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Luckydog
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Loc: Huntin' In Colorado
Maximum Range?
      #99807 - 21/03/08 04:42 AM

What is your maximum range on elk and moose size game with factory loaded 375 H&H? After shooting mine at the range a few times, I think I feel comfortable out to 250 yards.

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szihn
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: Luckydog]
      #99809 - 21/03/08 05:05 AM

Max range for any practical weapon is the range you can put 4 out of 5 shots into a 6" target.
So Max Range varies according to conditions. Power has something to do with things too, but most hunting rifles have enough to get the job done The 375 H&H has WAAAAY more range than most men can use.
So it's mostly all about the man, not the weapon.

I once killed a moose Waaaaaaaaay out there, with a 375 H&H, but I had a perfect set-up and I used to shoot 1000 yd matches a lot, so I knew I would hit him, and I did.

I have guided hunters in the past who owned rifles set up for long range, who's max range was about 25 yds. I also know a man in Nevada who can (and does) kill deer on a regular basis at 350 to 500 yds with an iron sighted rifle, and as of 2 years ago, he's yet to miss one. He's in his 50s now, and he's been hunting since he was about 10.

As in most thing in this world, it's 98% the man and 2% what he's using.

Edited by szihn (21/03/08 05:10 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: szihn]
      #99811 - 21/03/08 05:41 AM

Spot-on, Steve and Luckydog - one must know one's limitations & self-imposed practical limits.
; I feel a certain respect for the big game animals I hunt, and feel anything over about 300 yards is too far. Too much can go wrong when hunting and usually does, especially on moose in the bush - across ponds, cut-blocks and such. Intervening underbrush that is unnoticed, a quick stride forward or sideways at the instant the trigger breaks all makes for poor hits which otherwise would have been perfect. A moose moves about 4' in one step - if that happens as the trigger breaks, your 270 or 300gr. aimed at the shoulder just hit him in the butt or guts. The longer the range, the worse the hit. 300yards is pretty easy, even with irons - if one practises with them. Even my little m94 .375 Winchester is certain at 300 meters at the range, every shot on the ram silhouette, but past 200 meters, I cannot be certain of a hit within 3-4" of my aiming point with it's irons and would refuse anything further - with that rifle and it's sights.
; Most all .27 and larger calibres have enough power to properly kill moose or elk at 300 yards or further with perfect hits. There is just too much chance of something going wrong to make longer shots - movement or obstructions - your's or the animals.
; I said I would refuse anything further & that's the truth - whole truth be known, Only once did I shoot beyond 100 yards on moose, long time ago, and now, moose elk, bear or deer are all taken inside 100 yards. I'm in the bush to hunt, not to plink at long range like I do in the gopher fields. If you truley hunt, revel in getting close - there is an enormous satisfaction in the hunt - little in simply killing, which is what long range sniping amounts to - it isn't hunting in my opinion - more of a dirty trick on the animal. Sorry if that raises hackles.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Luckydog
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: szihn]
      #99812 - 21/03/08 05:42 AM

From looking at Remingtons ballistic charts, it seems there is a drastic drop in the trajectory at 300+ yards, when your zeroed at 200 yards, with a 270 grain bullet.

http://www.remington.com/products/ammuni...=R375M1*RS375MA

250- drops 4.6"
300- drops 9.7"
400- drops 28.7"
500- drops 59.8"

So I guess my question is, do people really have the set ups to compensate for a 60" bullet drop? Does their reloaded ammo make that much of a difference from factory ammo? What kind of scope would you use for a shot like that? I'm not being a smartass, I really would like to know. I have never been a long range shooter, but I would like to learn. I would sure like to see a pic of a 375H&H set up to make those kind of shots. Maybe it's not the set up, maybe it's just practice. I know I'm not capable of those shots. Thanks Bryan

Edit- I should add, my last 3 elk and 1 deer, have all been 50 yards or less. I also prefer to be as close as possible!

Edited by Luckydog (21/03/08 05:48 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: Luckydog]
      #99817 - 21/03/08 06:14 AM

Like I said - 300 yards is easy, even on deer - if you have the capability at that range, from hunting positions.
; I don't believe anyone should be shooting at our big game any further. Too often - "ran off without even flinching - missed him, I guess". Then, there is no followup and even if they did go to the impact site, with the angle of the bullet and range, there probably isn't an exit wound, therefore no blood trail and few who would take such a shot are likely to trail it for even 50 yards, let alone further.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: DarylS]
      #99834 - 21/03/08 08:14 AM

No Offence is taken Daryl. I agree with you!
I only stated the facts. I am older now. When I made that shot I was on leave from the USMC and I was shooting LOOOONG range all the time.
An accurate 375 with proper bullets is actually better in every way (if the man is up to the task) then the 7.62 (308 Winchester) we used to shoot in our M-40s I knew that I could make that shot. I did it. I won't do it again. I guess I have grown up some.

Edited by szihn (24/03/08 10:54 AM)

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allenday
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: Luckydog]
      #99905 - 22/03/08 12:43 AM

I've made a couple of shots at close to 300 yds. with a 375 H&H loaded with 300 gr. Trophy-Bonded bullets (zeroed for 200 yds.), and once at that distance with a 270 gr. Fail-Safe ammo zeroed for 200 yds., but that's about as far as I'd ever care to shoot with that cartridge and those loads.

The numbers speak for themselves. After 300 yards the trajectory really begins to curve, so the best plan is to either stalk closer (old-fashioned, novel idea!) or else forget about shots past 275-300 yards altogether...........

AD

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9.3x57
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: allenday]
      #99908 - 22/03/08 01:03 AM

Great points, fellows.

My $.02:

Trajectory is not the issue. Rangefinders and ballistic tables in conjunction with alot of range time can reduce the trajectory issue to a computation.

Hunter skill in making field shots and, most importantly, even for very experienced shooters, WIND are the bugbears. Fitness and breath control here in the mountains is a HUGE issue for everybody, particularly for urbanites and flatlanders who spend only the hunting season in the field. All the range skill in the world evaporates when a several-mile, 1000 foot elevation hike sucks it right out of a fellow's lungs.

Wind has a more significant effect on bullets than does trajectory because in the field it cannot be merely reduced to a computation. I used to have a 4x4 sheet of plywood I used for a demonstration. Shooting at 400 meters with a very accurate No4 MKI Lee-Enfield .303, shots literally strung across the board horizontally. Elevation deviation was about 6 inches, windage a bit less than 3 feet, and this over a relatively short distance compared to what some say they shoot at regularly on deer.

I shoot pretty regularly on my range at 200 yards, and that is why I try to keep my shots under 100.

There are places on my ranch where I will shoot deer at 150-250 meters and I have killed them at 300. This under what can only be described as virtually "benchrest" conditions. Elsewhere in areas where I cannot estimate distance I shoot well inside the point-blank range of the rifle, almost exclusively under 150 though most of my elk have been killed over 100 and my deer at around 100 or a bit less. Longest shot I have ever made with my .375 was on a small deer at 270 stretched-out paces many years ago. I do not try shots I am not 100% certain of anymore. Call it wisdom, call it lack of courage to try. Either one is fine by me.

There are fellows who because of where they live and their skill in the field regularly kill deer-sized game at over 300 yards. I am not one of them.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Luckydog
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99971 - 22/03/08 12:50 PM

After looking at the ballistic charts again, and reading what you guys have to say, I think I'll just try to become VERY accurate out to 300 yards, and call it good!!!!

Thanks Again Bryan

--------------------
Make Sure You Vote, And Make Sure Your Friends Vote!!

When they outlaw guns...I'll be an outlaw! Reese

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hoppdoc
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99981 - 22/03/08 06:53 PM

Aww!! come on guys---

300 yds with a quality high powered deer rifle is duck soup with practice from a proper rest!!!

I have shot many times out to 450 yds(150% further!!)in proper conditions with a flat trajectory rifle like a 300 ultramag and hammered game!!
I could take you out with a laser range finder in proper conditions with a Swarovski TDS scope and you would be amazed at how well you shoot!!Leupold has a similar set up with their Boone and Crockett scopes--

No, you should absolutely NOT hold "over hair" and shoot at that distance--you need optical aids and a range finder or all bets are off!!

I would agree that the 375 H&H shouldn't be shoot past 250 yds--the trajectory over sequential 50 yd increments is like a falling rock. You would need to know the exact distance and ballistics to have success on further shots.Personally even with a range finder and optical aids like TDS,I would'nt try it on game.Can you hit with a rainbow trajectory? Of course!! Sharps shooters(45-70,etc)Do it all the time!!

Me?? I want better trajectory to ensure a higher probability of a hit with proper shot placement.That can be done much further than 300 yds with certain cartridges/rifles!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (22/03/08 06:57 PM)

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allenday
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: Luckydog]
      #99992 - 22/03/08 11:22 PM

Do you know what Jack O'Connor said about long-range shooting?

He said that the "distances increase after they've been processed through a typewriter".............

AD

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Luckydog
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: allenday]
      #99997 - 22/03/08 11:44 PM

I've killed a lot of big game in Colorado with my 300RUM, but every animal was less than 100 yards. A couple of elk I killed were less than 30 yards. If you look at the ballistics on the 300RUM a 180 grain is dropping a 12" at 400 yards and over 25" at 500 yards. I think to make those kind of shots would take more time practicing and more money for ammo than I can afford. I know I can be effective to 250 yards with my 375H&H, 300 yards with my .270, and 350 with my 300 RUM.

--------------------
Make Sure You Vote, And Make Sure Your Friends Vote!!

When they outlaw guns...I'll be an outlaw! Reese

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hoppdoc
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: allenday]
      #100039 - 23/03/08 09:45 AM

Do you know what Jack O'Connor said about long-range shooting?

He said that the "distances increase after they've been processed through a typewriter".............

AD

No doubt many probably feel my statements sound like cock 'n bull cyberspace BS as well--
Such shots actually happened-- I have witnesses-Whether I could do these shots without an optilogic range finder and a custom reticle is doubtful.With a standard reticle I doubt I would try to shoot past 300 yds.The distance and trajectory are that important!!

Prove it to yourself--get a range finder and a scope with such a reticle and practice, practice--You may be very impressed!! The truth is what it is!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Tatume
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #100042 - 23/03/08 10:01 AM

There is no question that long-range shots on game are possible. Every shot has a probability of success, but 100% is not possible to achieve, even on very short shots. Each of us must gauge the risk of a wounding shot, and our own tolerance for that risk. The decision to shoot is a very personal one, and ultimately we will be our own judges.

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Nakihunter
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #100043 - 23/03/08 10:07 AM

I was out with a friend checking rifles out to 500 yards yesterday. Barry shot his 7mm WSM & was getting good groups of 4" to 6" out to 500 yds . We were using range finder & Leupold B&C reticle scopes. My Kimber 7mm08 was fine out to 300 yds with groups of 5" to 6". At 400 yds I couldn't hold steady off my pack (field shooting position) & was grouping about 12" but around the bull's eye. At 500 yds I missed the paper! I did better with my 280 Ackley Imp & would take a clean broad side shot at 400 yds if it is not too windy.

My 9.3X62 was perfect at 200 yds with a group of 3". I am confident out to 300 yds with that rifle.

My conclusion is that each hunter needs to know his or her limitations in shooting ability & on the limitation of the rifle being used. Barry is one of the best shots I have seen. At 50+ years old, he still does not use spectacles & his eyesight is incredible in picking game in the bush at long range.

I consider myself to be above average as a shot but I am not consistent. On some days I win at club shoots & on others I am just average. Thankfully I haven't had a real bad day for many years (as I do my preparations of rifle, scope & ammo before going to the range or on a hunt).

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Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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9.3x57
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #100050 - 23/03/08 10:59 AM

Quote:

My conclusion is that each hunter needs to know his or her limitations in shooting ability & on the limitation of the rifle being used.



Naki, your conclusion is right. And bravo for shooting from a field position!! I, too was at my range today. Mostly shooting at 200 yards, I also was doing some work with a rifle which I will post elsewhere. We shoot from every cockamamy position we can conjure up before season. Most of our work is from sitting on the ground or on a tire though. And standing at shorter ranges, like just far enough that we don't knock the target down with the muzzle of the barrel...

Anyway, I remembered this thread and thought I'd show those who have never shot at over 100 or so what 420 yards looks like to a 140 grain Prvi Partizan bullet fired from my CZ550FS at about 2650 fps and fighting a puffing righthand breeze.

Here it is.

First the target. Three shots at 420 yards from the bench, but holding the rifle and firing off my elbows, sort of like what a fellow might have in a constructed deer blind. The group is pretty good, heh? 3 1/8 inches center-to-center of the farthest shots. I did not fire sighters, just sat down, guessed the wind and started at it. I should add that I know my place and thus already know the range and I guesstimated where to hold based on the tables in my old Hornady reloading book. I hadn't yet fired this rifle at this range with this load.



Now for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Here is my point of aim. Yup, 30 inches high and 9 inches to the right of the aiming point, and the group still fell low.



The load and rifle are good. Sure, with range work and NO WIND and good computations and a rangefinder and a steady rest and NO WIND and a good day and NO WIND and a happy wife to come home to a guy in the field can kill deer at something like 420 yards. But not me. My wife is always happy, but as for the rest of the requirements, they just don't seem to fall together as ordered and thus I steer clear of such shots except for coyotes which are critters I will take a shot at no matter the consequences as I don't care if I wound them. But for noble game, not a chance.

Certainly to each his own.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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chuck375
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #100102 - 24/03/08 02:03 AM

Excellent post 9ThreeFifty7. I have shot a .270 loading 150g Noslers to 3000 fps (hot load for most rifles, fine in mine). Sighting in at 2.5" high at 200 yards, it's dead on at 300 yards, then I use the 1', 2', 4' rule for 400,500 and 600 yards. The longest I've killed an elk at is 450 yards, deer just under 400 yards. In both cases neglible wind, very little elevation change (which screws me up more than wind) and a solid rest (over a fallen tree or a rock, cushioned by my hand). It's a rifle I've had for 30 years and put well over 5000 rounds through (on it's second barrel now). Elk are large animals so a 400 yard shot is not difficult in good conditions. I think I will limit my 375 H&H to 400 yards and under, based on two things. I doubt I will put 1000 rounds a year through it, like I did my .270 when I was in my 20s. I do plan to put 500 rounds through it this year. Second it's trajectory makes reaching out more difficult, though a 250g Swift A-Frame moving at 2800 fps shoots pretty flat.

Regards,
Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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9.3x57
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: chuck375]
      #100115 - 24/03/08 05:55 AM

There is no doubt in my mind that there are guys who can and do effectively and regularly, and ethically kill elk at 400 yards. I do not want to sound like I am saying it can't be done, or sound like I am saying there isn't anybody frequenting this forum that can do it.

My point is to the many more who may be limited to a 100 yard public range or who don't have an opportunity to shoot at long range and thus really learn what it entails and yet who may think that long range hunting is merely a factor of buying the right gadgets, chronographing their loads, rangefinding and computing the distance. Oh, yeah, then breaking the trigger.

The long range competitors here can pipe up and give examples of what wind does to a bullet, but here we see an example of it on a day when the breeze was noticeable but not severe. And remember, the bullet that matters most is the first one. In the field, judging wind is very difficult.

One last point. Most fellows I have seen at the range believe they have a good zero of whatever height above POA at say, 100. But any deviation to center of impact laterally will grow with range. This is particularly so in the direction of twist. Twist will cause the bullet to drift slightly. But a rifle with a zero that includes an inch right or left of center will add more deviation to the impact at extended ranges.

Bottom line is that a fellow who only has access to a 100 yard range cannot merely buy a bunch of gizmos and go kill a deer at 400. It might work, or he might wound {possibly unknowingly} a number of critters before one falls-down-go-boom to stay.

I shoot enough at 200 to try my best to do my hunting at 100, or less.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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chuck375
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #100117 - 24/03/08 06:31 AM

Good advice as always

Respectfully,

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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Luckydog
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: chuck375]
      #100119 - 24/03/08 07:58 AM

Just got back from Bass Pro Shop. I got a nice pair of Redhead hunting boots. I also looked at Leupold Boone & Crocket scopes, Nikon ballistic scopes, and Burris ballistic scopes. I have been looking for a 200 to 400 yard range to start practicing at longer ranges. There just aren't very many around Denver. I've came to the conclusion that i am just going to have to join a club if I am going to get to practice at those ranges. I'm going to look on the internet and ask around until I can find a long range club that is affordable enough and that is close enough that it makes sense joining.

Chuck, do you know any places around the Denver area?

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Make Sure You Vote, And Make Sure Your Friends Vote!!

When they outlaw guns...I'll be an outlaw! Reese

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hoppdoc
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: Luckydog]
      #100120 - 24/03/08 09:15 AM

I would suggest that if you are serious about 400+ yd shooting--get a range finder with a distance uphill/downhill correction.Optilogic makes this kind of rangefinder and others do too.

If you do not correct for uphill/downhill angles at diatance the bullet will always shoot high for distance.Its that critical.A 15 degree angle can make a rifle shoot 2 inches high at 450 yds.

If you know the ballistic compensation for the rifle/scope combo you are getting close--The only thing left to screw you up is the wind!! It can be blowing one way where you are and the other way where the animal stands. At a measely 5 mph it can move a high BC bullet 7 inches @450 yds.If there is ANY wind noticable in the scope around the animal-DON'T SHOOT!!

Optical aids don't compensate for technique and rifle quality-practice, a good rifle with a good trigger,and a proper distance compensating scope matter more than most will admit.You have to do it regularly to get confidence--

Still its great to shoot under proper conditions and hear the SMACK of the bullet hitting the animal!!It is very doable with practice and reasonable judgement.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (24/03/08 09:17 AM)

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Tatume
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: Luckydog]
      #100121 - 24/03/08 09:21 AM

You should consider high-power rifle competition, especially on military facilities (longer ranges). Granted, it's not what you're really looking for, but it may be the best you'll find for long-range practice. And it is good practice. Further, you'll find the comraderie outstanding, and folks will help you develop your skills. When you learn to read wind and light, and improve your scores, you'll find that much of what you learn transfers well to the game fields.

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chuck375
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: Tatume]
      #100139 - 24/03/08 12:44 PM

Lucky, sorry I don't. I belong to the Frontier Gun Club in Colorado Springs, we have a 600 yard range. A long walk to the target lol. Our range is South of Colorado Springs South East of Security Colorado. As far as that whole shooting uphill/downhill thing it screws me up. If the winds blowing hard or it's an uphill or downhill shot I won't go past 250 yards.

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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Nakihunter
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: chuck375]
      #100148 - 24/03/08 02:16 PM

Quote:

I have shot a .270 loading 150g Noslers to 3000 fps (hot load for most rifles, fine in mine).
Regards,
Chuck



Ouch!!! Being Easter weekend, I'll include you in my prayers my friend!

Quite seriously Chuck - I mean this with my most sincere good intentions! PLEASE DO NOT USE THAT LOAD & CALL IT SAFE IN ANY RIFLE. You are 150 fps above SAMI spec and that is NOT SAFE. You cannot beat the law of physics. The only way you can get that velocity with 150 gr bullets in a 270 is to use a 30 inch barrel, improve the case or use a Heavy Magnum load with some secret new powder. You might achieve it with a .275 cal bullet (sub-cal) coated with Molly or Teflon tape.

Your rifle action may be very strong, the chamber tolerances very tight, the bolt does not stick with this load & the primer does not flatten. BUT it is still too hot & you will not get more than 3 reloads from the cases - if that. You are better off using Barnes TSX 130s at 3050 fps

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Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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chuck375
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Re: Maximum Range? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #100185 - 25/03/08 12:07 AM

Hi Naki I sincerely appreciate your concern. I've been handloading rifles (first a .243, then my .270 and now my .375 H&H since the early 1970s). I have given my youngest son my .270 and he shoots only the Remington 150g Swift A-Frame factory loads. My older son has his grandfathers .270 (identical Rem 700 BDL only left handed). My primer pockets were always tight, I measured the web with a digital caliper, no difficult extraction or extractor marks on the cases, no signs of high pressure whatsoever. Trust me, when I first started handloading my .243 I went up by .5 g increments and did hit high pressure signs with some powders and immediately threw the rest of those rounds with that load away and backed off 2 grains! I put several hundred of those 150g 3000 fps rounds through that rifle plus thousands of very light varmint loads (90g Sierra HPBT at 3100 fps). When those 150g Noslers hit elk or bear you'd think they were struck by lightning! Never had one move more than 5 yards after being hit. Remember original factory loads for the .270 were 130g at 3140 fps and 150g at 2900 fps. If you send me a PM I'll respond with the powder (not the amount!) primer and other factors I believe made it possible without unsafe pressures, with a please do not forward caveat. I do believe each rifle is a little different. I never used those handloads in my father in-laws .270 (now my older son's rifle) because I only neck size my cases.

Regards,
Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

Edited by chuck375 (25/03/08 12:08 AM)

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