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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
'The African Carry'.
      #96947 - 17/02/08 09:59 PM

The imagine of the Great White Hunter stepping out in Africa, with his double or magazine rifle carried over his shoulder and a hand firmly grasped around the muzzle pointing forward, is a recognizable image associated with safari culture.

However, there always seems to be opposition to the carriage of rifles in this way. Apart from looking like a complete twatt, is there a safety issue involved here and if so what is it ?

I have my own ideas but some more knowledgeable input would be appreciated.


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ozhunter
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: tophet1]
      #96950 - 17/02/08 10:34 PM

A well known PH had an AD with his double held in this position unfortunately killing one of his trackers.
I must say, tracking Elephant, Buff or lion all day long, one carries the rifle in all the comfortable positions available including this position which happens to be quite comfortable with the barrels pointing slightly off to the side.
PS; No one gives a toss what you look like in the bush.


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9.3x57
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: ozhunter]
      #96952 - 18/02/08 12:52 AM

I hope I do not get flamed for saying so, but personally I think the AC is one of the most irresponsible gun handling techniques that could be used when it is used IN THE PRESENCE OF OTHERS.

My own experience in Africa, plus watching video after video demonstrates the constant sweeping of others with the muzzle of the gun when this carry method is used in a crowd. I fully understand that the muzzle is "theoretically" in the best control of the carrier, and if he trips and falls he is going to guide the muzzle straight in to terra firma, but in fact, the constant sweeping of others that I have observed makes me rank this as a dangerous carry method in-general. It leaves the trigger unseen to the man carrying the gun, open to brush and other potential mayhem and whenever a man turns he often inadvertently sweeps his buddies with the muzzle. The only time I carry a longarm this way with others about is when I am out in front and we are hiking single file in open country. In my country, use of this carry method results in a beatup stock, too, as it is very difficult in the woods to use this carry method and not whack the stock on a regular basis.

Having said that, I use it alot myself because I rarely use a sling when actually hunting and hiking {though I have one in a pocket} and I do not hunt in a crowd as is common with "tourist hunting" in Africa. This method is very comfortable and the rifle can be carried quite a long time without getting tired {more comfortable than a sling to me} and I often use it getting to and fro, but not much for woods stalking, obviously, as the gun is not quickly available and it tends to snag in the dense pines. Including hunting seasons, I calculate I carry on foot, in the woods and mountains, just under 1,000 miles a year, maybe a little more than that. This mileage is in fact split somewhat between pistol and rifle/shotgun but you get the picture. I am alone or with one other person most all the time.

Open country and alone, fine. In woods and with others, almost never.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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EricD
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #96965 - 18/02/08 04:14 AM

I personally do not find the over the shoulder position comfortable to carry a rifle for an extended period of time.

I actually prefer to carry the rifle in one hand at my side. Depending on the rifles balance, usually with my hand around the front part of the action. I switch from hand to hand as time passes to rest one or the other. I have no problem doing this all day, day in and day out. Naturally, a persons grip has to be slowly trained up to do this, but this isn't a big problem if you start off light with smallish "dumbbells" or something similar when out walking (even though this does look kind of strange if you walk where there are other people). Eventually going up to, and above, the weight of your rifle.

I feel I have better control over where the trigger and safety is, in regards to bushes and branches when holding it like this compared to over the shoulder. At least when sneaking thru dense bush.

Erik


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JabaliHunter
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: tophet1]
      #96968 - 18/02/08 05:28 AM

Yes - burning your hand!

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shakari
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #96969 - 18/02/08 06:00 AM

You guys have got it all wrong. I've got a special machine to carry my rifle that's called an Eddie o Matic.

I just have Eddie carry my rifle over his shoulder using the Africa carry, and I walk behind him and can get it into action at least as fast, and probably faster than if I had it over my own shoulder. As no-one walks in front of Eddie, it's perfectly safe.

The only time I carry my own rifle is when I'm doing a follow up and the it's in my hands.

All you need to do is get yourself an Eddie o Matic!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (18/02/08 06:01 AM)


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tophet1
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: shakari]
      #96970 - 18/02/08 06:38 AM

Lol. Steve, unfortunately most of us are not blessed with access to cheap available labour. I can imagine the response if I tried to train up a Wife-o-matic or son-o-matic.

Edited by tophet1 (18/02/08 03:20 PM)


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shakari
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: tophet1]
      #96972 - 18/02/08 07:02 AM

I wouldn't recommend either of those models - they're far too expensive to maintain!

Actually one of the advantages of life here in Africa is that we have o matics for most things. At home, we have a Roger o matic to wash the cars and look after the garden and a maid o matic to do the housework...... good thing really, because we spend all our time either at home in front of a computer or in the bush hunting. - The bush is even better, because we also have waiter o matics and cook o matics etc!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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tophet1
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: shakari]
      #96974 - 18/02/08 07:46 AM

My next trip to southern Africa will be my fourth (not all involved hunting) but only the first time I will have paid for access to (decent) plains game.

The African Carry always struck me as providing little control over the weapon and as stated no control over the fireing mechanism. If the rear of the weapon was struck or dropped then it would pivot on the carrying hand. I've never carried anything heavier than an SLR/R1 so I don't know what it is like to truely lug a heavy piece of weapons kit over long distances.

It seems from the replies so far that the African Carry is more prevalent than I thought.


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Bramble
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: tophet1]
      #96980 - 18/02/08 12:10 PM

We did a lot of walking last week. And I found myself carrying my rifle on my right shoulder muzzle forward only if everybody was to my direct left. and muzzle rearward if I was last in line. At other times/positions I appear to be deeply psychologicaly programmed to be incapable of doing so. The muzzle must point upward and away from anyone.
Last year I did carry my double for 5 days in the AC position, however it was broken. Again this is I think from years of conditioning hunting birds in company. Never felt that it slows me down as closing the gun and releasing the safety is again deeply programmed.
I have seen a loaded double fall from a shoulder and discharge in a stumble, all be it a shotgun. That was to a very experienced shooter, and another slip on a seat with the same result.

I don't think that there is a right or wrong answer to this, but I would not walk in front of somebody carrying in this manner.

Regards


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: Bramble]
      #96981 - 18/02/08 12:37 PM

I use all the carrying positions: on a sling on my shoulder; in the crook of one arm; carried between both arms; in one hand at my side; on the shoulder facing forward.

The forward facing method is not dangerous to people in front as all you do is angle the muzzles away from people in front. You can not carry a rifle there in thicker bush. Just like you probably can't carry a rifle on your shoulder on a sling in heavier bush. Logical.

It is easier to carry a double rifle there than a bolt.

***

As for people pointing muzzles at people, check out some popular 'home' safari videos that do the rounds every year and see the muzzle pointing directly at the cameraman/lens in virtually every stalk. And this guy is not using an "African carry" position.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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9.3x57
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: NitroX]
      #96982 - 18/02/08 02:19 PM

Quote:

The forward facing method is not dangerous to people in front as all you do is angle the muzzles away from people in front.




I'm not sure I understand this. If I understand this correctly, this scenario assumes fellows are walking on a grid, or a surveyed chalkline. In fact, in single file, or in a group where some are in front of others, the natural lay of land and the normal bumps and tangle presented by terrain and cover and the winding of a trail causes the constant sweeping of other people with the muzzle of a gun carried on the shoulder sharp end first, really no matter how hard a fellow tries to mind his "P's" and "Q's".

As for comfort, everybody has their own preferences based on their personal phyisiological soft and hard spots, bones and muscles. I don't own a double but find the muzzle grab position quite comfortable with a bolt gun as long as there is a front sight to grab. In fact, on a rifle I chopped the barrel on just last autumn, I added a front sight as much for a handle as for anything else since it doesn't have a rear sight.

Another carry that is just as dangerous in a crowd, tho in the opposite direction is another one I use a lot; grabbing the rifle at the pistol grip and more or less hanging the thing over the shoulder with the side of the gun at the magazine area in cotact with the top of the shoulder. I use this at least as many miles as the "AC" or whatever it's called but not, again, in company, as, though the trigger is in control, the muzzle more-or-less paints a broad brush anywhere behind you.

I carry one of these things almost every day and I find myself thinking about field accidents involving firearms and specifically gun carry from time-to-time. As much as I deplore any carry method that involves a finger on the trigger or the sweeping of buddies with the muzzle I wonder just how many people are shot due to poor carry methods. I'm no guide so I can't say. I do almost all of my gun work in the field by myself so have little experience mixing with others.

Maybe some guides can weigh in with examples of AD's resulting in injury/death due to dangerous muzzle position caused by poor carry methods? For example, a fellow can carry his rifle at a very safe "port arms" all day long, but if he trips and falls and somebody is in front of him, that somebody may get swept at just the WRONG time and, thus, injury or worse caused.

Another safety precaution I tell my kids: It's just fine to look at your gun, but don't let your gun look at you! NEVER drag a gun toward youreself by the muzzle.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Paul
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Reged: 28/08/07
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Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #96986 - 18/02/08 04:27 PM

Shakari's outlook would have to be the one. To carry a rifle with the barrels forward over your own shoulder, to use yourself, would not make sense to me, being slow to use and dangerous to your tracker. As I recall, Pondoro said the tracker carried his big rifle like that and backed up when dangerous game appeared. Does anyone remember the story about the hammer-rifle carried in that way? It must have had light springs and was constantly being cocked by vines they walked under, without anyone noticing. It soon disappeared from the hunter's battery.

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iqbal
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: shakari]
      #96988 - 18/02/08 06:27 PM

You said it Shakari.We also are blessed with a lot of o matics.However we remove the cartridge/bullet from the chamber before handing it over to the o matic.Since I do not use a s/s it is not a problem.

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shakari
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: iqbal]
      #96991 - 18/02/08 06:42 PM

Pretty much all of my hunting is in DG areas, when I'm walking in the bush, I always have my rifle in cocked and locked mode, and all joking aside, I've spent a lot of time training Eddie my head tracker and he's absolutely trustworthy. I KNOW that all I have to do is stretch out my arm and the rifle will be there. Then Eddie ducks to one side and the rest is up to me.

I also always offer my clients the use of a gunbearer to work in the same way, but most prefer to carry their own rifle using a shoulder sling.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: shakari]
      #97057 - 20/02/08 01:51 AM

If your PH is unhappy with how you carry your rifle I am sure most will tell you.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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shakari
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: NitroX]
      #97062 - 20/02/08 02:20 AM

Gun safety is always something the PH has to be aware of at all times. I had two clients last year, one at the beginning of the season and one at the end, and their gun safety habits got forgotten at moments of stress. - All you can do is keep telling them and make bloody sure all the staff know to keep out of the way of the muzzle etc. I also train my staff to never, ever run after an animal etc.

Another issue of gun safety that is often ignored by clients is that they occasionally shoot before they're told to and often close to the PHs or other staffs ears. - 3 years ago, I had someone let 3 fast shots off with a muzzle braked Blaser 375 right next to me left ear. - I had my hearing checked last year, and I've lost 60% of my hearing in that ear.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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JPK
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: shakari]
      #97081 - 20/02/08 06:39 AM

As Oz Hunter and Nitro Express have stated, in the course of a long day on tracks, you end up carrying your rifle in every manner. I don't use a sling with my double rifles though so that is out, but a double rifle is easier to carry than a bolt, as mentioned. And its true that there is no fashion show in the bush, function wins the day, period, and the over the shoulder "African Carry" is an easy way to carry a relatively heavy dangerous game rifle for long times over long distances.

Remember that the whole net difference between a so called "tourist hunt" and the same dangerous game hunt by a PH for his own enjoyment is just one, the client. While there might be a wife or friend or cameraman along, the same holds true no matter who is sponsoring the hunt, a PH or a client. There will be at least one and probably two trackers, the PH - as shooter or as guide - and a government game scout, required in most areas, possibly an apprentice PH. Adding a paying client hunter is but adding one to the four or five engaged in the hunt regardless. Add wife or buddy or cameraman if the hunter, wether the PH or the client, want one or more along. The "line" is present with or without the paying client.

With an over the shoulder "African Carry", your muzzle should never sweep the man or men in front. The rifle's muzzle or muzzles should always be pointed to the outside and down.

No grid nessecary to keep the muzzles pointed safely, if the "line" swings right and the rifle in on your right shoulder, point it more right, or point it straight down to switch shoulders. It is easy to switch shoulders on the move with the muzzles pointed down, the rifle is simply balanced in your hand, "on the muzzles", which are, again, safely pointed down, and the rifle swung with little effort, because of the balance, to the opposite shoulder. No big feat for anyone who can walk and chew gum simultaneously.

As for the "exposed" trigger issue, first Rule 1: don't ever rely on a mechanical safety. Rely only on the rifle pointing in only a safe direction. Do consider though that while the triggers are more exposed and facing a direction that could lead to being "pulled" by brush, the slide safety of a double and the Winchester style safety of a bolt are facing a direction that leads to being swept onto "safe" and opposite the direction that leads to being swept to "fire."

Safety is one reason for the popularity amoungst some of the Kreighoff decocking system.

For me, I prefer a double rifle with both intercepting sears - which prevent a double rifle from firing by dropping oe jarring unless the appropriate trigger is pulled - , and a bolted safety, which is a lever which must be swung to allow the silde safety to be moved to fire, and so preventing trigger movement.

But I would hunt with a rifle without either intercepting sears or a bolted safety because follwing Rule 1 makes these additional safety features reassuring but redundant.

JPK


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xausa
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: JPK]
      #97096 - 20/02/08 12:08 PM

This is an issue which never came up in Africa with me, because I was considerably younger and fitter, and carrying my 8 3/4 pound .505 or my lighter Model 70 .300 H&H in one hand over long distances did not create a problem. I never much cared for a method which would bring my sweaty palms in contact with bare metal, so the African carry was not one I used.

Nowadays, I tend to either use the carry position promoted by Francis Sell, which involves carrying the rifle slung over the left shoulder, muzzle down, allowing the rifle to be brought to bear instantaneously by gripping the fore end with the left hand and swinging the muzzle up, while swinging the pistol grip toward the right hand, so that I end up in a "hasty sling" position, with the sling looped around the left upper arm and with the muzzle pointing in the direction I am facing. An alternative is carrying the rifle in the "port arms" position, at a 45 degree angle across the chest, with the sling looped across the left arm above the elbow, which supports the weight of the rifle, while at the same time making it immediately available.

When I am hunting with a double shotgun or one of my drillings, I don't use a sling generally, but often carry the weapon in the position I have adopted for years on the skeet field, with the action broken and the weapon over my right shoulder, muzzles pointed toward the ground, although, unlike my movements on the skeet field, I walk with the chambers loaded. This is also the position I use in crossing fences.

Slipping the weapon off the shoulder, closing the action and releasing the safety does take a little more time than just bringing the weapon down and releasing the safety, but the time lost is really negligible, even if you accidentally flush a covey of quail or jump a napping deer. Most of the time, I can usually anticipate the prospect of instant action and have the weapon down and the action closed before the need arises. Since I am generally wearing gloves, the sweaty palm issue does not arise.


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Paul
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: xausa]
      #97101 - 20/02/08 01:54 PM

Do hunters in Africa ever use those leather handguards British driven-game shooters lash around their barrels? The steel in front of a splinter fore end gets hot in the sun and the leather might save salty fingerprints. Catching on the gunbearer's shoulder could be a problem, I suppose.

What to do when negotiating fences and rough places is also a problem. I've been inclined to break open my gun and leave the cartridges in. However, some English writer has said the breech and fences are less likely to be burred in a fall if you unload and close the action. Not so handy when rough shooting or after DG, of course.


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JPK
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: xausa]
      #97102 - 20/02/08 02:00 PM

Quote:

When I am hunting with a double shotgun or one of my drillings, I don't use a sling generally, but often carry the weapon in the position I have adopted for years on the skeet field, with the action broken and the weapon over my right shoulder, muzzles pointed toward the ground, although, unlike my movements on the skeet field, I walk with the chambers loaded. This is also the position I use in crossing fences.

Slipping the weapon off the shoulder, closing the action and releasing the safety does take a little more time than just bringing the weapon down and releasing the safety, but the time lost is really negligible, even if you accidentally flush a covey of quail or jump a napping deer. Most of the time, I can usually anticipate the prospect of instant action and have the weapon down and the action closed before the need arises. Since I am generally wearing gloves, the sweaty palm issue does not arise.




This is not a good idea when hunting in Africa in a dangerous game area. The problem arises with twigs, even small seeds, which abound in Africa, interfering with closing the action, and so rendering the rifle useless until the obstruction is removed.

Not a problem with a covey of quail or a missed opportunity on a whitetail, but a serious, potentially life threatening problem if you flush a pissed off elephant or buff or something else that may want a piece of you.

JPK


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9.3x57
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: JPK]
      #97103 - 20/02/08 02:14 PM

Quote:

Remember that the whole net difference between a so called "tourist hunt" and the same dangerous game hunt by a PH for his own enjoyment is just one, the client. While there might be a wife or friend or cameraman along, the same holds true no matter who is sponsoring the hunt, a PH or a client. There will be at least one and probably two trackers, the PH - as shooter or as guide - and a government game scout, required in most areas, possibly an apprentice PH. Adding a paying client hunter is but adding one to the four or five engaged in the hunt regardless. Add wife or buddy or cameraman if the hunter, wether the PH or the client, want one or more along. The "line" is present with or without the paying client.

With an over the shoulder "African Carry", your muzzle should never sweep the man or men in front. The rifle's muzzle or muzzles should always be pointed to the outside and down.




JPK:

I won't dispute that this first paragraph may be true for the gents you know, but there are a heck of a lot of hunters in "Africa" that hunt plumb alone for alot of game. Not all hunters in Africa are "PH's", and naturally, hunting alone alters safety of the carry method quite a bit. Certainly in many areas it is common to hunt in a crowd, but that does not apply to all, everywhere. I had many friends and acquaintences in Congo and South Africa who hunted essentially alone, though they may have had help packing the critter out. My reference to "tourist hunters" is not meant to be a pejorative statement, only meant that fellows who pay big bucks to go over and kill stuff essentially always hunt in a crowd, relying on the skills of many who by necessity are there in the presence of the guns.

I agree that the muzzle/'s SHOULD be pointed elsewhere than the fellow's ass in front. Whether they are or not is a different story entirely. Personally, as stated, though I carry a gun that way sometimes for comfort's sake, I still consider it unsafe "in a crowd" and do not like anyone behind me carting their pole that way. Many years ago a friend of mine was shot standing not ten paces to my left due to very poor hunting safety of another fellow. I admit that incident has made me fairly safety conscious. Maybe overly so? Or maybe I am safe in certain ways and unsafe in others not noticed by me.

I find it interesting that this way of carrying the shootin iron has a sobriquet hung on it at all, since fellows all over the world have carried guns this way for centuries. The term "African Carry" is as good as any other I suppose.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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tophet1
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #97122 - 20/02/08 06:12 PM

I've always known it as 'The African Carry' here in Oz. I've also never seen anyone here use it with a rifled firearm without being ridiculed and immediately shamed into an alternative hold, hence my earlier statement in the original post.

Maybe I've been hanging out with a more conventional shooting crowd.


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9.3x57
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: tophet1]
      #97147 - 21/02/08 01:29 AM

Quote:

Maybe I've been hanging out with a more conventional shooting crowd.




Evidently not with this crowd.

The Original African Carry...



--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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JPK
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Re: 'The African Carry'. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #97162 - 21/02/08 04:43 AM

9.3x57,

What you say regarding hunting alone is certainly true with plains game, but not when it comes to dangerous game. Even the poachers like Nychens hunted with trackers, so too the Game Department control officers like Harland and old time pros like Taylor, et al. And in the Gov't concessions, you get a game scout like it or not.

Which brings up an interesting distinction, carying a relatively light rifle is actually something close to impossible, at least for me, using the "African Carry." The rifle needs enough weight to provide upward leverage on your forward hand. The lighter the rifle, the more butt that needs to stick out the back end. I doubt a rifle under 375 has the weight, unless its a pigger of a rifle. No desire to hump with only the barrel riding on my shoulder.

Also, you find foolish, ignorant and lazy hunters everywhere. A moron holding his rifle in his one hand is just as likely, and more, to point that rifle at the back, butt or thighs and calfs of the fellow in front as a moron with the rifle over his shoulder. It isn't natural to point the rifle directly ahead with the African carry since the rifle naturally rests on the shoulder pointing to the front and side, but it is only natural for the rifle to be pointing to the front, and parrallel, while holding the rifle in one hand. Reverse the one hand hold so the barrels point rearward and the same problem exist for the man behind.

A moron is a moron no matter how he carries his rifle. Conversely, a safety and muzzle conscious fellow won't be a moron and point his rifle at another fellow no matter how he is carrying his rifle.

Try another example, the port arms carry. Unless a fellow is a good bit taller than his companions, he will end up pointing it at the head of a close compatriot. Try the crook of the arm/elbow, the muzzles are even lower and the fellow to the right or left and a bit behind, and not in the line of sight of the holder, will be looking down the muzzles. Or try a short fellow holding a rifle on his shoulder with the muzzles point more or less up and back, seen this one many, many times too, the fellow behind again gets to inspect the crown on the muzzle in front, and isn't in the line of sight of the carrier. The list goes on and on.

It isn't how you carry the rifle, it is whether the fellow with the rifles is a lazy moron or not.

JPK


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