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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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hoppdoc
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50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND??
      #98317 - 04/03/08 08:30 PM

I have seen pictures from Alaska of folks shooting Bear with 50 BMG's.

http://www.barrettrifles.com/pdf/Manual-95.pdf

Rumor has it this cartridge is illegal in Africa because of its military roots--- I dunno, but am sure someone will!

Is the big 50 a legit hunting rifle?
Analyze your feelings--
Is it precise enough? Yes
Is it portable? Yes
Can it be had in a bolt magazine gun? Yes
Can it be loaded with "hunting bullets? Yes

Or does it foul out for other reasons?
Is it too heavy for one man to carry long distances(like a 600 Nitro,700 nitro, or 4 or 8 bore would be)?
The cartridge is not "sporting"?
It can't be used to hunt, only shoot!!

All this said, a friend has a 50 and I really like shooting it out to 500 yds, I think 50's are a blast!!

--------------------
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9.3x57
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #98341 - 05/03/08 12:44 AM

Most of the rifles come in at weights that exceed the legal maximum for hunting rifles here in Idaho {16 pounds}.

Bullet selection is critical due to the terrific trauma that can be produced. In fact, I have always wondered if a conviction of game meat wastage could be obtained if the game department wanted to put the kibosh on certain calibers, this or one of the slightly shorter wildcats being the target of such a charge. Here in Idaho, it is illegal to waste meat from big game animals taken.

As far as the cartridge and rifle is concerned, not hamstrung by any legal issues, Who cares? If it works and a fellow doesn't mind packing the thing around, go for it.

I have mulled over getting one from time to time to be set up on a platform above my corals. Shots on the treeline vary from 1,000 yards to something like 1,800. a curiousity, but really, this one goes beyond my area of interest. They are neat to shoot but the weight and blast make for an experience that is interesting but does not fall within my own level of enjoyment regards hunting.

I can see a few, although admittedly very few, applications where such a gun would come in very handy indeed though, and ammo is cheap, too.

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xausa
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98344 - 05/03/08 01:17 AM

9ThreeXFifty7

Years ago in the American Rifleman there was printed a sequence of photographs showing your fellow Idahoan, Elmer Keith, shooting a Mauser single shot anti-tank rifle which had been rebarrelled to .50 BMG. Elmer was shooting off sandbags placed on the roof of a car, I believe, and the second photograph showed the rifle in full recoil and Elmer's signature ten gallon hat flying through the air. The next month someone wrote in and remarked that he was glad that Elmer had finally found a cartridge powerful enough to dispatch a sick jack rabbit.

I once toyed with the idea of building a rifle using the .50 caliber cartridge developed as a spotting round in conjunction with the 106mm recoilless rifle. This was a normal .50 caliber BMG case reduced in length and capacity to produce a muzzle velocity and trajectory identical with that of the 106mm projectile. The idea was to fire tracers at the target using the .50 caliber spotting rifle, which was parallel mounted on the side of the 106mm tube, and as soon as the tracer hit the target, to fire the 106mm round, which would strike at the same spot. The same knob traversed the weapon and fired both the spotting round and the main tube.

I decided, however, that if I was going to shoot a 750 grain bullet, I would prefer it to be a larger diameter than .50 caliber, and that was the genesis of my rimless .577 round.


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szihn
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: xausa]
      #98347 - 05/03/08 01:36 AM

Well, there are mixed feeling about this with many hunters. Some feel it's unfair for those to shoot game at 1 mile, and screw up the hunt/stalk for those that want to get closer.

Others feel that it's no more unfair then allowing horses to go into wilderness areas but no allow motorized vehicles.

Keeping horses is expensive.
Shooting 50 BMGs are too.

Both are "rich man's games" to some people's thinking. I don't see it that way, but that what we hear thrown about.


I am glad I don't have to make that call.


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Tatume
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: szihn]
      #98350 - 05/03/08 01:56 AM

My concern would be for my own safety. If I were stalking an animal and someone took a shot at the same animal from over a mile away, would I be at risk? If we were a couple of hundred yards from each other, I would expect to see him (probably), but I don't usually watch for other hunters who are miles distant.

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9.3x57
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: szihn]
      #98351 - 05/03/08 01:56 AM

Xausa: I remember that very photo! It should be noted that the old German 13mm anti-tank round as fired from the Mauser single shot was said to be a grim experience indeed and the .50 BMG is quite similar in performance.

Shooting one with one of the current crops of brakes is no problem. Recoil is not that great, though muzzle blast is almost atomic.

Yes, the spotter round is one and other totally wildcat rounds exist, too, but require such a massive action that if the case is shortened too much it makes more sense to go with a smaller case that allows for a much less obese action.

Szihn, the guns are expensive, but shooting them is surprisingly cheap. Various milsurp components can be had for less than those of many other big bores.

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Shackleton
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98355 - 05/03/08 02:15 AM

Done right, a long shot can be almost as sporting as a "true" hunt-knowing how to adjust your windage, etc. I read an article about elk hunting with the .50, and the people the article was about hunted in a 3 person team-one to use the rangefinder, one to watch the shot path for any sign of another person in the way or trying to stalk, and one to shoot. Wouldn't hunt that way myself, as I'll always see the .50 as a target rifle or machine gun, but who am I to say someone else shouldn't do it?(especially if done right). We can't use rifles for hunting anything but furbearers in IA anyway-other than the extreme southern part of the state. The funny thing is, that we can use that same .30-06 on a coyote but not on a deer. It would be an expensive trip for me to use a .50 for a hunt. Looks like I'll be sticking to handgun range.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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xausa
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Shackleton]
      #98366 - 05/03/08 04:37 AM

Did the article about 1000 yard hunting happen to mention how you follow up wounded game shot from that distance? Even a .50 BMG takes appreciable time to arrive at the target, and unless the target is entirely immobile, it can easily move enough to cause a miss, or much worse, a potentially, but not immediately, fatal wound.

Add to that the factor that many of these 1000 shots I have read about are across canyons, which would add even more to the time a shooter would need to arrive at the scene of his hit.

One more attempt to replace skill with technology.


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gryphon
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: xausa]
      #98367 - 05/03/08 04:58 AM

Just more rubbish (1000 yard animal shots)

Show me the kid that comes home with a pair of rabbits taken honestly with his .22 rifle rather than some wealthy (usually fat) .50 cal owner with his latest 1000 yard deer kill!

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9.3x57
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: gryphon]
      #98369 - 05/03/08 05:20 AM

I do not want to be linked with supporting the notion of 1,000 yard deer shooting. As I mentioned, when you have a place like mine where you have a couple miles of fringe and critter activity all along it, the notion of "what if" has to cross your mind at some point.

As I have stated before, I shoot enough at 200 yards to keep my deer shooting as close to 100 as I can!

There are so many "little details" that go along with 1,000 yard big game shooting as others here are mentioning and alluding to;

Time-to-impact, wind, followup, range estimation, etc. Truth is, even if a fellow could eliminate every element but the distance to the target around here, FOR THE MOST PART, it would very frequently be difficult just to find THE SPOT where the critter was standing at the shot. It is not as easy as it sounds, sometimes even with a 200 yard shot. There can be a lot of terrain between the shooter and 1,000 yards out.

But, yes, there are places where it is done, and I guess in reality, if we can categorically state that the shooting of big game at 1,000 yards or something like it is unethical, so, in my opinion, is shooting only a box or two of bullets before hunting season commences. In reality, i have more a problem with the latter because that practice, in fact, loses more game every year than the thousand yarders if only because of frequency.

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hoppdoc
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: gryphon]
      #98370 - 05/03/08 05:24 AM

Shooting 50's and hitting with them are great fun but hunting with a 25-30+ pound weapon is a bit much and not feasible or practical.

Said again, I feel there is a distinct difference between shooting and hunting!! Rich mans game? Maybe, but then Double rifles are too. Accurate shooting at a distance with a 50 isn't hunting but can be a very satisfying experience!!

Yes, almost as much fun as a Double!
Contrast that to hunting with a Double where you have the hunt close and personal AND the expensive firearm!!

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mickey
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #98413 - 05/03/08 03:37 PM

A few years ago I was hunting on the Noatak river in Alaska. A group of guys from Grizzly Arms in AZ were at the main camp and the owner brought along one of his .50 rifles. These are the ones where the recoil pad is on the back of the bolt and the rifle is a bull pup design.

With tripod the rifle weighed around 25-27 pounds if I remember.

They set it up on top of the cook shack and waited for a Caribou to cross the river. Finally, after about 3 hours, a small herd passed. The shooter shot a decent but not great bull at a lasered 1285 yards. He hit just after it emerged from the river and the shock knocked the water off the bull and it disappeared in a mist of wet.

I don't think it even twitched but at almost a mile who could tell.

Pretty impressive shooting as the .50 doesn't have a whole lot better trajectory than a 30-06. It just carries energy a bit better.

The funny thing was there were about 10 guys in camp and no one wanted to go hunting, everyone wanted to stay and watch.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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Kalunga
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: mickey]
      #98415 - 05/03/08 03:55 PM

How about a double in .50 BMG ? One would be the star at any shooting range with such a big bore !!!

Kalunga


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DoubleD
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: mickey]
      #98416 - 05/03/08 04:11 PM

I have posted this picture here before.



This is a Montana rock chuck hit at about 250 yards with a 50 BMG. Look closely and you can see the bullet hit on the neck.

I was spotting the shot. I saw the hit. The shooter thought he missed and hit high. The chuck never moved.

The rifle weighs just under 16 pounds. It is a scratch built rifle. It has a muzzle brake made by upscalling a KDF brake--doubled if memory serves me right.

This rifle also killed a Mule Deer. Ho hum.

There are better game killing calibers for North America, including those for 1000 yard shots.

Available bullet construction limits the 50 BMG to military and target use.

When back in Montana, I frequently take shots at 200, 300, 400, 500 yards or more at rock chucks and gophers. I have only taken one shot in the recent past at just under 350 yards at a Mule Deer. I wish I hadn't. It took almost three hours to catch up with that animal after I broke his hind leg and finish him. If you miss by a MOA on a gopher or rock chuck at 350 yards it is a clean miss. On large game it is a cripple...

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: xausa]
      #98418 - 05/03/08 04:52 PM

Quote:

Did the article about 1000 yard hunting happen to mention how you follow up wounded game shot from that distance? Even a .50 BMG takes appreciable time to arrive at the target, and unless the target is entirely immobile, it can easily move enough to cause a miss, or much worse, a potentially, but not immediately, fatal wound.

Add to that the factor that many of these 1000 shots I have read about are across canyons, which would add even more to the time a shooter would need to arrive at the scene of his hit.

One more attempt to replace skill with technology.






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John aka NitroX

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: gryphon]
      #98419 - 05/03/08 04:53 PM

Quote:

Just more rubbish (1000 yard animal shots)

Show me the kid that comes home with a pair of rabbits taken honestly with his .22 rifle rather than some wealthy (usually fat) .50 cal owner with his latest 1000 yard deer kill!






--------------------
John aka NitroX

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9.3x57
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: NitroX]
      #98423 - 05/03/08 06:34 PM

Interesting how "1,000 yard shooting" always seems to go hand-in-hand with the .50 BMG.

I suppose a fellow could use Mr Browning's .50 for shooting deer at 100 yards or less from his favorite ground blind...

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Shackleton
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98502 - 06/03/08 12:59 PM

Good points, especially on the issue of following wounded game. I never looked at that way, just looked at the skill involved with hitting at 1000 plus. You turned me around, and for the same reason I don't bowhunt-I know I can hit a deer-size target but am not confident I can consistently hit the kill zone with a bow. Doesn't change that I'd like to see what I can hit on a target range with a .50 though(never tried anything beyond 300, would make for a fun day). As far as hunting, I'll stick to the "conventional" stuff too.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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hoppdoc
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Shackleton]
      #98521 - 06/03/08 05:49 PM

Got no dogs in the fight, 50 cal or otherwise but if you just do the math---

If you have a one MOA rifle(very accurate indeed) you could expect a 5 inch group at 500 yds with PERFECT conditions and great shooting.Add it human frailty and weather conditions and you can balloon that 40% to 7 inches in diameter easy.

Past 500 yards the math goes against you-- AT 1000 yds you have only a 10 inch circle of accuracy with maybe a 30-40% balloon due to other variables.Thats a "vital zone" of 13-14 inches which is ridiculous for a deer or an antelope.An elk with a 24" chest would have a vital zone of 1/3 of that depth or 8 inches. And your gonna shoot at that animal from 700-800 yd?? Crappy choice by my estimation and very possibly injuring the animal irresponsibly.The animal deserves better than that.

Warfare is different with different objectives. Wounding one individual can require 2 other to deal with him and decrease the force of your opposition(or so the song goes)
The human toso is upright and this gives a larger surface to strike vertically.Yada, Yada, Yada--

50's are great fun but not for hunting long range game in my book--just my personal opinion--

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Dphariss
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: mickey]
      #98896 - 10/03/08 12:35 PM

Quote:


<snip>

Pretty impressive shooting as the .50 doesn't have a whole lot better trajectory than a 30-06. It just carries energy a bit better.
<snip>




I think in practical use you will find the big slug does shoot significantly flatter. Especially at extended ranges.

Dan


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DarylS
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98898 - 10/03/08 12:48 PM

Quote:

Interesting how "1,000 yard shooting" always seems to go hand-in-hand with the .50 BMG.

I suppose a fellow could use Mr Browning's .50 for shooting deer at 100 yards or less from his favorite ground blind...



;
; Shooting at long range is a specialty of the .5 clubs around the States for sure. However - the current and past record bench rest records are very much small than the smallest group ever shot by a .5. The current 1st and 2nd place winners are .30 cal.. with 5 shot groups of under and just over 1 1/2". I think the current .5 bench rest rifles are still struggling between 3 and 5 inches. It was only a couple years ago, that the smallest .5 group was around 5 1/2" for 5 shots.
; The record 1 shot, 1 kill Taliban still sits with a Canadian snipe with a .5 - somewhere between 2,400 and 2,500 yards. This is a game that nothing smaller cannot compete in - at least .5 is where the match bullets capable of maintaining 1/3MOA at long ranges have some emphasis.
; I suspect a .416 to .458 calibre wildcat could be made to work, but as yet, there is no work being done with BR quality bullets in those calibres as far as I know. - Could be, though.
; I should add to this, sniper work for freedom is where the .5 belongs and due to the private use of the round in clubs for long range TARGET shooting, the true accuracy potential of the round has been brought out.
; If someone wants to use one for shooting big game out to 300 yards, I'm all for it along with about any other round suitable - to 300 yards. I do not condone shooting anything but Taliban and El K's any further out.
: Too much happens between the trigger pull and the bullet hit. Even at 300, the animal can move and make a gut shot.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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hoppdoc
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: DarylS]
      #98901 - 10/03/08 02:02 PM

50's for hunting game??
Inside a quarter mile at nondangerous game--ok

For DG such a bolt could be a liability with the time to set it up to provide b/u 100 yds and in.Rather have the PH hsve a non 50 big bolt or a stopping Double--

Supposedly some guides have used them for b/u on big bears in Alaska--I DON'T think they should make them illegal!!

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Ripp
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: DarylS]
      #98903 - 10/03/08 02:19 PM

Read an article in the past few weeks where a Taliban was smacked at a bit over 1300 meters with a .50 --top half of torso dropped over railing ...

Also read that Barrett is/has worked up a necked down version in .416--suppose to be the "real deal"...

Ripp

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DoubleD
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Ripp]
      #98904 - 10/03/08 02:50 PM

Quote:

Read an article in the past few weeks where a Taliban was smacked at a bit over 1300 meters with a .50 --top half of torso dropped over railing ...

Ripp




Ripp I would take that article with a grain salt...the half inch hole is very effective...just not that effective.

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DD, Ret.


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hoppdoc
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: DoubleD]
      #98913 - 10/03/08 11:06 PM

You need to review the rounds the 50 sniper gun shoots--it shoots military rounds with exploding bullets.

To be convinced go to--( be prepared, real gory stuff)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZIJH4wvVng

Look closely, cause those are body parts you are seeing!!
I apologize if the video offends anyone--

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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Tatume
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #98914 - 10/03/08 11:22 PM

The world record for a ten-shot group at 1000 yards was 4.2 inches in 2003. What I find most remarkable about the accomplishment was that Kyle Brown set the record with a 6 mm BR rifle. Although made from a special parent case, the 6 mm BR has the appearance of a 308 Win shortened to 1.5 inches and necked down. The whole loaded cartridge would drop into a 50 BMG case and rattle around like loose change in a coffee can. Take care, Tom

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DarylS
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Tatume]
      #98923 - 11/03/08 01:04 AM

Hoppdoc - those look surprisingly like rock chuck videos I've seen before. Anything but a match bullet lacks the accuracy to dispatch humans at long range - 1,000 yards and beyond. I would be mightly surprised to learn of an explosive bullet that possessed that accuracy- mighty surprised. There was no explosion on those rockchucks, just the animals hide not being able to contain the shockwave tht accompanies the bullet. My Swift did the same thing to gophers at 50 yards. It takes a .300 mag or larger to do that to a rockchuck. The hide is tougher.
: I do not believe those were human targets - looked like large rodents to me.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DoubleD
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #98924 - 11/03/08 01:29 AM

Quote:

You need to review the rounds the 50 sniper gun shoots--it shoots military rounds with exploding bullets.

To be convinced go to--( be prepared, real gory stuff)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZIJH4wvVng

Look closely, cause those are body parts you are seeing!!
I apologize if the video offends anyone--




That video has been around a while and was debunked a long time ago...that come from a video on long rock chuck shooting from Dogbegone.com. If you watch this excerpt you will even see the same mountain from the flick you link to. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppx-kDb1xi4

What you see is Rock chucks exploding, not people...

I suppose under the right circumstances the Mk.211 Mod 0 round might explode in a person. They say it is not suppose to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8733668854193756605

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DD, Ret.


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DarylS
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: DoubleD]
      #98947 - 11/03/08 01:56 PM

That's where I saw it too.
: I suspect a .50 wouldn't do it, but a high expolsive 20 mm. might. The trouble? with us, is the long limbs and small central torsal, compared to a rock chuck's thick middle and short legs. The do blow nicely.
; About what the .220 swift did to the gophers - nothing but chunks.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: DarylS]
      #98960 - 11/03/08 10:10 PM

Read last evening--Barrett does indeed offer a 416 model---very impressive ballistics..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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bonanza
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Tatume]
      #99024 - 12/03/08 11:47 AM

The 50 BMG is an incredible cartridge and is safe at a rifle range. However, that puppy will travel 4.5 miles and land with over 6000 ft/lbs energy. Let's put this way: you never ever what one to "get away".

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rbt50
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #99327 - 16/03/08 06:24 AM

if you need a hunting bullet www.copperheadcustomswaging.com makes 50 bmg in lead tip.

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hoppdoc
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Posts: 1791
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: rbt50]
      #99330 - 16/03/08 07:36 AM

For those interested in Military variations-

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

and

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/50.htm

The XM1022 is a designated 50 BMG antipersonnel round--

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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rscott
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #100531 - 27/03/08 09:42 PM

in wyoming it is illegal to use FMJ bullets on big game and i'm not aware of any softpoints available for that cartridge. besides if you're shooting big game at 1000 yds. you're missing the fun of hunting and turning wild animals into nothing more than targets.

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hoppdoc
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: rscott]
      #100799 - 30/03/08 04:32 AM

Who says you can't have a 50 in a conventional bolt style??

Don't think I wanna shoot the lightweight version though--






--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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rscott
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Posts: 328
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #100800 - 30/03/08 05:05 AM

whats the eye relief on that scope?

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AzGuy
.333 member


Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 388
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #100803 - 30/03/08 05:21 AM

Quote:

Most of the rifles come in at weights that exceed the legal maximum for hunting rifles here in Idaho {16 pounds}.....




Effectively banning the 50 BMG cartirdge was exactly the intent of Idaho's G&F when they imposed this restriction. I for one, agree with their appraoch.

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!


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hoppdoc
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: rscott]
      #100810 - 30/03/08 06:31 AM

whats the eye relief on that scope?

***
Not enough for me!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
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Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #100815 - 30/03/08 07:15 AM

Quote:

whats the eye relief on that scope?

***
Not enough for me!!!




Maybe so, but the AR50 my buddy owns that I have shot some has a scope mounted similarly and the recoil is not much due to the soupcan on the spitting end.

Muzzle blast, however, simply swallows the shooter and is more than unpleasant. It is downright dangerous to anyone standing anywhere near the thing to the sides and back.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Dphariss
.300 member


Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #101177 - 02/04/08 08:33 AM

Quote:

You need to review the rounds the 50 sniper gun shoots--it shoots military rounds with exploding bullets.

To be convinced go to--( be prepared, real gory stuff)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZIJH4wvVng

Look closely, cause those are body parts you are seeing!!
I apologize if the video offends anyone--




If this is what I think it is, didn't bother looking, its been throughly discredited as being a 50 used on people. They are shooting rockchucks with a 6mm of some kind according to the guy that claimed to have made the video.
I can assure everyone here that a 50 BMG round will NOT blow people into chunks. I KNOW having searched several dead men shot with them back in my younger days. Shots to the abdomen with GI ball will simply pull a loop or 2 of intestine out the exit holes. The one that sticks in my mind took 2 about 4" apart, one right through the belt buckle, one cut the belt. The range was a hell of a lot less than 1000 more like 75. They don't go anywhere after being shot but they are not dismembered.

Dan


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Dphariss
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Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: bonanza]
      #101180 - 02/04/08 08:44 AM

Quote:

The 50 BMG is an incredible cartridge and is safe at a rifle range. However, that puppy will travel 4.5 miles and land with over 6000 ft/lbs energy. Let's put this way: you never ever what one to "get away".




I know at least some military ranges use elevation limiters on the barrel to prevent excess elevation when shooting the 50 BMGs. The military effective range of the cartridge is 2000 yards (tracer burnout point) as you point out it is "effective" far beyond this.
While this cartridge will likely kill anything on the planet at 1000 or even 2000 yards with proper shot placement I don't see the point.

Dan


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zimhunter
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Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 388
Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Dphariss]
      #101183 - 02/04/08 09:07 AM

About 30 or so years ago when I was transferred from Ohio to Pittsburgh the guy that moved me was from an outfit in Pittsburgh. When he saw my guns he took extra care with them and said would I like to hunt with him. He belonged to a club that he called the thousand yard club. The requirement was your shot had to be at least 1000yds or you paid a penalty. If memory serves he used a 300H&H. It's been a long time ago. He said he used an old military rangefinder on a tripod and set up on a powerline right of way and was usually successful. I never took him up on his offer.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: zimhunter]
      #102226 - 11/04/08 09:45 PM

The 50 BMG is a great hunting round !!!!

"JUST DEPENDS ON WHAT YOUR HUNTING"

Sadly Carlos isn't with us anymore.

Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


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Loc: Western Australia
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #102236 - 11/04/08 11:08 PM

[image][/image]

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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hoppdoc
.400 member


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Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #102274 - 12/04/08 08:58 AM

Disgusting if the Canadian government indeed holds this perverse PC attitude.

War is not for the faint hearted, but when you are committed to a war you must eradicate your enemy before he acts similarly toward you.It is disressing to troops to "sensitize" them when their mission is to kill the enemy efficiently.How can they believe their soldiers will act appropriately in war conditions??

IDIOTS!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (12/04/08 08:59 AM)


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Dphariss
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Reged: 18/04/06
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Loc: Montana
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #102998 - 20/04/08 04:06 PM

Quote:

Disgusting if the Canadian government indeed holds this perverse PC attitude.

War is not for the faint hearted, but when you are committed to a war you must eradicate your enemy before he acts similarly toward you.It is disressing to troops to "sensitize" them when their mission is to kill the enemy efficiently.How can they believe their soldiers will act appropriately in war conditions??

IDIOTS!!




When the "Wolves" are not around the sheep don't much like the sheepdog. But when the Wolf shows up then they want protected. If the "people" showing disrespect for their military had someone jabbing them in the a** with a bayonet they would be praying these same men would arrive and save their sorry butts. Some of the half-wits in the US are just as bad or worse.
Dan

Kipling put it this way:

TOMMY

I went into a public-'ouse, to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up and sez, we serve no red coats here
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an'Tommy that, an' Tommy go away,
But its Thank you, Mister Atkins, when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O its Thank you Mr Atkins, when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me.
They sent me to the gallery or round the music- 'alls,
But when it comes to fighting, Lord! They'll shove me in the stalls.
For its Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' Tommy wait outside,
But it's, Special train for Atkins, when the trooper's on the tide
the troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopships on the tide
O its Special train for Atkins, when the troopers on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap.
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business, then paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' Tommy, 'ows your soul?
But its Thin red line of heroes, when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's Thin red line of heroes, when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you.
An' if sometimes our conduct isn't all your fancy paints,
Why single men in barricks, don't grow into plaster saints.
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' Tommy, fall be'ind,
But its please to walk in front sir, when theres trouble in the wind.
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
Oh its please to walk in front sir, when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an'schools, an'fires an'all,
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face,
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' Chuck him out, the brute,
But its Saviour of 'is country, when the guns begin to shoot.
An' its Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please,
An Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool--- you bet that Tommy sees.

Rudyard Kipling


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bwananelson
.400 member


Reged: 08/10/07
Posts: 1195
Loc: DELTONA FLORIDA
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Dphariss]
      #102999 - 20/04/08 05:20 PM

i had a 50 you want to hunt with one,you got balls at 35lbs or more you have to be a horse to carry it to shoot it you need a tripod.mine went through a scope after 14 rounds soundrd like a babby rattle after i took it off.you will get pass throighs on elehhants and buffalos.and trucks,theres a reason it was designed for antiaircraft round.i can shoot a box of 470's maybe 12-15 bmg's.ands its ugly plain and simple but nice to say yea i had one

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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bwananelson
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Reged: 08/10/07
Posts: 1195
Loc: DELTONA FLORIDA
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: bwananelson]
      #103000 - 20/04/08 05:47 PM

Have any of you been in war or trained for it ,i was a paratrooper for the 82nd.you kill or be killed after you have a buddy killed near you you dont care you want to kill then all let god sort them out.you are sent to war to produce a body count the more the better.like that scene in that move when he was asked how can you kill women and children simple you dont lead them as much.every one there is a psssable enemy,you think they wear uniforms.those wars are gone.the modern camo is plain clothes.we should be there just mowing people down that will settle thing down.hit them hard fast with a goal of a total submisssion.thats what war is about not this police bullshit.these are soldiers not cops.lets just overrun the country and take what we want we are hated either way.the next country will think twice before taking us on.

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: bwananelson]
      #103007 - 20/04/08 10:15 PM

Some thoughts for those who detest the military and their role in history--




It is the
VETERAN
, not the
preacher,
who has
given us freedom of religion.

It is
the
VETERAN , not the
reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.

It is
the
VETERAN , not the
poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.

It is
the
VETERAN , not the
campus organizer,
who has given us freedom to assemble.

It is
the
VETERAN , not the
lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.


It is
the
VETERAN , not the
politician,
Who has given us the right to vote.

It
is the
VETERAN
who
salutes the Flag,

It is
the
veteran

who serves
under the Flag,



ETERNAL
REST GRANT THEM O LORD, AND LET PERPETUAL LIGHT SHINE UPON
THEM.


God
Bless them all!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: bwananelson]
      #103016 - 21/04/08 12:51 AM

I am in absolute agreement.

Same here.

Armed officers were tasked to follow a suspect the day after the latest London bombs.

He enters the tube system with a rucksack on.

"Stop him" is the order from some silly bitch of a female police commander " I dident tell them to shoot him" says she. What did she think that they would do, ask him politly to put up his hands.

He is dead and turns out he isent a bomber but an illlegal Brazillian immigrant.

Many, many, months later we are still ripping the arse out of this. Blaming the officers, suspending them, blaming the police.
What a crock of shit.

Bottom line is this.
If he hadent sneaked into our country illegaly he would still be alive.

If he had been a bomber, then those guys that shot him would have been heros.

We have gone so stupidly soft. How do you wipe out terrorists ?. Kill one, let them gather for one of those huge funerals that they have (we all see them on TV) and then lob a 1000lb smart bomb into the middle of them.
If you don't just get terrorists you get their supporters and the bitches that whelp them. Good riddence.
Destroy Al,jazera (spelling?) and all mouthpeices for terrorists.

You don't stop this nonsense by just getting the activists, you have to make the whole business so unpleasent for the populus that they will never support or assist them. Exactly what we did in Germany in 44-45.
Why is Germany peacefull and a democratic economic sucess. Because they learnt that any other course of action would bring retribution to terrible to contemplate. Same for Japan.

Pull all of our troops out, all our civilians out and burn Afganistan, Palastine, Iraq and Iran down to bedrock.

But then I'm a dinosaur.

Regards


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Shackleton
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Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 203
Loc: Iowa
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Bramble]
      #103968 - 01/05/08 10:56 AM



We have gone so stupidly soft. How do you wipe out terrorists ?. Kill one, let them gather for one of those huge funerals that they have (we all see them on TV) and then lob a 1000lb smart bomb into the middle of them.
If you don't just get terrorists you get their supporters and the bitches that whelp them. Good riddence.
Destroy Al,jazera (spelling?) and all mouthpeices for terrorists.

Not a bad idea, but whoever actually did that would probably be called a terrorist themselves. Even Osama thinks in his strange little head that he's doing the right thing. The problem with war is everybody thinks their side is right. It would be be more fun(but obviously not feasible) to put them all on an island together with the racial hate groups and let the problems sort themselves out.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Shackleton]
      #104070 - 02/05/08 09:52 AM

Quote:



Not a bad idea, but whoever actually did that would probably be called a terrorist themselves. Even Osama thinks in his strange little head that he's doing the right thing. The problem with war is everybody thinks their side is right.




Shackelton

The difference as I see it is that we are right. Frankly I could not waste a single moment considering what Osama bin Laden thinks. Hitler thought he was right does that mean that we have to allow a single moments justification to the holocaust?

We live in and defend pluralistic liberal democracies where we welcome people from other countries and allow them to worship their god/s as they wish without interference from the state or percicution by individuals. They, support a system that would have us ruled by a theocracy and our civil rights eliminated.
There is no middle ground here. It is not about race hate or anything like it, it is a battle for survival.
These are not people campainging for a homeland or anything to which we can acceed. They are campainging to end our way of life.
They will stop your wife of daughter driving a car, leaving the house without her face covered. They will make you pray to a foreign god or face execution.
They will close your church.
They will stop you drinking a beer.
They will stop you eating a ham sandwich.
They will stop your wife from attending a football match, or baseball match.
They will take away your guns.
They will take away your free speach.
They will remove your rights to a fair trial.

I suggest that the threat to our way of life is no different then and now.

As to being accused of terrorism oneself for the suggestion I made. History is written by the victor. We killed 100,00 civilians in a night in Dresden. The US killed I don't know how many in an instant at Hiroshima. Do we accuse the men that made those decisions of terrorism. No. Because it needed to be done.
Would I care that some muslim thought that I was a terrorist, not for a moment.
Would I care that some Lefty in the west thought that I was. No they feel the same if I shoot a deer, they hate me already, fuck 'em.


I am frankly sick and tired of US and UK forces not being able to find terrorists when journalists for the "Arab" news services are apparently from the footage they show, able to contact them at will. Great, put a tracker on the journalists and when they next meet with some killer of western civilians drop a smart bomb on the lot of them. Good riddence.

We are sending the bravest and the best of our boys to die fighting an unwinnable war in Afganistan and Iraq. Why is it unwinnable, because we fail to be ruthless enough to win. Move such population that do not wish to be involved in fighting into safe areas that are checked for arms. Then kill every man, woman, child, dog, cat, goat rat and mouse that lies outside of these areas. Destroy the poppy fields and let the decent people start again. Invest money in those that are left. Give them decent houses, running water, sewers cars and jobs. But never let them forget the price of coming to our countries and killing our wives and children.

If we don't do it now, our children and their children will never know what it is not to live in fear.

Regards


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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Bramble]
      #104113 - 02/05/08 07:31 PM

Quote:

History is written by the victor. We killed 100,00 civilians in a night in Dresden. The US killed I don't know how many in an instant at Hiroshima. Do we accuse the men that made those decisions of terrorism. No. Because it needed to be done.



Even the history as written by the victors has a consensus that this isn't true and wasn't necessary or desirable.

I don't discount the threat of terrorism, but if the threat was actually large enough to destroy a whole civilisation or way of life for a huge proportion of the world's population, then don't you think that the reaction would be much larger than it is, as was the case in WW2?

As for bombing funerals and journalists (who would die if a smart bomb were guided by a tracker that they were carrying), well I don't think that really merits serious discussion. Collateral damage may be unavoidable at times, but it is never excusable.

I do share your sene of frustration and think that the international community should be far more engaged rather than just reaping the potential future benefits of the efforts of others. However, I don't agree that the situation is unwinable, but I agree that without sufficient investment in infrastructure, the economy, poverty reduction and education, what is there to win?


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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #104148 - 03/05/08 08:54 AM

JH

Not Necessary and desirable.

Some historians do indeed hold that the war was sufficently close to its conclusion that the fire bombing of German cities was not necessary and did not materialy effect the moral of the German people. However, conversly, there are records that show that a massive number of 88mm flack guns were diverted to the defence of cities when they would otherwise have gone to be used as AT guns on the Russian front.

I am sorry if I was unclear. I wasent suggesting that journalists volentarily carry trackers, just that we plant them on them. It was entirly my intention that they be consumed in the resultant fireball.

As far as "collateral damage" is concerned. That is a wishy washy uphamism for killing civilians.
The reason that the reaction is not as it should be, or as it was in WW2, is that we are no longer led by people with the moral backbone to do what needs to be done. Nor have sufficent numbers of the general population in the UK and US been killed or directly touched by the war to raise the rage of the people. The media (please refer to above for my views on journalists)bombard us with images of individuals in these countries that are hurt by the actions that we do take. As Marshall McLuhan recognised the medium is what shapes our perception. Television lost Vietnam for the US, the troops that fought and died won, but television made that sacrifice meaningless in the body of a burnt child or a bomber shot in the head in a street.
As Stalin observed long before the advent of television "The death of a single individual is a tradegy. The death of a million is just a statistic"

Most of what we face now is because Jimmy Carter failed to launch massive strikes against Iran to free the hostages in the US embassy. His weakness encouraged the islamics and weakened the positions of those who followed who would retaliate against such actions.

As far as I am concerned their lives are entirly worthless and the loss of the entire population of Afganistan will not compensate for a single dead citizen of the UK or US. The only people who would loose out are the heroin dealers when their supply drys up.

If there are worthwhile people in these countries then they have a simple choice, move to an area under our protection and live a peacefull fulfilling life, or die. This was the lesson of the Malayan Emergency. Only by removing civilian support either voluntary or coerced from insurectionists, can they be destroyed. Although resettlment was unpopular at first the superior living conditions in the new guarded villages and compounds was so much better than that they had before most of the inhabitants came to prefer it to their former existence.

Why cannot I advocate destroying their "way of life" or "civilization" they constantly and openly threaten to do just that to us.
I do not hold life as sacriscant, either that of an animal or a human. We constantly destroy vermin when they threaten our agriculture and thus our "way of life", these are vermin and I owe them no more respect than a rat.
The "international community" is run by professional polititions. They are corrupt self serving whores. The son of the last UN secretary general was investigated for skimming billions of dollars from the oil for medicine scheme in Iraq. All hushed up and covered up. We finally get rid of Blair when the public is so fed up of the self serving grinning jackenape that he has to resign, next he is a "special envoy" to the middle east. Lunatics and asylems springs to mind.
The only engagment they will make is with the contents of their Swiss bank accounts.

I support the war, I support our troops and those of the US and commenwelth. But for the sake of love how many more boys have to come home in flag draped boxes before we do what must be done, for if we do not do it our grandchildren will have to.

I am not fustrated JH. I have a sense of terrible dread for what we will leave our children to face because of our lack of fortitude.

Regards


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Shackleton
.300 member


Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 203
Loc: Iowa
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Bramble]
      #104199 - 04/05/08 07:41 AM

Quote:

Quote:





The difference as I see it is that we are right. Frankly I could not waste a single moment considering what Osama bin Laden thinks. Hitler thought he was right does that mean that we have to allow a single moments justification to the holocaust?





good points, and no, I'm not trying to justify slaughters by any past or current world leader on the grounds that they thought their side was right(or to consider what Osama thinks)I'm just saying that when bombs
are used, even when necessary, accusation of the
T word rears its head. In these modern times, and as bad as a "traditional"war is, that's something to consider-especially considering how slanted the media can get with an article. It's easy to push a button and end off a few tons of explosives. We need to legally quiet down some of our own media before even thinking about a scenario like this. I'm not against freedom of the press, but sometimes the press abuses their own right.
As far as just bombing them all, war is sometimes necessary sure, but we need a balance somewhere. The pacifists have a point when they say killing for peace is like sex for chastity.

How'd we get from hunting with a .50 cal to this anyway?

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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Dphariss
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Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Shackleton]
      #104451 - 07/05/08 03:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:




The difference as I see it is that we are right. Frankly I could not waste a single moment considering what Osama bin Laden thinks. Hitler thought he was right does that mean that we have to allow a single moments justification to the holocaust?





good points, and no, I'm not trying to justify slaughters by any past or current world leader on the grounds that they thought their side was right(or to consider what Osama thinks)I'm just saying that when bombs
are used, even when necessary, accusation of the
T word rears its head. In these modern times, and as bad as a "traditional"war is, that's something to consider-especially considering how slanted the media can get with an article. It's easy to push a button and end off a few tons of explosives. We need to legally quiet down some of our own media before even thinking about a scenario like this. I'm not against freedom of the press, but sometimes the press abuses their own right.
As far as just bombing them all, war is sometimes necessary sure, but we need a balance somewhere. The pacifists have a point when they say killing for peace is like sex for chastity.

How'd we get from hunting with a .50 cal to this anyway?






People just need to understand the press is largely anti-American in their views and accept they are lied to more often than not on political issues.

Peace is only attainable when all sides want it.
It is generally necessary to kill a lot of the enemy before they opt for peace.
The bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima SAVED millions of lives.
Even then the peace was nearly lost to fanatics in Japan who very nearly intercepted the Emperors radio address before it was gotten out of the Palace.
Pacifists are invariably fools who only live because people who are not pacifists protect their lives and liberty. Or nobody figures they are worth killing. See http://orwell.ru/library/articles/pacifism/english/e_patw . Orwell (of all people) states it very well and it applies right now.
Once the fight is on there can be no "balance" its win or loose anything else is simply prolonging the agony and killing more of our people. Look at Korea and VN. The UN killed a lot of UN troops in Korea by its actions and the fact that the UN was and is infested with communists made "secret" operations impossible.
The on and off bombing in VN killed people I served with by encouraging the enemy.
Don't even go to the people who dreamed up the "sex for chastity" thing while VN was going on. My attitude there is somewhat "biased".

Dan


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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Dphariss]
      #104489 - 08/05/08 04:06 AM

I'm not a pacifist but I would prefer peace to war - that just makes me sane!

I have no doubt that Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved lives by hastening the end of the war, but it also cost huge number of innocent lives at a time when the war was arguably ending already. Its a moral catch 22 that history and philosophy students will debate forever. I don't presume to know the answer but am human enough to see both sides.

On the subject of bombing in the current theatres of Iraq and Afghanistan, regardless of whether it was right or wrong to invade, I can't see how it helps protect the western way of life to bomb innocents, most of whom have no objection to it and in fact aspire to many asects of it. I know lots of people in (and also from) Pakistan, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, the Gulf States, Iran and Iraq, and the vast majority have no argument against the west. I can't see how bombing the people that like us gets us anywhere, not least becasue it breeds resentment, reduces their number and increases the proportion of fanatics as a share of total population.

Bramble - not sure what you have against journalists! If its just Al Jazeera, you may have the wrong impression of their impartiality. Just because they broadcast in Arabic doesn't mean they are biased and in cahoots with the fanatics. I don't suppose that every article they write is posted in English at http://english.aljazeera.net/English but what is there seems pretty neutral and certainly more so than much of what you get on www.foxnews.com


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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: DoubleD]
      #104491 - 08/05/08 04:19 AM

Quote:

I have posted this picture here before.



This is a Montana rock chuck hit at about 250 yards with a 50 BMG. Look closely and you can see the bullet hit on the neck.




Are those missing tiles on the roof due to muzzle blast?!


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