Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)
bwanakim
.275 member


Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 69
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR
      #97836 - 28/02/08 11:55 AM

I would appreciate any comments on this rifle, including anyone who can post it for me from the Cabela's website since I don't know how to do that. I first learned of this rifle in the 1979 issue of Gun Digest. Jack Lott owned the rifle and wrote of getting it to regulate in his article "Care and Feeding of the Double Rifle" (pp.187-8). It was ordered by the Maharajah of Saliana and delivered in 1922. A couple of years ago, it showed up on George Caswell's site, at $59,000, and since he couldn't move it, it went to Cabela's in Fort Worth where it has remained for about 2 years. I saw it at the Dallas Safari Club show (twice), and it is an exquisite piece. Before Caswell and Cabela's, it was for sale with Gulf Breeze Firearms in Florida. I'm intrigued with it, and would love to try to buy it, but I have learned the lesson about fools rushing in the hard way. They have $50,000 on it. The guy at Gulf Breeze Firearms told me the owner is in it very high and that he will probably die with the gun. Like George, he blames the caliber for the lack of interest. Actually, I have more use for a rifle like this than a heavy, and I already own a couple of those anyway.George told me he thought it was worth about 40K. I've never gone into anything this expensive and am very wary given the difficulty in moving it.Does anyone have comments about the rifle, the price or know anything about it? Thanks!!

--------------------
bwanakim

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: bwanakim]
      #97837 - 28/02/08 11:59 AM



Don't know anything about the rifle but I'd own a H&H in 318WR if I had half a chance.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: bwanakim]
      #97866 - 28/02/08 04:09 PM

It looks to be a pretty nice gun. I would like to see a shot of the floor engraving. I think the caliber maybe the reason it hasn't sold but the market is catching up to the price tag if it was a little high to begin with. If you really like the gun, go for it. A Holland with unusual engraving made for royalty from the 20's, who's got one cheaper?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by gatsby (28/02/08 04:14 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 2028
Loc: Denmark
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: gatsby]
      #97879 - 28/02/08 10:10 PM

I have read the artical from GD 1979 by Jack Lott...Great artical

A H&H DR in .318 could be a dandy little deerpopper..and still have a feeling of "Something" classy in both name of gun and caliber. Howmuch is one willing to pay for this "feeling"??

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mike_Bailey
.400 member


Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: gatsby]
      #97880 - 28/02/08 10:10 PM

Bwanakim, if you like the calibre and have a use for it then I think it is nice. The only reason it is unsold is because of the calibre. I was informed of a nice 1969 Royal, delivered to its one owner in 1974, taken to NY once that year then returned and put in storage for 35 years and has now been put up for sale, the problem is the calibre, .458 Win Mag, so it needs converting to either .458 Lott or .500-.450 so it is never going to be a collectors piece. I have put a bid on it but guy wants too much INMHO.
I think though that if the rifle is going to be a "worker" you can buy a Westley Richards droplock in
this calibre which is just as nice for a fair bit less, i.e about $30k. You will have to search a bit though, best, Mike Bailey

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mike_Bailey
.400 member


Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #97881 - 28/02/08 10:16 PM

Also LOP is short, at least for me so it's another $1k for a nice pad

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #97885 - 28/02/08 11:07 PM

I own a H&H back-action top lever in .35 winchester which is ballisticly identical. I love this small frame deer/elk rifle so the caliber is not an issue. The price is.

Champlins has a real WR in the .318WR for $16k.

I paid $10k for mine and reckon it's a fair price and could liquidate it need be.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5319
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #97888 - 28/02/08 11:26 PM

Quote:

Also LOP is short, at least for me so it's another $1k for a nice pad



Yes, and it already has what appears to be about a 3/4" wood extension on the butt. From a collector's view, it has no butt stock.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bwanakim
.275 member


Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 69
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: CptCurl]
      #97894 - 29/02/08 01:13 AM

Thanks for the comments! As far as the buttstock extension, it's the original piece glued back on. In the 1979 article, Lott says he removed the piece to try a recoil pad, but the gun wouldn't regulate thereafter. So, he glued the piece back on. Still ,its cut and that's a drawback. I've seen the .318 at Caswell's. Again, the caliber must be an issue. He's had it for a year and no soap. Westley Richards has two .318's now, one a droplock and the other a sidelock, each one serial number apart. The thing about the Holland is its history and provenance. Thanks again!

--------------------
bwanakim

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mike_Bailey
.400 member


Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: bwanakim]
      #97897 - 29/02/08 01:44 AM

History and provenance for collectors are only worth a premium IF the rifle has been used by someone famous and is in a "romantic" calibre, this one isn't and as Bonanza has already seen a Westley droplock at $16k this is well over the top, INMHO $25k is absolute tops, rgds, Mike Bailey

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: bwanakim]
      #97901 - 29/02/08 04:17 AM

Hi Kim,

No doubt the gun is priced to high, and that is the main issue here imo. The calibre is wonderful, and has great history on the plains of Africa. To say this is not a romantic calibre as some other members have put forth, is inaccurate. I feel its a $35,000.00 gun the way it sits retail. However, notice in particular if you will, that it is not stocked to the fences, and the engraving pattern on the lock plates is not executed very well. This detracts from resale value imo. The stock insert is a non issue from what I can see, a nice leather pad would fix that for about $350.00

I would pass on this one, but everyone has different ways of looking at things. No matter what you decide to do, I wish you the best.




















Mike Bailey,

A WR 318 droplock at $16k? I'll buy that gun! Where is it? Caswell has a "B" grade fixed lock for $16k but not a droplock..

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: ]
      #97917 - 29/02/08 05:09 AM

I agree - its a great calibre. Very similar to the 338-06 (in fact you can make brass from 30-06 and it uses .330 bullets).
Price seems very high though.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mike_Bailey
.400 member


Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #97920 - 29/02/08 05:20 AM

Sinner, it was another member who said he saw a WR at $16k, not myself. When I said "romantic" I meant in the big game sense. The chap who originally posted did said he was worried about moving it on which suggests he is interested in liquidity. This calibre, I am sure you would agree, is not that "liquid" at a price of $35k or more. best, Mike Bailey

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bwanakim
.275 member


Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 69
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #97938 - 29/02/08 11:02 AM

Again, thanks to all for your responses. I had never intended to pay the 50K, but was curious as to what the members here thought it would be worth. I am always concerned about liquidity as I do quite a bit of trading around. The "Gun Library" people know of my interest and I'm going to try to get them to call me before anything else happens short of a sale, such as the guy deciding to move it again. I for one have hated to see Cabela's and Bass Pro get into this area. They have driven up prices and don't know shit about what they are selling. Perhaps a good recession would make them think about their decision to build one of their monstrosities on virtually every corner. Additionally, now that they've located to Texas, they have to charge our outrageous 8.25% sales tax.

As to the question about the lines on the lock plates, I think this a back action in reality and these are the edges of the plates. At least the Holland book by Dallas says so about guns of this vintage (1922).

--------------------
bwanakim

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bwanakim
.275 member


Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 69
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: bwanakim]
      #97940 - 29/02/08 11:09 AM

One quick further note--take a look at the "cartoon" tiger on the action of the WR .318 Caswell has for sale. He looks like he just got his ass kicked! As Sinner notes, it's not a drop lock and is awfully heavy at 10 lbs.

--------------------
bwanakim

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: ]
      #97976 - 29/02/08 07:20 PM

Sinner,
I don't think the photo's show the depth to the engraving of this particular Holland style, usually done by by one of the better engravers of the era on a model de luxe.
Have you tired of your faunetas yet?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: gatsby]
      #97995 - 01/03/08 01:24 AM

Quote:

Sinner,
I don't think the photo's show the depth to the engraving of this particular Holland style, usually done by by one of the better engravers of the era on a model de luxe.
Have you tired of your faunetas yet?




Gatsby,

Perhaps. However, it is still quite crude compared to the others I have owned from the same era, and the locks are the transitional style, which doesn't impress me either for "liquidity". As Kim put forth as a key interest.

My Westley Faunetas are very content being part of the family. No plans on selling, as they would be totally impossible to replace.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: ]
      #98030 - 01/03/08 11:26 AM

[quote

My Westley Faunetas are very content being part of the family. No plans on selling, as they would be totally impossible to replace.



Now that is a sin.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: gatsby]
      #101344 - 03/04/08 10:27 AM

I really like your H&H with the gargoyles.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: ]
      #101351 - 03/04/08 10:48 AM

A DR in a 318 will never bring the same price, 'gun' for 'gun' (i.e sidelock, fully engraved, etc) as one in a 'Dangerous Game' caliber, but that has a benefit too, the cost of entry. You will always pay less, and if you pay the proper rate (and that is always a subject of debate) you can always 'get out' without being buried. On the other hand, I am planning on letting my heirs worry about that.

By the way, WR no longer has that 318 sidelock, its in my gunroom. When I got it for a look see/try out, the condition (bbls reblacked and otherwise cleaned up at WR before shipped over here) was as Kevin described it. Close inspection of the engraving and overall workmanship was very impressive. After the usual wrangling we came to an agreement and I am quite pleased. I passed on the droplock as it just didn't speak to me as clearly as the sidelock (and I have one in 476 that is just too damn perfect and seems to have left me with a very high standard for droplocks.) Plus, not a whole lot of WR sidelocks around.

Sinner is correct in his statement that a 318 is a true 'African' caliber. Too much focus on big boomers and not enough on the mid sized DRs that spent a great deal of time, and did good work in Africa. 318s just don't get enough respect. (On the other hand, 303s seem to fetch a very good price in a DR. Too good, as I missed out on the last two I tried to grab at auction when I was soundly outbid!)

Oh, you CAN buy reasonably at Cabelas, it just depends on who you speak to. BC in KC and Bob in Richfield are usually pretty realistic and BC understands DRs. The real questions are how long they have had it in stock and how much they paid for it. If they are buried in the purchase price, don't bother. (And that is something that can become apparent fairly quickly.) If it is simply priced too high, after it has been around for a bit they will usually talk sensibly. This one appears to be one they are buried in. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (03/04/08 10:52 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: dnovo]
      #101361 - 03/04/08 12:30 PM

Does Cabelas rotate their stock through the different stores? Who sets the price for their top end rifles? Is it done where you take it or is it done by some higher persona?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bwanakim
.275 member


Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 69
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: mickey]
      #101950 - 08/04/08 08:34 AM

This one is on consignment. My information is that the guy who owns it is a California "investor" who bought it directly from Jack Lott, before Jack shuffled off to that great gunroom in the sky. He's in at at 35K and won't take a dime less. We'll see. As far as Cabela's Fort Worth selling it for him,. I'd rather bet on an asteroid hitting the earth first. I've tried to call them about it--they failed to return my calls and e-mails. I got my info by going around them. My background a former insurance defense lawyer comes in handy! My contact went directly to the guy with my offer and was refused.As this person told me, the next owner will purchase it from he guy's estate!

--------------------
bwanakim

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: bwanakim]
      #101980 - 08/04/08 09:29 PM

If you are buried in a rifle, you have two choices: Keep it or take a big hit. I agree with you on this rifle and your assessment of where it is going to sit for a while. Dave (former insurance defense counsel, eh? I remember the insurance industry mantra from my early days doing that, the Sacred Three Ds: Deny, Delay, Don't Pay.)

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: ]
      #102031 - 09/04/08 12:17 PM

Quote:

I really like your H&H with the gargoyles.



Why, thank you. I think this gun shows a similar motiff.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Grenadier
.375 member


Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: Holland & Holland Model Deluxe .318 WR [Re: bwanakim]
      #102880 - 19/04/08 10:59 AM

I recently sold a couple of guns at Cabelas. They came right out and told me that what they do is mark them up 30%. If that proves true then they would have paid about $38,500 for any double they are selling for $50,000. They marked up the two I sold them in just this manner and are now selling them for more then they are worth. I guess that's why so many of their guns are overpriced.

I recovered what I paid for the guns but "buyer beware". One of the guns I sold them had a famous maker's name but some real problems that the Cabelas buyer didn't see. Nothing unsafe but some things that were poor quality and others that needed attention -- like some expensive stock work to make it shootable. But the gun looked good and the buyer loved the name. I was faced with the choice of costly repair to "make the gun right" or to sell it at a loss. Cabelas was an easy out. I have heard rumors that some of the bigger dealers also use this method of disposing of poor quality merchandise by allowing their big competitor purchase it. So be careful of what you buy without closely inspecting it.

--------------------
~

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)


Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
2 registered and 574 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 11243
Calendar Event: 28/02/08

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved