with the same stock finish, and while it ought not to affect a products performance in the rain, I suppose it's possible variation in application technique can do just that.

I've tried a lot of different snake oils, and for me the best have been ones I've developed myself from old recipes. Of the store bought stuff, Minwax has been the best for me, by far - but I haven't tried them all. Easy to apply, easy to get a good finish, film hardness and abrasion resistance superb, finish colour good, except for the matte finish type. Now not available in Oz. I can also relate that Rustins is easier to mark/scratch than any of the Minwax products I've used, but then Rustins is also harder than some others.

I suppose the best plan is for each person to try several products, understand the MSDS, and use what works best for them.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Igorrock
.400 member


Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1635
Loc: Finland
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Juglansregia]
      #329338 - 13/06/19 05:29 PM

Quote:

So really, a fine skin is needed for any realistic protection. The trick is getting a finish that is actually a thin film/skin, but still looks "in the wood". I initially tried a heavier coating method, and got very poor results. For me I found Rustins needed very little finish applied, and had to be rubbed out just right.



It seems that you do just opposite way like I do. This heavier coats method needs, as I soon wrote, much time and patience. With that method ready surface looks like made by varnish but it´s not slippery in any way. If wood is very dense, you could just dilute oil for first two coatings.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BillG500
.300 member


Reged: 16/10/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Australia
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Igorrock]
      #329367 - 14/06/19 09:45 AM

Cheers for bringing this back up Gordon, it a good read.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Juglansregia
.275 member


Reged: 20/04/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Tasmania
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Igorrock]
      #329368 - 14/06/19 10:27 AM

I initially sealed with Rustins DO thinned 20% with white spirit before filling pores using RDO, slopped on inside and out liberally and for a long time. After this was dry enough pore filling was accomplished by wet sanding and adding some gloop Mr Waghorn gave me years ago (rottenstone is commonly used). Surface when dry then cut back almost to bare wood and finish coats applied as per my previous post. Penetration into the wood, typical of this kind of finish, is actually pretty poor. The finish tacks and hardens in good walnut before any meaningful penetration occurs. I suppose if a stock is made from soft, porous (shitful) walnut then penetration will be more impressive. I prefer good stock wood however. I reckon from experience, if you want one of these finishes to penetrate deeply, try vac bagging or soaking the stock in a pressure vessel under a partial vaccum to suck the finish in before it starts to harden. If you doubt this, scrape back your finish and see just how quickly raw wood appears. If the finish or sealer is thinner and hardens slowly, then of course it'll penetrate a bit deeper. Or use a compatible oil that dries very slowly as a base coat to nourish the wood, provided the pore filling and finish coats will harden and bond with it.

I suppose, at the end of the day, I'm just not a fan of thick, built up coatings on stocks no matter how nicely done they are. IMO for a built up film finish, for me Tru Oil is far easier to apply than Rustins, and a bit tougher. In the context of this thread, which was supposed to be about traditional Linseed stock finishes, Rustins is about as much an "oil" finish as Tru Oil. Applied in thicker coatings, it looks almost identical to Tru Oil. Pretty garish unless get back.

If you looks at the Rustins site under Our Products, they make a clear distinction between Indoor Wood Finishes and Outdoor Wood Finishes that they offer. Rustins Danish oil is clearly listed as an indoor product, not an outdoor one. Whilst the advertising blurb lists that the product can be used on outdoor woodwork, I think the manufacturers classification speaks volumes. If it truly held up to outdoor use, they'd be promoting it e.g. for wooden boat use. Rustins Product Data Sheet also states nothing at all about exterior woodwork compatibility, only indoor use. That ought to tell folk something. As far as goodies in the brew, RDO Info and SDS sheet states it has some vegetable oil in it, mainly Tung oil, but it is modified with synthetic resins and driers (looks like cobalt driers), 44.170% petroleum based thinners with a dash of MEK for good measure.

Like most of it's brethren of Scandinavian, Teak, Danish etc "oils"........there is some oil in there somewhere, but essentially they are "modern synthetic varnishes" of one type or another. Alkyd, phenolic, urethane etc.

Decades-old technology: when a natural vegetable oil is heated with a chosen synthetic resin (eg alkyd, urethane, phenolic) the oil and synthetic resins combine to produce a new product. Essentially, modern varnishes. These ratios are manipulated by industrial chemists to vary the performance of the varnish. Typically "long oil" varnishes have 50-100 gallons of oil for every 100 pounds of synthetic resin mixed with it. These are the greatest oil content. Medium oil varnishes have 12-40 gallons of oil per 100 lb resin, and short oil varnishes less again. Spar varnishes are long oil varnishes, without added driers they are very slow to dry but are flexible, although fairly soft. The resin used is important, particularly for outdoor use. Oils used also affect appearance and performance. The "varnish" is then thinned, most often with petrochemical thinners, and often metallic driers are used so the brew hardens in a timely fashion. Nearly all of the commercially available "oil" finishes fall into this category. The huge VOC content of these finish types is becoming an increasing problem with various govt regulations for such.

http://antiquerestorers.com/Articles/SAL/varnish.htm

I think the original intent of this thread was to demonstrate an exploration of more traditional varnishes, ie those which do not use synthetic resins, metallic driers, and petrochemical thinners. When it comes to traditional varnishes, there are two basic categories, spirit based and oil based. Whilst many vintage guns have been finishes originally with finishes that contained some metallic dryers, it's also true that many were not. Some fine finishes can be built up with traditional varnishes, and in my experience their performance in the field can equal or exceed many of the modern products all things considered. I've got nothing against either type of finish (modern vs traditional or anything in between), but most off the shelf products are just NOT genuine oil finishes or anything like it, in my eyes.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >> (show all)



Extra information
0 registered and 46 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:   

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 29479

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved