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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game
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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains game
      #99406 - 17/03/08 05:43 AM

Would like to get an opinion on what you would take if you were going on an African hunt for 18 days with the primary focus being Lion? Other animals on license are hippo and buff for bait as well as croc. with some occassional plains game however the plains game is not a major item on this hunt. Will be hunting in the northern Zambezi of Zim. in mid to late May so most shots should not be very far..

Debating on taking the scoped bolt action in .416 as the all around gun--as it shoots very well and I am very comfortable with this gun.. The other I am considering is either taking a scoped .338 Ultra-mag which could be used for plains game as well as possible for the brain shot on the croc ..shooting 250 gr. A-Frames-- or taking a double in .470 which I could possibly use on buff and maybe hippo if caught on land..

While I realize the 416-338 combo provides much more flexibility, however I have always wanted to hunt with the W/R 470--as some point....could always use it next time but as often stated there are no guarantees in life...

PLEASE--provide any thoughts, opinions you might have on this topic...

Thank you

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains game [Re: Ripp]
      #99409 - 17/03/08 06:20 AM

well ripp

you know me so, i think that you should take the 470 in a heart beat.

best regards

peter

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains game [Re: peter]
      #99415 - 17/03/08 07:22 AM

RIPP, you are a shooter and you will know for sure.

Whichever for plains game, maybe a really light rifle.

But for lion...

How about this; since you know the .416 will kill everything totally adequately, all that matters is what you want to bring, and of course your shooting, and that is round-count and time-on-target.

But you WANT to take the .470, and the .338 is an option, and really, it is a great lion caliber, too. Ahhh, but that .470 keeps beckoning and you want to bring it, which is natural. Who wouldn't?

So, why not make a sort of game out of it, a contest of sorts. You have a couple months or more before the hunt, yes?

Pick some real, practical, field accuracy goals for lion. Real life speed and distance shooting {whatever the max range might be for lion in the area in which you plan to hunt}. Take your three rifles; .416, .470 and the .338. Be honest and strict in your shooting goals.

Pit the three against each other. If I remember correctly, you can get to the range a few times a week and plan to from here on in. So do so, and then after, say, three weeks, make an honest judgement. Which one wins? Which one do you honestly shoot the best with?

Whichever that one is, buy the bulk of your ammo and spend the next month and a half shooting it and your light rifle alone {...and your .22 of course }.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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hoppdoc
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains game [Re: Ripp]
      #99420 - 17/03/08 07:40 AM

Ripp,

The Buff and hippo scream 470 for sure!!

The lion and plainsgame are easy 416 territory with a premium softnose bullet--

The only question arises if the 416 is accurate enough to your tastes to take the croc you want---
if so the 416/470 combo would be a great way to hunt!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Anonymous
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: Ripp]
      #99422 - 17/03/08 07:44 AM

A 416 Rigby Bolt and or a 470 Nitro Express double.

Some of the Lions I have encountered have been really tough, and at times I wished I had a bigger gun. 375's just don't cut it for me anymore for Lion or Buff or Hippo. 40 cal and up for Africa! You never know whats out in that bush, PH or not I rely on my shot not his.

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Bramble
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: ]
      #99423 - 17/03/08 07:46 AM

You just have to take the double!! For the other I would go with the 416 that you are comftable with.

Regards

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AzGuy
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Reged: 23/03/06
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Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: Bramble]
      #99443 - 17/03/08 10:32 AM

Another vote for the 470 DR and 416 bolt combo..... more than you need but what is wrong with that?

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Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!

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ozhunter
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: AzGuy]
      #99461 - 17/03/08 04:53 PM

As you know, I did this such hunt happily with my light 9.3mm and 470NE.
If I were in your shoes (and wish I was!!!) I would use the 416 as a main rifle an take the 470 for the Buffalo hunt.


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: ozhunter]
      #99476 - 18/03/08 12:21 AM

In my case, probably the .400 Jeffery double. I hunt with it more often than all my other rifles combined, it fits me perfectly and I have full confidence in its ability. Just what one needs when hunting lion...! Caveat: Woodleigh softs please!

Buff for bait means non-trophy, but the .400 NE will handle the biggest old bull if necessary.

Regarding crocs, we live with them here in Australia's Northern Territory and see them every day while fishing, couldn't get excited about shooting one. But if necessary, that double is accurate enough to do the job out to 100 yds or so even with express sights.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: Marrakai]
      #99480 - 18/03/08 02:00 AM

Hello Marrakai, I have a couple of books ref bullet placement, namely "In the Salt" by Lou Hallamore and another whose name I can't recall but is a vet by trade in SA. I am still unsure about bullet placement on a croc. I am off to Africa in Sept and have one on the list. Can you enlighten me. People seem to talk about a brain shot or it's lost and that area seems to be about 1" square so either you are a bloody good shot with your .400 (which I am sure you are) or I am missing something. Do they float after dying if they get back to water or what. Help needed, best, Mike

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SAHUNT
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #99492 - 18/03/08 05:21 AM

The double is a must and then either of the other 2. I will take the 416.

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
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SA Hunting Experience

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AzGuy
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Reged: 23/03/06
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Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: SAHUNT]
      #99495 - 18/03/08 06:14 AM

Ripp,

Something else to think about.... most DR owners are aware of the "If you don't use it, you will lose it" law. Which states:

"If you own a DG DR and do NOT use said DG DR on Buff then you must send said DG DR to the person who brought this law to your attention"

I'll PM you with my shipping info!

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: ozhunter]
      #99513 - 18/03/08 01:17 PM

Quote:

As you know, I did this such hunt happily with my light 9.3mm and 470NE.
If I were in your shoes (and wish I was!!!) I would use the 416 as a main rifle an take the 470 for the Buffalo hunt.




I've done this hunt as well, though a few tuskless were on the menu as well.

Unlike OZHunter, who connected with a wonderful lion, I never saw the right one though seeing many. I believe OZHunter hunted the very next week! Which make viewing photos of his great hunt as wonderful as painful!

I took my Thys double rifle in 458wm and a bolt in 375H&H and the plan was, track the lion - as OzHunter successfully did! - or bait carying the 375H&H, follow uo with the double. This plan pleased the PH, who uses a 470, no end.

So, The 416, which beats the 375H&H in everyway relevant, and the 470 sound like a great combo to me.

JPK

PS. Hope you do near as well as OZhunter, which would be great to read about!

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allenday
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Reged: 18/04/04
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains game [Re: Ripp]
      #99542 - 19/03/08 12:26 AM

I'd take a 338 Win. Mag. and a 416 Rem. Mag.

In fact, I'm hunting in Zambia this season for hippo, leopard, croc, buffalo, and plainsgame, that's exactly the combo I'm going to take.

For my 416, I have 370 gr. North Fork solids and softs loaded to right at 2500 fps., and those are proven loads that have work perfectly on everything I've shot with them, including buffalo, etc., plus they're superbly accurate, and the solids and softs hit in exactly the same place.

For the 338, I'm using 225 gr. Swift A-Frames at over 2800 fps., which I used on my 2006 Zimbabwe safari, and those A-Frames worked so well on everything from nyala and bushpig to eland that there was simply nothing left to question or desire in the way of performance. My hunting partner used that same bullet in his own 338 Win. Mag., and amoung many other animals he took a 200 + yd. going-away shot on a huge, ancient eland bull, and piled him up within just a few steps. The bullet was found just under the hide on the off-side and had penetrated well over 40".

So we're both taking the same loads for our rifles this year, because they work, pure and simple........

If I wanted to keep things really simply and just hunt with one rifle, I'd go with a 375 H&H and good 300 gr. soft point and solid loads, and I have my rifle zeroed with 300 gr. Trophy Bonded softs and 300 gr. Trophy Bonded solids.

AD

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains game [Re: allenday]
      #99545 - 19/03/08 12:47 AM

I know guys take a DG rifle and a lighter, non-buff rifle combo and get away with it. I think it is more prudent to take two rifles that are legal and appropriate for the largest game you plan to hunt, just in case your big rifle goes tits up. That would make a 9.3x62 or 375H&H the lightest prudent second rifle, imo, since both are legal for buff (and elephant too.)

JPK

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains game [Re: JPK]
      #99558 - 19/03/08 02:31 AM

Quote:

I know guys take a DG rifle and a lighter, non-buff rifle combo and get away with it. I think it is more prudent to take two rifles that are legal and appropriate for the largest game you plan to hunt, just in case your big rifle goes tits up. That would make a 9.3x62 or 375H&H the lightest prudent second rifle, imo, since both are legal for buff (and elephant too.)

JPK



In Zim, is the "9.3x62" specified as legal for buff, or is there a velocity/energy stated?

Meaning, are 9.3 wildcats legal and if so, how are they "proven"? Or, put a different way for example, could a 9.3x57 be used if it met factory spec for 9.3x62 velocity/energy?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains game [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99632 - 19/03/08 11:33 AM

Yes as I understand it. But you might have trouble with the situation since it is implied at least that the minimums apply to factory loadings.

To find the regs, look for ZATSO and the like. Zim Assc Tour and Safari Operators, Zim PH Assoc.. the like. Can't recall all the abevs, but a search will do it.

PS, the energy figures are in joules.

JPK

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ozhunter
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Reged: 18/08/04
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: JPK]
      #99656 - 19/03/08 05:00 PM

Quote:

I know guys take a DG rifle and a lighter, non-buff rifle combo and get away with it. I think it is more prudent to take two rifles that are legal and appropriate for the largest game you plan to hunt, just in case your big rifle goes tits up. That would make a 9.3x62 or 375H&H the lightest prudent second rifle, imo, since both are legal for buff (and elephant too.)

JPK



Spot on.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: ozhunter]
      #99752 - 20/03/08 04:15 PM

For the game mentioned I would take my .450 Double and my .375 Bolt. Very similar to my last safari where I took my 9.3x74R double instead but also borrowed a 8x68S from the PH for longer shots.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: AzGuy]
      #99774 - 20/03/08 10:37 PM

Quote:

Ripp,

Something else to think about.... most DR owners are aware of the "If you don't use it, you will lose it" law. Which states:

"If you own a DG DR and do NOT use said DG DR on Buff then you must send said DG DR to the person who brought this law to your attention"

I'll PM you with my shipping info!




That is good and a great attempt...guess my mind is made up then..double it is--along with the .416--hopefully will send photos or results..

thanks to everyone for this input

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Ripp
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: JPK]
      #99775 - 20/03/08 10:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:


JPK

PS. Hope you do near as well as OZhunter, which would be great to read about!





If all things work out right--you will be able--if you wish-- to watch it on DVD ..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Dutch44
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: Ripp]
      #99787 - 21/03/08 01:19 AM

I'm hunting lion in Tanz in Oct/Nov. I'm taking the .375 H&H as primary lion rifle but my 450-400 3 1/4 will be in the blind with me. I'm concerned with light conditions, distance (70 yards approximate bait to blind). With 3 buff on license and hippo, croc and leopard I feel adequately armed and will us the double as much as possible. Just don't want to try a 100 yard shot on a croc with my double and loose my trophy fee cause my double is very accurate but not exactly MOA on a walnut sized brain t that distance.


Dutch

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ozhunter
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Reged: 18/08/04
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: Dutch44]
      #99833 - 21/03/08 08:06 AM

A good scope like the Schmidt & Bender 1.5-6x42 with illuminated reticle is probably more important than which of the medium to heavy bore calibers is to be used imo.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: ozhunter]
      #99842 - 21/03/08 10:26 AM

Mike Bailey:
Missed your earlier post, sorry. PM sent, but decided to respond anyway.
Not a croc-shooter myself, but own 2 skulls under permit and there are many more available for casual study in the Northern Territory. I believe the CNS brain/cranium/atlas of a large croc to be more like cigarette-packet size. The shot will invariably be made from a very steady rested ambush position. A good DR (..and a good DR shooter!) should be able to manage this out to 100 yds, but closer is better of course!

If a second rifle is taken, then an accurate scoped medium-bore bolt-gun is a better option for croc without doubt.

But speaking personally, I wouldn't 'handicap' myself on buff etc with a medium-bore bolt-gun just because a croc was on licence!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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9.3x57
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Re: Gun Choice for Lion, buffalo, hippo, croc and plains gam [Re: Marrakai]
      #99858 - 21/03/08 11:20 AM

Marrakai, I bet there are very many, repeat, very many fellows who simply cannot, repeat, cannot, hit a cigarette pack at 100 yards from a rest every time with an open-sighted .450/.470 class double rifle. Heck, I reckon there are quite a few guns that don't possess the mechanical accuracy to get that job done every time.

Begs the question though and a good one, what would you guys with lion experience think should be a "Shooting Test" minimum requirement for a guy with a big double and lion on the menu?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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