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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns

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gunbug
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Loc: british columbia
Pump Shotguns Opinion
      #99026 - 12/03/08 12:09 PM

Hi: I would like some opinions on pump shotguns [reliability, function,strength etc]especially interested in opinions of people like DarylS that have used them in police,and bear deffence situations. Thanks Dan

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xausa
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: gunbug]
      #99041 - 12/03/08 03:07 PM

My first skeet gun, bought 44 years ago, was a 12 gauge Model 12 Winchester. Since then it has been joined by a Model 12 riot gun (ex-police department) and a 20 gauge Model 12, plus a 12 gauge Model 37 Ithaca, with a Cutts Compensator, and a Browning 3 1/2" 12 gauge, which I use for duck and goose hunting. Since I grew up shooting a Browning five shot automatic, at first I had to remind myself to operate the slide action, but it soon became a conditioned reflex, even though my other guns are all doubles of one kind or another. I find them good pointing guns, very easy to operate and very rugged. I don't know what else you need in a repeating shotgun.

I think pumps and automatics tend to be a bit on the heavy side for quail hunting, where a lot of walking is involved, but for stationary hunting, like dove or duck hunting, they are ideal. A Model 12, with six in the magazine and one in the chamber is a truly formidible defense weapon, especially loaded with 00 Buck.


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: xausa]
      #99050 - 12/03/08 10:11 PM

Gunbug, amongst others I have a Remington 870 pump as a "work horse", i.e shooting around water, messy work etc. It is bullet proof and I recommend them. You can probably easily get other barrels where you live (more difficult here in Spain) so if you had a 26" barrel for birds and a 20" barel with sights you can shoot anything out to 80yds with the right ammo. I just wish the stock on mine was longer, it has a daft LOP for me. I am sure you can also get an add on synthetic stock easily as well. best, Mike

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #99053 - 12/03/08 10:34 PM

870 Remington was issue to a lot of forward scouts ect in Vietnam.
I have never ever seen one malfunction or break down.
The main load used was 00 Buck with devastating results.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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DarylS
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #99075 - 13/03/08 01:49 AM

M870 is the premium 'combat' shotgun. 6 sils with 00 buck at 25 yards in 2 seconds. I taught the course. My riot and perimeter security squads were good.
: I've still not seen anyone with an automatic even come close to the above timing.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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gunbug
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: DarylS]
      #99105 - 13/03/08 09:13 AM

Thank You all i will be shopping for an 870 in May

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: gunbug]
      #99166 - 14/03/08 01:46 AM

Daryl, could you really hit 6 torso sils in 2 seconds ??!! I sure as hell wouldn't want to be on your wrong side , I couldn't work the slide that fast. I don't use mine much, thats incredible. I used to have a video in black and white of some big chap in the states who could throw 7 clays up in the air from one hand and shoot them all with his pump before any hit the ground, I think he was using a Model 12. Unfortunately I have lost it, it was unbelievable.

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Marrakai
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #99226 - 14/03/08 11:14 PM

Only thing I've heard from those I trust is to get a Remmie 870 and forget the rest.
Nothing but criticism about the cheaper variants (Bentleys etc) with the single actuating rod on one side.

Sounds like Al has had to put the 870 to the ultimate test....

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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9.3x57
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: Marrakai]
      #99232 - 15/03/08 12:20 AM

870 is a great shotgun, no doubt about it. Maybe the best, certainly one of the top three pumps.

Only problem I've seen with with them is the shell stop/action release if the trigger group is installed incorrectly {actually, quite easy to do}.

I've owned them but never liked them much merely because of the stock shape, for me. We have Ithaca 37's. This gun has a single action bar and a very reliable gun with a completely different stock shape and handling characteristics from the 870. The whole single action bar issue is so overblown. I have never seen "binding" or any other problem caused by a single action bar as described in old Remington advertisements. I have seen a problem or two with Ithacas also, just like with all mechanical things.

Ithacas have also been used by various police and military. Good guns.

But then, so are Mossbergs.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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xausa
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99240 - 15/03/08 02:31 AM

Another advantage of the Model 37 is that it's ambidextrous, with the live shells going in and the fired cases going out the bottom of the action. It is a John Browning invention, originally built by Remington as the Model 17 and presently manufactured by Browning as the BPS. I have used more than one for years.

However, I have to make a pitch for the Winchester Model 12, with its voluminous magazine capacity and its lack of a trigger disconnect. Just pull the trigger once, hold it back, and work the slide, the gun will fire every time the bolt closes. Every other slide action shotgun I am aware of requires the trigger to be released and pulled for each shot.


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9.3x57
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: xausa]
      #99243 - 15/03/08 02:42 AM

Quote:

Another advantage of the Model 37 is that it's ambidextrous, with the live shells going in and the fired cases going out the bottom of the action. It is a John Browning invention, originally built by Remington as the Model 17 and presently manufactured by Browning as the BPS. I have used more than one for years.

However, I have to make a pitch for the Winchester Model 12, with its voluminous magazine capacity and its lack of a trigger disconnect. Just pull the trigger once, hold it back, and work the slide, the gun will fire every time the bolt closes. Every other slide action shotgun I am aware of requires the trigger to be released and pulled for each shot.




Ithaca 37's are slam firerers, too. Same deal, hold the trigger and the hammer follows the bolt into battery like a M12.

Don't forget John Pedersen and the 37, too. Must defend a fellow American of Scandihoovian descent! Not quite up to Browning's level but a great inventor in his own right. I believe he was involved in the original design of the 17 for Remington.

And yes, a fellow has to look long and hard to beat a Model 12...or a 97 for that matter.

Winchester had a 97 in their ammo plant they used to test shtogun shells. I have read it was used to fire over 1 million rounds of ammunition in its service with the company.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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jaguarxk120
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99255 - 15/03/08 09:22 AM

Please note the Ithaca 37 doe's not slam fire. As the slide moves forward pulling the bolt into battery the hammer drops as the bolt locks into place. The hammer does not follow the bolt. TF

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9.3x57
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: jaguarxk120]
      #99260 - 15/03/08 11:15 AM

Quote:

Please note the Ithaca 37 doe's not slam fire. As the slide moves forward pulling the bolt into battery the hammer drops as the bolt locks into place. The hammer does not follow the bolt. TF




Not trying to be a troublemaker here, but are you saying the gun cannot be fired by holding the trigger down while working the slide?

If so, you are incorrect.

You ARE correct in saying that the bolt locks before the hammer impacts the firing-pin, if that is your point. Anything else would be a disaster.

If you stoke the thing full of shells, snick the safety off and hold the trigger down while vigorously tromboning the slide, it goes "Bang" every time.

I know because I just did it out the back door with one of mine.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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jaguarxk120
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99264 - 15/03/08 12:22 PM

What I'm saying is with the trigger pulled, the hammer will fall as the bolt locks up. Not follow the bolt as the action is closed. The Ithaca 37's were noted for this type of operation and many took advantage of it. Tom F

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9.3x57
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: jaguarxk120]
      #99292 - 15/03/08 11:55 PM

jaguar:

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, that is correct. The effect is the same as a "slam fire" and in fact in essence that is what happens from a practical standpoint, just like the 12's in that the gun can be fired by merely holding the trigger and racking the slide. A Winchester Model 12 also fires from a bolt-locked condition as well. As mentioned, if a gun fired otherwise {before bolt was completely locked} a catastrophic event would occur.

As Xausa says, most other pump shotguns have trigger disconnects that prevent trigger-held-down-slide-racking-fire {AKA "slamfiring"}.

I personally do not believe the Ithaca 37 was the reason for Remington's successful demonization of the single action bar. There were in the 1900-1950 period several other pumpguns that had single action bars that were not as reliable as the Ithaca. I have never seen a case of "binding" {I think that was the old Remington slick term for it} but I have seen Stevens 520's where the single action bar just plain came loose and essentially detached from the bolt carrier. I've never seen that in a Remington 870, Mossberg 500 or an Ithaca.

One thing an old Ithaca has all over the Remington is the lack of weight. Pick up and old 20 ga 2 3/4" Ithaca 37 and you will hardly believe you just picked it up!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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jaguarxk120
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99297 - 16/03/08 01:14 AM

I have the model 37 in 16 gauge, when you pick it up it just feels right, not too bulky, won't over swing come's right up and points great. TF

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taw1126
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: gunbug]
      #99299 - 16/03/08 01:40 AM

Quote:

Thank You all i will be shopping for an 870 in May



I've recently been looking at pump shotguns, not because I'm unhappy with my Benelli Nova, but because I wanted a short defense/buckshot barrel and Benelli doesn't see fit to market spare barrels...the ones you can find are as much as a new shotgun.

I was initially looking at the Remington 870 Marine Magnum and the 870 XCS Marine Magnum...supposedly the best 870's from a corrosion resistance standpoint. I was somewhat surprised to find out that the 870 Police shotguns are constructed differently (better) and even have their own assembly area. I decided to go with an 870 Police instead of one of the Marine Magnums. The only real drawback is that they are a little harder to find, and if you want an extended magazine you'll have to find the parts yourself.

This is from Remington's law enforcement division:

Important differences between Remington 870 Police and 870 Express shotguns
The 870 Express has been an important part of Remington’s offering to the sporting market. It was designed to meet a price point in the commercial market while still providing classic 870 functionality. All of Remington’s 870’s have interchangeable parts, even if they have cosmetic differences. It is also important to note that many manufacturers use the 870 Express platform for their Police / Combat models. Without exception, every manufacturer who utilizes our 870 platform serves to upgrade their system to a more efficient, street worthy platform.
While the 870 Express is still an 870, the best pump shotgun on the market, there are some very important cosmetic and functional differences between it and the 870 Police. To our customers in Law Enforcement, Military, Corrections, and Security, whose lives depend upon the unfailing performance of Remington shotguns, the Police modifications are of paramount importance.
Synopses of the variances are provided below.
• 870 Police shotguns go thru a special 23 station check list – ranging from visual
inspection, functional testing, test firing, and final inspection.
• All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY.
This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the
same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.
• All parts that enter the “special build area” are visually inspected by hand to ensure
top quality and functionality.
• Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer
magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.
• A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5
and 8 lbs.
• A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it
will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive
feeding when using heavier payload rounds.
• Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking
mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism
can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the
appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.
• The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police
shotgun vehicle racks.
• The Police shotguns utilize the heavy duty SPEEDFEED Stocks and Fore-ends.
• The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without
physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.
• The Express model has a BEAD BLAST BLUE finish while the Police models utilize
either High Luster bluing or Parkerization.
• The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a
compressed metal housing.
• The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction
with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock
down as used on the Express system.
• The receivers used in Police guns are “vibra honed” to smooth out rough finishes
and remove burrs before parkerization or bluing.
• Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal
cast which are utilized on the Express models.


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9.3x57
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: taw1126]
      #99302 - 16/03/08 01:59 AM

Taw, you bring up a good point. An 870 is NOT an 870...

...and neither is the Mossberg 500. Military Mossbergs have several design features commercial ones do not; metal trigger group instead of plastic for example. As an aside, I really hate when companies take a great old gun and then use the past to trick new buyers. Taw, you expose Remington's duplicity for what it is in this regard. They are not alone.

Vibra-honing in 870's was for many years standard on all guns, dumped with the cheapening of the Express. Among other things.

Another bad feature of the Express is that the beadblasting blue is just that, and I have seen many rusted Express guns. It is not a durable finish though it looks similar to Parkerizing/phosphating, but is not. In fact, blue is most protective over a polished finish and of course, modern bluing/blacking is not very protective anyway.

Due to the roughening of the metal, though, an Express gun takes paint quite well if degreased with acetone and painted. A good, high quality spray paint works, tho my truck paint/baby powder mix is excellent and very tough for such applications.

The first Expresses were more or less merely rough-finished 870's. Current Expresses appear to be made with cheap parts that may effect performance. I wouldn't buy an Express gun personally, but everyone has their own opinions for sure.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99362 - 16/03/08 10:33 PM

The 870 I'm talking about was manufactured in the 60's and never ever malfunctioned and is probably still going strong today.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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9.3x57
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #99368 - 16/03/08 11:25 PM

Quote:

The 870 I'm talking about was manufactured in the 60's and never ever malfunctioned and is probably still going strong today.
Al




Al, I believe you!

I bought an 870 in about 1979 or so. It was a really well-made gun. Comparing that gun {or the earlier ones like yours} to a current Express is shocking.

Piggybacking on your point here, old pumpguns in the States can frequently be had for cheap, especially with 2 3/4 inch chambering. Truth is, for most hunting and defense work, the 2 3/4 inch chambering is no handicap, and in my opinion a 30+ year-old 870 or Ithaca or 40-year-old High Standard even with blue wear and external "bruises" would be the hands-down winner over a modern Express for my money.

Incidently, I read an article years ago that quoted a military test of pumpguns back in the early 60's or so. Best gun tested was indeed the High Standard. IIRC, Rem 870 came in more or less second place and the Ithaca 37 next. The High Standard is very similar to the Mossberg in engineering and design {did Mossberg steal the design from HS???} except the HS was an all-steel gun. I have actually only seen a few, not many, but they were a very well constructed pumpgun. The 870 had one very significant advantage over both, Remington's production capacity, and at the time modern facilities.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (16/03/08 11:44 PM)


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MacNaughton360
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: 9.3x57]
      #102747 - 18/04/08 10:17 AM

I have a Magnum 870 12 I bought used in about 1973, when I was still in high school.
The only hiccup this gun has ever done is it stalled when a leaky reload allowed a #9 shot behind a shell stop. I'd love to have all of the various shells I've put through it over the years back in my posession. I've used it for trap, skeet, sporting clays, combat games, doves, ducks, geese, rabbits, and whitetail deer (14 or so). I have a riot barrel, standard smoothbore slug barrel, ribbed Remchoke barrel,ribbed skeet barrel, and a Hastings Paradox Rifled Slug barrel with a cantilever scope mount and an Aimpoint on board. If I had to pare the herd down to one shotgun, (heaven forbid!) that would be the one, as there is nothing more versatile, reliable, and extra barrels can sometimes be aquired for a very reasonable price on the used market.

Of the obsolete ones, another sweet pump is the Remington 31. No reasonable way to lengthen the magazine tube, but a very reliable unit. Even pieced-together rustbuckets are some of the smoothest actions there are. I have a field gun someone had a Simmons rib put on that I used at Purdue's Trap & Skeet club when I was a student there that is slick enough to shuck out the shell onto the ground if you were to fire it one-handed at an overhead starling. Extra barrels are harder to get for these, especially with the demise of the good parts on eBay. The single operating rod has never been a problem for me, they always pump. Of these, I have 4 12's and a 20. There are probably 15 or so 31's in my immediate circle of friends. I'm told that Remington dropped the 31 about 1948 or so as too expensive to manufacture. Almost all of the innards are machined. I still see plain ones at gun shows fairly often. A local gun shop had a riot gun for quite awhile marked U.S. and with a flaming bomb.


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bigmaxx
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: MacNaughton360]
      #103082 - 21/04/08 10:33 PM

i have a magnum 870 wingmaster and aside from a recent parkerizing, has functioned flawlessly since my dad purchased it in the late 60's. i have fired countless 3" magnum loads and anything else i could get in it. i now hunt with a benelli but the 870 is equipped with a choate extension and stock set and loaded with magnum buckshot at my bedside. benelli is in the safe unloaded...

--------------------
One day at a time...


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DarylS
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #103117 - 22/04/08 02:43 AM

Quote:

Daryl, could you really hit 6 torso sils in 2 seconds ??!! I sure as hell wouldn't want to be on your wrong side , I couldn't work the slide that fast. I don't use mine much, thats incredible. I used to have a video in black and white of some big chap in the states who could throw 7 clays up in the air from one hand and shoot them all with his pump before any hit the ground, I think he was using a Model 12. Unfortunately I have lost it, it was unbelievable.



; Spot-on, Mike. About all of my guys could do it in 3 to 3 1/2 seconds. I practised more than they did as my practise ammo was free - lots of it. 4 days on, 4 off left lots of time to shoot. Actually, I managed this with an old JC Higgins, single rail and vent rib I'd shortened to 22" barrel. I was in the Force (RCMPolice) at that time. I practised with trap loads, then moved to buck and slugs after getting it to sing. The M870's we used in the Corrections branch seemed to work a bit smoother, but were a bit lighter than the Higgins. It was a tradeoff. The most fun was the rack of six steel plates I built for my litle combat matches between my guys and the local detachment. The plates, being much smaller than a silouhette demaned tighter control. 3 empties in the air was a rule. That happens and the time shrinks to 2 seconds for 6.
: It's totally a matter of timing as the slide must lock before you can pull the trigger. Pull it too soon and the gun won't fire when it's in battery. Both the old Higgins and the newer (1970's M 870's) worked well in this type of shooting.
: Once you're 'primed' the recoil of each shot helps stroke the slide back. Bringing the barrle back on target out of recoil, slams the trombone back, chambering the next. It isn't a consious working of the action, just bambambambambambam. The rate of fire sounds similar a WW1 airctaft machine gun with interuptor gear, but is actually only 180 rounds a minute.
: Three of us were out on the jail range practising with the Rem's one day, and the inmates thought I'd inventoried a full auto 12 bore machine gun for tower duty.
: I rememeber seeing the run by Ad Topperwien (or some other MFG'r Pro on the clays with a M12 when I was a kid. This was my inspiration, first with the JC Higgins, then with the m870's, afterall, it's only timing with the non-slam-fires like Ad used. Of course, the same clay thrown stunt is done today by several shooters- mostly baby boomers, of course.
: This all sort of reminded me that when one of "us" was in the towers, the inmates didn't even look at the fence.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: DarylS]
      #108549 - 30/06/08 11:39 AM

Dad bought me my first shotgun in 1963, it was a plain jane 870 Remington and the only time it ever jammed on me was with some old paper hull shells that had gotten damp and had swelled. Other than that one time, which was my fault for trying to shoot them, it never failed me. I once had three dead Pheasants in the air all at the same time! They had been pushed to me by other hunters in our party. I doubt that I could have done that with ANY other shotgun! Bob H.

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wildfowl
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Re: Pump Shotguns Opinion [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #108784 - 03/07/08 02:24 AM

If you are shopping for an 870, try to locate one of the older Wingmasters. They were finished better, inside and out. You should have little problems from them.

The newer ones (and especially the Express guns) have some QC issues. First thing I would do with a new one is replace the plastic mag follower with a metal one (cures a lot of the feeding problems).

All in all, the 870 is still probably the most reliable current production pump shotgun, and the great thing is that there are a ton of aftermarket products for them too.


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