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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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SXS
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: CptCurl]
      #99988 - 22/03/08 11:00 PM

I'm interested also!
SXS

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Nakihunter
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: Huvius]
      #100041 - 23/03/08 09:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Any OTB ideas for "our" Rigby???



Heres one. I think pigeon holing a venture like this into the "best side lock only" bracket would be a mistake IMHO.
I, along with most others on this forum just don't have the means to buy a six figure gun - that is why the London makers don't produce many guns - low demand.
BUT...I would love to buy a new rook rifle or a double with less ornament than the current best guns always have. Just look at a period catalog of any of the high grade makers and wonder at the variety on offer then. Obviously, to replicate this would be impossible today, but excluding the option of offering "lesser" grade guns to willing buyers is akin to refusing money.
In the golden era of the English makers, the engraving was the least expensive task in the production of a best gun. I would bet that today, it would be the most expensive.



I agree with this. The objective is to make a success of the project.

What will bring success in the market? - Sales in volume & / or $ value. This will not be achieved with just Best grade guns. We will need a product profile that includes mid range high quality guns, accessories, paraphernalia, etc. If necessary we should add another brand for the lower end guns so that the Rigby name is not diluted.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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BigFiveJack
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: ]
      #100105 - 24/03/08 02:40 AM

Sinner, [Scott]

If you want to buy out a rifle maker who

CAN and DOES make a prize double contact

www.ttproctor.com - at least you would

own something that is worth having!

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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mickey
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #100109 - 24/03/08 03:12 AM

BFJ

Not quite the same thing. If you just want to build DR's and need a Brit name you would be better to buy John Wilkes, who come with a 100 year quality name.

But the name Rigby tops them all.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: CptCurl]
      #100122 - 24/03/08 09:36 AM

Cpt Curl/ SxS,

This is a link to the BGRC match course.

I don't know the dates of this year's matches but since the NE forums are the forum sponsors of these matches, we'll definitely be among the first to know.

I shall look forward to meeting you gentlemen if you decide to come. This is a fantastic event and I have always enjoyed myself there.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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hoppdoc
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: mickey]
      #100123 - 24/03/08 09:37 AM

I am obviously dreaming here--

How about getting a "London" name manufacturor(betcha Rigbys doubtful), but ??Wilkes and doing some sidelocks but redo the Webley style boxlock with doll's head fastener and screw type foreend sans engraving- a reproduction of sorts.Folks are waiting over a year to receive Doubles now--if you put out a quality product there would be a large demand!!

You would have to be unique and different when you are appealing to high end buyers who are deciding between a dressed out german Heym Double vs a $$40,000-50,000-$100,000 level Brit gun. A quality $30k "London" gun sounds about right.

Is some other Brit maker alrady doing this?? ?Jeffery? If not I think there are folks who would pay major bucks for a quality repro "working" gun--

Sinner and Mickey --go for it!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (24/03/08 10:07 AM)

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dnovo
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #100136 - 24/03/08 11:04 AM

"A quality $30k "London" gun sounds about right." So does .99 cent a gallon gas, but I doubt if we are going to see either. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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ArnoldB
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: dnovo]
      #100137 - 24/03/08 11:51 AM

It would just about be possible to make a gun at that price, trouble you will have is people will think something is wrong with it at that price.
Robertsons guns were around that figure if memory serves me right,I doubt any were sold(correct me if I'm wrong).

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hoppdoc
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: dnovo]
      #100140 - 24/03/08 12:49 PM

I would tend to agree with dnovo that the Double Rifle field is saturated, the talent pool to accomplish the product is quite limited and the buyers are fickle indeed at the 30-50K level and higher!!! The low end competition is thick and already way above 95% of hunters finances, thus the number of high end buyers/collectors quite limited!!

You would have to have major cohones to get into that mainstream competition.More profit to take the rigby name and ughh!,terrible thoughts-- "prostitute it" it on some other specialty gun niche, high profit niche-single shots,yada, yada, yada,--And you wouldn't want to buy the company with all its problems unless you could make a major profit--RIGHT???

For the money and for the most buyers available it would be better to come up with some semi-ugly accurate CNC hybrid preformed multiswitch stainless barreled plastic stocked gimmish at around the 2k level.Monstrosities like that may make a profit if they catch on---

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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dnovo
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: ArnoldB]
      #100175 - 24/03/08 11:04 PM

Quote:

It would just about be possible to make a gun at that price, trouble you will have is people will think something is wrong with it at that price.
Robertsons guns were around that figure if memory serves me right,I doubt any were sold(correct me if I'm wrong).



Cabelas just listed three "Robertson by Boss" shotguns on their site as December 2007 production and newly arrived in the US. (List price is $17,000.) Haven't seen any Robertson rifles yet and don't know the status of that project. Anyone out there with an answer to that? Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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JabaliHunter
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #100177 - 24/03/08 11:20 PM

Quote:

I would tend to agree with dnovo that the Double Rifle field is saturated


With respect, I disagree. The key to any market is to find a niche and that is where the high end DRs are marketed. The Rigby Bissel Rising Bite would be one such niche, complementing the Westley detachable lock and the Holland Royal. I don't doubt that it would be profitable if built extremely well (with a high proportion of it by hand), even if production were as high as 1 per month! If it wasn't profitable, why would we be seeing a revival of British gunmaking and new entrants to the field. Its definitley a concept that I would like to be involved with.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #100182 - 24/03/08 11:43 PM

JabaliHunter,

You're dead on here. The demand is definitely there and speculators have been buying up and dusting off a lot of old names and putting more guns into production to complement the production from the big four. If this were not the case, Greener would not have been revived and neither would have Thomas Bland who recently announced their own double rifles. Watson Brothers have been in business for some years now and a Scottish firm has bought up all the major Scottish names including Dickson, MacNaughton, Mortimer, Alexander Henry and Fraser. I have also heard about some commissions by Middle Eastern clients that have been well over a million dollars worth in the UK and on the Continent, and, the Russians have recently begun to enter the market. And at least one big British name is offering to hold guns for some wealthy Indian clients who cannot take their guns back to India becaue of Indian gun import restrictions.

I doubt the subprime mess is going to affect the bulk of these buyers. On a very positive note, this might well herald a new golden age of gunmaking.

Good hunting, everyone!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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hoppdoc
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #100234 - 25/03/08 09:49 AM

Well if they can swing it, go for it!!

Anything much over 15K is going to be out of the reach of of 99% of most hunters/gunowners---

Still I would love to see and enjoy such handsome weapons!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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ArnoldB
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: dnovo]
      #100236 - 25/03/08 09:59 AM

Quote:

Haven't seen any Robertson rifles yet and don't know the status of that project. Anyone out there with an answer to that? Dave


That probably is because that project is non existant as far as I know, I only mentioned them as an illustration on what you can buy for 15$k with a london name.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: bwanakim]
      #100291 - 26/03/08 02:09 AM

Quote:

Might I add before actually going back to work, one wonders about the Emperor's VIP Club of gunwriters who go on about how fine these tarted up Merkels are. Obviously, they feel that we, who are stupid enough to buy their books, will be possibly swayed away from those guns which are truly fine. I buy their books to have the photos of the old stuff--even then, it's plain that "gunwriting" must be the world's second oldest profession!



I have news for you, the Merkels are better rifles, than the Cal. Rigbys, and the Merkel case color is better as well. There is nothing wrong with the Merkel action, in fact, it is the only part of the Rigby that is worth buying! Everyone should have known they produce junk, after the "WONDERFULL" Rogue River rifles that preceded the Cal Rigby, which were well regulated to hit a wall SOMEPLACE inside a barn, with the doors closed!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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JabaliHunter
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #100298 - 26/03/08 03:14 AM

Quote:

well regulated to hit a wall SOMEPLACE inside a barn, with the doors closed!


Were they that good?

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hoppdoc
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #100379 - 26/03/08 03:53 PM

At least a Merkel is value for the money and you know its a Merkel!!It is a functional accurate tool-It is what it is without shame--

A Rigby is an act of 'prostitution" and delivers false promises of quality relying on the early Rigby name!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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dnovo
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #100408 - 26/03/08 11:02 PM

Quote:

At least a Merkel is value for the money and you know its a Merkel!!It is a functional accurate tool-It is what it is without shame



Hold on, let's not damn Merkel with faint praise. Their day to day, base model DRs are well built and functional at a very reasonable price. That does not mean that Merkel automatically means low end or shoddy. Their sidelocks are also the least expensive in the current market and are very nicely done as well.

Although they are rarely brought into this country, the ones that are have mostly been ex-EWA guns GSI buys at the end of the show and imports in very small number. Some display the unfortunate penchant of Suhl engravers to depict animals that appear to have been inflated with helium rather than shown in anything close to their normal state. Others, however, have very well executed scroll or game scenes from one or more of their crew of in-house engravers. I have acquired several sidelocks and boxlock specials this way for what turned out to be very inexpensive and, in one instance, down right silly bargain prices. (An ex-EWA 160 sidelock in a 8X75R with fantastic engraving and great wood for $8,500.)

I need to get some photos up in the appropriate section of the forum, but once you have a chance to take a good look at the higher end Merkel products, it is difficult to appreciate what they are capable of doing. For a start, check out Captain Curl's photos of his 323E as an example of their earlier work. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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hoppdoc
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: dnovo]
      #100777 - 30/03/08 01:39 AM

I have no problems with Merkel--I LOVE my 140.2 in 500 NE--a GREAT hunting gun!!






Edited by hoppdoc (30/03/08 01:48 AM)

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dnovo
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #100826 - 30/03/08 09:32 AM

My Merkel 141 in 7X57R, game scene engraved, ejectors, and a Burris Short Mag 4.5X14 on a swing mountwent out to the range with me today. At 100yds, the gun groups were tight, recoil a non issue and the rifle is perfectly balanced and handy to use. My first experience with Merkel's non-selective, recoil operated single trigger (my other Merkels are all double trigger) but this one soon became a joy to use, once I got comfortable with it. In a hunting situation, I agree with those who say it is a bit faster to use than a double trigger. (Was it Elmer Keith who preferred single triggers for his several WRs in 476NE?) Considering the price, with scope, mounting by GSI's gunsmith and firing in, the mount, etc was under $7500, I say one hell of a bargain in a rifle that is a great medium to light double. And, the engraving (Silke Heinke) is stunning for a 'low priced' double. H&H or Purdey quality? Hell no. But on a very basic boxlock, and at a price without the optics of just around $6,000, not bad at all. Dave











--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (30/03/08 10:45 AM)

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hoppdoc
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: dnovo]
      #100840 - 30/03/08 11:45 AM

Very handsome rifle and a h*lluva deal for the $$$--

I would love it--in 9.3x74R!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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dnovo
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #100852 - 30/03/08 01:36 PM

They make it in that caliber as well. You have to look around, as this was 'old stock' (2007 import although brand new.) The newer ones have gone up in price, sinking $ rising Euro. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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Huvius
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: dnovo]
      #101044 - 01/04/08 04:47 AM

To get back on topic here...
What do you suppose is the value of the John Rigby name?
I suggested earlier to look at what Joseph Brazier Ltd. is capable of, and having explored the website and that of Karl Lippard, I am convinced that a quality gun can be produced in the US. Certainly a better gun at a lower cost than the Californicated Rigby.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DarylS
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: CptCurl]
      #101062 - 01/04/08 08:05 AM

Curl - would that question pertain to the period of time before the California conern ruined it?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: What a Joke! [Re: Huvius]
      #101119 - 01/04/08 09:32 PM

In my opinion it would be most difficult to breathe new life into the Rigby mark. The whole world knows that at present "Rigby" is no more than a word. It stands for nothing. There is no credible organization behind it. There is no remnant of tradition or culture developed over time and upon which the former good will was established. It has been stripped of everything it once stood for.

If someone should acquire that name, that person would be building a new stock of good will from the ground up. Acceptance of the brand, if to be had, would come not from the name, but only from a strong demonstration of highest quality product coupled with devotion to late 19th century ideals and ethics.

I suppose it would require that the highest level of talent be combined with appropriate equipment in a proper location, preferably in London. Initially and for the foreseeable future there would have to be sufficient capital backing to support production of speculation guns to demonstrate the talent. Only after such a showing would orders be forthcoming.

Tony Galazan has attempted a similar undertaking trading on his own name as to his O/U while trading on the Fox and Winchester names also. More recently he seems to be concentrating on mass produced knockoffs of the SKB. Obviously he couldn't confine his effort to the very high end. Could he do better with a worn-out name such as "Rigby"? Doubtful. It would be interesting to see his financial statements.

All of this seems a daunting task. Whether and how such a venture could be made profitable is beyond my comprehension.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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