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dnovo
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: CptCurl]
      #101124 - 01/04/08 10:48 PM

What Curl said. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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Anonymous
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: CptCurl]
      #101131 - 02/04/08 01:04 AM

Anything worth doing is hardly ever easy, and it would be a challenge no doubt. Though if I listened to every negative naysayer in my life I wouldn't have made much of myself. Pissing on peoples dreams was not what I had hoped for this thread.

However, I can't say that I am surprised sadly.


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500Nitro
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: ]
      #101136 - 02/04/08 01:29 AM

Quote:

Anything worth doing is hardly ever easy, and it would be a challenge no doubt. Though if I listened to every negative naysayer in my life I wouldn't have made much of myself. Pissing on peoples dreams was not what I had hoped for this thread.

However, I can't say that I am surprised sadly.





What Sinner said.


Yes, the Rigby name is shit ATM but produce ONE very hgh end piece, a middle of the road and maybe a lower grade and put them out there and with credible people, the name would rise from the ashes.

And no one can say having 3 grades is a no no as
Rigby did it for years.

Sinner - stick it up the current Rigby.


PS - The only good thing that came out of the Americans taking over the Rigby name and producing crap was that the value of "Old" Rigby's went up in value !!!


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JabaliHunter
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #101139 - 02/04/08 01:43 AM

Agreed. I think there were quite a few positive suggestions hiding in there too.
People still buy Mercs, even if their quality wasn't up to much for nearly a decade. As soon as it improved, the reputation came back. The same with Land Rover - they weren't worth shit during the British Leyland times, and the pre-leyland ones went up in value. The reputation revived after Leyland went down the tube, although what they will be like under Tata I don't know


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Bramble
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #101166 - 02/04/08 06:46 AM

Amen Sinner, Amen :-)

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Nakihunter
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: Bramble]
      #101178 - 02/04/08 08:38 AM

Sinner, that was a great response. There is a subtle but big difference between vision & pipe dreams, courage & foolhardiness, tenacity & stubbornness, taking calculated risk & being reckless, going on a planned adventure & a rash harebrained venture.....I could go on.

I once commissioned a plant in 40 days after I was asked to take charge - mid project. The big bosses including the CEO & the chairman thought I was exaggerating the critical state of the project. I just forced the planning guy to review the full project plan from basic assumptions. I spent hundreds of thousands without approval and far above my authorised limits. Guess who had the last laugh when the lights went on & the machines started production! The company would have lost millions (in opportunity & sales) if I had accepted the views of the CEO!

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: ]
      #101186 - 02/04/08 10:01 AM

Quote:

Pissing on peoples dreams was not what I had hoped for this thread.

However, I can't say that I am surprised sadly.




I'm sorry if I came off that way. That was not my intention. I was more or less "thinking out loud" about the great difficulties in any such undertaking.

I fully realize that what seems difficult to me might be facile to someone else. If you are serious about this project, I would only wish it well.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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hoppdoc
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: CptCurl]
      #101207 - 02/04/08 01:31 PM

Further logical fascinating "new Rigby" questions--

Exactly how many people would be required for such an endeavor to manufactoure a best quality "London" gun?

I am totally ignorant of the skills required. Where would one go to find the needed people possessing the required expert level of skill to make a "dream team" to build rifles? How would one develop such a business to maintain that level of talent?

The facilities and machinery are obtainable with reasonable $$--it still seems it would be the skill level of the gunmakers/artisans that would be the hardest to procure.

Deliver a quality product from quality known gunmakers and buyers will be beating down your door fluch with $$$.As usual it would be getting the "dream team" together that would be the primary obstacle.

Am I wrong or off base here?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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ArnoldB
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: ]
      #101209 - 02/04/08 01:39 PM

Quote:

Pissing on peoples dreams was not what I had hoped for this thread.




The negative in this thread ought to give you the incentive and determination to succeed, it is not quite "pissing on someone's dream" merely a word of caution.


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dnovo
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: ]
      #101240 - 02/04/08 11:34 PM

Quote:

Anything worth doing is hardly ever easy, and it would be a challenge no doubt. Though if I listened to every negative naysayer in my life I wouldn't have made much of myself. Pissing on peoples dreams was not what I had hoped for this thread.

However, I can't say that I am surprised sadly.




A dose of reality is hardly 'pissing on people' dreams.' You seem to be a bit sensitive to any even slight disagreement with your postings, but since I was censured by our moderator for objecting to your penchant for pissing on other people's rifles, I won't dwell on that here. Why buck the tide that seems to want to allow you free reign to piss where you want and then piss on others who don't just say 'sure, whatever you say.'

Sinner, my observations and I suspect Capt Curl's were simply pointing out the practical problems with reviving Rigby after it has been so badly mistreated over the last few decades. If you want to put the time, effort and talent together to revive it, go right ahead. I for one wish you well and will buy the finished product -- if and when it comes out and if and when it is a true 'Rigby' in fact rather than simply name.

But money talks and bullshit walks. If we simply want to turn this forum into the Fantasy Baseball League of Double Rifles, then let's continue this prolix self stimulation about how we are going to turn back the clock, assemble this group of talented and experienced craftsmen, buck the current market where Purdey and H&H have finished products sitting on the shelf (see the Purdey 470 that has been sitting there for a year or so) and then let's continue to crap on anyone who says that "the Emperor is Naked.'

Or, put up the money and do the job, Sinner or let's move on to discussing DRs not Disneyworld products.

Okay go ahead and start on me. Or simply have this dose of reality removed once again by your buddy.

Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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peter
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: dnovo]
      #101241 - 02/04/08 11:36 PM

bad day at work , dave ?

best regards

peter


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dnovo
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #101244 - 02/04/08 11:50 PM

Quote:

Further logical fascinating "new Rigby" questions--

Exactly how many people would be required for such an endeavor to manufactoure a best quality "London" gun?

I am totally ignorant of the skills required. Where would one go to find the needed people possessing the required expert level of skill to make a "dream team" to build rifles? How would one develop such a business to maintain that level of talent?

The facilities and machinery are obtainable with reasonable $$--it still seems it would be the skill level of the gunmakers/artisans that would be the hardest to procure.

Deliver a quality product from quality known gunmakers and buyers will be beating down your door fluch with $$$.As usual it would be getting the "dream team" together that would be the primary obstacle.

Am I wrong or off base here?




Aha, another sensible observation! Anyone with money can buy the machinery needed to build any level of DR, even, I suppose, a 'best.' You put your finger on the issue when you say, "it still seems it would be the skill level of the gunmakers/artisans that would be the hardest to procure.

Deliver a quality product from quality known gunmakers and buyers will be beating down your door fluch with $$$.As usual it would be getting the "dream team" together that would be the primary obstacle."

Right. Read "SHOTGUN TECHINCA" and follow the time and training Purdey needed to develop their craftsmen. Prying that 'team' away from their present employers would be hard to do. Those that have left and have their own businesses, and are good enough to do the job, are already backed up with orders for build and restoration. Could you lure them away with enough cash? Perhaps, but hard to say and hard to build a team and set up shop in any event.

Buy up an existing organization? Okay, who and how? H&H, Boss or Purdey? Sure!! There are several 'name' British companies that claim to have the time and skill. Paul Roberts? A good thought, but I am told he is happily building bolt actions and feels that is where the better profits can be found. He already has the Jeffery name if he want to develop a DR at this supposed 'realistic' price. Has he done so? Not yet.

The 'dream team' is an apt term. But 'dream market' is more accurate. There is already a 'second tier' out there behind H&H, Purdey, and WR. They offer names like Jeffery, E.J.Churchill, Greener, etc. You want to step into that market?

Good luck, and when you assemble that 'dream team' let me know if you find that 'dream market' as well. If it exists, you would see far more Jefferys, Greeners, etc out there.

The real answer can be seen from Sinner's own posts and others. He has a Greener on order. The wait time is in years. The same for a bespoke WR or a Watson (another revived British maker.) So if you are going to step into this dream market with your dream team, I'd wake up first.

If Sinner or anyone else wants to spend their money, my sincere best wishes and I hope it succeeds. But I suggest it either happens or we move on to something else a bit more real world.

Dave (aka Eoyre)

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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dnovo
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: peter]
      #101250 - 03/04/08 12:01 AM

Quote:

bad day at work , dave ?

best regards

peter




No, just watching everyone fall over themselves as this thread goes from fantasy into a tone that takes a wack at those respected and valuable posters such as the Capt who offers even a mild disagreement. When we complain that someone who simply points out the practical problems is 'pissing on my dreams' and then others jump up and join the chorus, then that is just off base.

I feel everyone can and should be free to offer his views. But when the response is 'why are you pissing on my dreams'and we start to hear requests for an apology for doing so, it is time to call a Spade a Spade.

There is nothing wrong with Fantasy Baseball, but there is something a bit odd about insisting that it is the Real World.

And Court doesn't start for another hour here and yesterday was a good day. Thank you asking though. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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peter
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: dnovo]
      #101254 - 03/04/08 12:36 AM

Quote:


And Court doesn't start for another hour here and yesterday was a good day. Thank you asking though. Dave




i forgot that when im about to call it a day, you guys are only starting. regarding the rigby matter i think that it could be done faster and better than most people think, but we will see in the future.

best regards

peter

P.S the rigby im hoping for is a london basede company, without american craftsmen what so ever.


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Huvius
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: dnovo]
      #101259 - 03/04/08 01:06 AM

WOW!
Here is my last thought on the subject, and then I will stay quiet. Unless provoked...
I have had a couple conversations on this subject in the last two days and here is what I see is the situation. IMHO
The high line London makers have resisted modernisation and still are making their guns in much the same way as they have for the last century. This is where the excessive hand work and time is made neccessary.
Is this a good way to do business? Depends on your point of view. The limited ability for these makers to produce quality in quantity is what keeps eager buyers in the wait line and prices at the premium which they are. I have seen in other threads that H&H, Purdey etc. make maybe 10 best DR's each per year. Is this due to low demand? - No, in fact there is a wait list. As for the gun on the shelf at Purdey's, it has not sold because it is a non-bespoke gun at very bespoke gun price. Who the hell will pay that for a gun that wasn't made specifically for them to their every exact desire?
Is an entirely hand made gun "better" than one which has been largely made by machine?
This is also a question of personal POV. It is possible,even with 20yr. old CNC technology, to rapidly produce an action which is 95% done with tolerances which require very little hand finishing. Would you know by looking at a finished gun whether it was made one way or the other? NO. Would it feel or shoot differently either way? NO. Would servicing the gun be more easily accomplished? YES. Would the gun be faster to produce? YES. Would the buying public still pay the inflated prices? Probably not for long.
And therin lies the quandry. The question is not whether to revive a downtrodden name to make guns in the same fashion as has been done for 130 years, it is really whether a high quality gun can be made today which has all of the attributes, real or percieved, of a that "old guard" maker with modern techniques, at a reasonable cost and with a ready market.
I say YES.
Another point worth remembering is that Purdey and H&H survive not off of revenue from guns, but from "lifestyle" products. $200K gun? Bet they sell that DAILY in accessories. If it is pure greed dollars you want, buy the Rigby name and start making clothing, hats, belts, slings etc. - anything you can stamp the Rigby name on.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Anonymous
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: CptCurl]
      #101266 - 03/04/08 01:53 AM

All good here Roscoe, some of us are working hard to make this project actually happen. I hope your recovering well from your surgery.

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500Nitro
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: dnovo]
      #101279 - 03/04/08 02:21 AM

Quote:



A dose of reality is hardly 'pissing on people' dreams.' You seem to be a bit sensitive to any even slight disagreement with your postings, but since I was censured by our moderator for objecting to your penchant for pissing on other people's rifles, I won't dwell on that here. Why buck the tide that seems to want to allow you free reign to piss where you want and then piss on others who don't just say 'sure, whatever you say.'

Sinner, my observations and I suspect Capt Curl's were simply pointing out the practical problems with reviving Rigby after it has been so badly mistreated over the last few decades. If you want to put the time, effort and talent together to revive it, go right ahead. I for one wish you well and will buy the finished product -- if and when it comes out and if and when it is a true 'Rigby' in fact rather than simply name.

But money talks and bullshit walks. If we simply want to turn this forum into the Fantasy Baseball League of Double Rifles, then let's continue this prolix self stimulation about how we are going to turn back the clock, assemble this group of talented and experienced craftsmen, buck the current market where Purdey and H&H have finished products sitting on the shelf (see the Purdey 470 that has been sitting there for a year or so) and then let's continue to crap on anyone who says that "the Emperor is Naked.'

Or, put up the money and do the job, Sinner or let's move on to discussing DRs not Disneyworld products.

Okay go ahead and start on me. Or simply have this dose of reality removed once again by your buddy.

Dave






Dave

It's his efffing money, what concern is it of yours what he does with it.

And by the way, this is NE, NOT AR where democracy doesn't rule but is at the Whim of whoever so if we want to talk about this here, let us.

It's like a TV, if YOU don't want to discuss it, then don't read or respond to the thread and / or start another thread where you can discuss what you want to discuss.


I am sure Sinner and others on here didn't get some money by being dickheads but we all know about making mistakes and losing money.

In any case, If I had the money I'd do it just to show the Yanks where they fucked up (and before you have a go at me about Amercian bashing, I deal with them all the time in business in preference to other cheaper nations).


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500Nitro
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: dnovo]
      #101281 - 03/04/08 02:29 AM

Quote:


Sinner, my observations and I suspect Capt Curl's were simply pointing out the practical problems with reviving Rigby after it has been so badly mistreated over the last few decades. If you want to put the time, effort and talent together to revive it, go right ahead. I for one wish you well and will buy the finished product -- if and when it comes out and if and when it is a true 'Rigby' in fact rather than simply name.

But money talks and bullshit walks. If we simply want to turn this forum into the Fantasy Baseball League of Double Rifles, then let's continue this prolix self stimulation about how we are going to turn back the clock, assemble this group of talented and experienced craftsmen, buck the current market where Purdey and H&H have finished products sitting on the shelf (see the Purdey 470 that has been sitting there for a year or so) and then let's continue to crap on anyone who says that "the Emperor is Naked.'

Or, put up the money and do the job, Sinner or let's move on to discussing DRs not Disneyworld products.

Okay go ahead and start on me. Or simply have this dose of reality removed once again by your buddy.

Dave





Dave

The practical problems of reviving Rigby are MINISCULE
compared to everything else.


To revive them practically, all you need to do is find good workers who can build good guns - and there are plenty of good gunsmiths around who could do it, you just have to put it all together and allow them to do it.

SOMETHING THAT IS SEVERELY LACKING AT MEXICAN RIGBY.

The rest of it is the hard part - and that is gaining the Confidence, Trust and acceptance of the market - something Mexican crap tried to do by buying a name but lost all the
Confidence, Trust and acceptance of the market in one fell swoop by turning up to SCI with a Rebadge Merkel - and NOT a very good one at that.

"let's move on to discussing DRs not Disneyworld products."
Go ahead, move on, let us continue, you don't have to partake in it if you don't want to.

Dave - let's just say it is only a "dream" of Sinner's, mine, Curl's etc to revive Rigby's, what the fuck is the diff between that and a newbie coming on board here at NE, getting involved in the discussions and clearly saying he would love to own an English DR in the future and then watching them achieve that ? It's great to watch them do it so let it be.

Edited by 500Nitro (03/04/08 03:35 AM)


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Pilgrim
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #101287 - 03/04/08 03:26 AM

As I lay in bed last night watching the Mariners lose, I was thinking about how I might go about such an enterprise as that being proposed. First of all, am I an entrepenuer(sp?)? - No. On the other hand, I spent the past 25+ years doing various jobs on one of DOE's nuclear reservations that were in the category of "can't be done" or had been screwed up by various "chosen" managers. I had annual budgets in exceess of ~$200 Million, and up to 470 employees reporting to me. What I had to do was not totally unlike what Sinner, et al are thinking of doing.

My thoughts were as follows:

First - You have to WANT to make the Project succeed, no matter what it takes. You simply can't let others participate who think "it can't be done" as they will quickly poison the waters so to speak. Being tenacious is an attribute for these kinds of problems.

Second, you have to decide what you will build in house vs. outsource. This is not as easy as it would seem on the surface. What outsourced items can be used without compromising the build quality you are targeting? What should they cost and who can produce the items? For example, an easy decision (again IMO) are barrels. There are at least 1/2 dozen suppliers that can produce barrels that are straight and +/- .0001" dimensionally. Why not simply buy the barrels and let those expeerts do their thing? You are not going to get a better barrel no matter how hard you try. But what about forgings? Do these in house or out source? I am assuming you will contract a CNC expert to program your machine(s) to produce the action you will design. There is no reason to keep such an individual in your employ. Not enough work for him/her and once programmed, changes are not too likely going to be needed often. Simply contract it and get on with it. And so on...

Third, assuming it will take some 2 years or more to arrange for supppliers, contracts, etc as well as producing a finished rifle, sufficient financing to keep the whole enterprise afloat will not be an easy thing to do unless you have very deep pockets for "discretionary" spending.

Finally, the easiest (IMO) problem to solve is the craftsmanship issue. There are thousands, maybe more, of North Americans that have the requisite skills and patience to do the level of work you are planning. What they don't have is direct knowledge of "how" to do it, or what is "done" when finished. It takes skill to "run a file" but we have quite a few on this board that are doing it themselves right now building their own DR's on shotgun actions. There are a lot more metal working types out there that could do just a well with a bit of instruction. It seems to me that finding a good stockmaker, and a good actioner would be key as those two must have the ability to teach others by transferring their knowledge to the skilled men/women you've hired. People who can both do and teach are rather rare.

Those english craftsmen you are putting on a pedestal have learned by doing via apprenticeship programs. They filed away making one piece of a rifle , and then graduating to another piece and so on for many years. How many actions/rifles have they individually actually built? Not too many I would guesstimate.

If your pockets are deep enough Sinner, go for it! God bless you for wanting to and the willingness to try. FWIW...Pilgrim


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dnovo
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #101289 - 03/04/08 05:29 AM

[Dave
Dave - let's just say it is only a "dream" of Sinner's, mine, Curl's etc to revive Rigby's, what the fuck is the diff between that and a newbie coming on board here at NE, getting involved in the discussions and clearly saying he would love to own an English DR in the future and then watching them achieve that ? It's great to watch them do it so let it be.




A 'newbie.' I've been not only collecting and shooting DRs since I was old enough to handle my father's pre-WWII Fraser, but have owned and collected them since my late teens. (I am 60.) A newbie? Not on this issue.

This 'newbie' has been involved in the legal and financial end of the firearms and ammunition business for thirty years. I have also been involved in trying to straighten out the messes that have caused more than one American and several other companies within the industry fail or reorganize. If you would like, send me a PM and I will send you a link to the firm and you can run me through most legal databases and see that, unlike some others, I am neither a newbie or a poser or a gun snob, who feels that having purchased a number of guns makes him the guru on the production, management and sales of even a small gun manufacturer.

So if you want to gas about how you are going to do all of this, feel free, but don't piss on me because I may disagree. If that's 'how we do it at NE, then that's too bad.

I should know better than to ask anyone on the Net to show his bona fides, including you and especially Sinner, who, by number of posts is no less a 'newbie' than me. To coin a phrase, I'll show you my collection and my bona fides (and the case lists) at any time, will you and he do the same? Let me know when you are ready, unless you would simply prefer to censor me again so you can continue your circle jerk.

As I said before, I couldn't care less if he, you or any combination of you want to spend your money anyway you want. I do care when some of us, me included, get told 'how dare you piss on my dreams' and then ass kissers like you leap to his defense and say, what the fuck right do I have to say something.

Sinner et al, put up or shut up. If you are going to do it, then do it and have fun. Don't tell me or anyone else that we have to salute the flag and pretend that a bunch of Internet talk must be treated as the Gospel.

Et tu? Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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mickey
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: dnovo]
      #101290 - 03/04/08 05:38 AM

I think if more of you guys would read for comprehension and do less searching for selected insults this thread would go farther and be more pleasant for everyone

But that's just me.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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450_366
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: mickey]
      #101293 - 03/04/08 06:08 AM

When I read this tread it almost seems as this forum are becoming a lot like all the others where people have the nasty habit not to act as gentelmens. But thats only my opininon.

By the way most of the people who invented/explored varius stuff was from time to time called dreamers. Dreams built this world, for better and worse. And dont forget that dead fish flotes downstream.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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dnovo
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: 450_366]
      #101298 - 03/04/08 06:28 AM

Quote:

By the way most of the people who invented/explored varius stuff was from time to time called dreamers. Dreams built this world, for better and worse. And dont forget that dead fish flotes downstream.




Good point. I haven't heard that one in a while. Perhaps I have seen too many dead fish floating downstream in my career and too few dreams that survived the upstream trip to avoid being cynical. I appreciate your comment. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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Anonymous
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: mickey]
      #101299 - 03/04/08 06:34 AM

Amen Mick.

But when it gets to serious personal insults in a public forum, something must be done to stop the prejudice. I am all for a good debate, but raining bullshit on people is not something I personally think is classy or intelligent. Something must be done about this poison.


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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: What a Joke! [Re: ]
      #101305 - 03/04/08 07:14 AM

Yes, why not ban the blaggard? I'll vote for that! It should make it easier for you to and Mick to stroke each other and prevent anyone from disagreeing in the future. Dave (aka The Man Who Poisons the Dreamers of the Wealthy -supposedly - Dilettantes Who Think They Know It All and are Above Reproach) Tahiti, Prague, London, Palm Springs and Buffalo New York (Winters only.)

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (03/04/08 07:17 AM)


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