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Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun??
      #9624 - 20/02/04 05:19 PM

Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun??

If you could only have one rifle would it be a Double rifle?

Does the pleasure you gain from using your Double override any efficiency considerations. In other words is it similar to using a 375 to spotlight roos instead of using a 223 or 22/250.

Mike

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atkinson6
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun?? [Re: Mike375]
      #9663 - 21/02/04 04:52 AM

I use my double for dangerous game only..

If restricted to one gun it would be a 404 or 416 on a Mauser 98 action such as the one I own..

I am much too practical to do otherwise.

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Chasseur
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun?? [Re: atkinson6]
      #9682 - 21/02/04 07:05 AM

I have started to use my double for a general use gun. I just love to shoot it, and its about the only way to get field practice with it. If I tell myself, "well just don't use it unless you hunt really big game..." I'll only use about once a year or so. I bring it with my black bear hunting, and will try it for whitetails and other things this coming season. For close and mixed cover it works fine. There are times of course when its not practical, so the old '06 comes out for open country hunting, and really bad weather. Also for humps up mountains with an extrernal pack frame I'm just not comfortable with the double scratching back and forth along side the frame...

Just my thoughts.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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ThomasEdwards
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun?? [Re: Mike375]
      #9689 - 21/02/04 07:35 AM

...i think a scoped 9.3 with extra smooth bore barrels may qualify as a general use gun...if the maker offers dg rifled barrels (say in .470 or .416/400), a 3-barreled set may be the only 'gun' you ever need...

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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun?? [Re: atkinson6]
      #9690 - 21/02/04 07:38 AM

Ray,

I am 100% non practical when it comes to shooting which is why a 550 Magnum is on the agenda. The roos get bigger by the day

I sometimes wonder if a person was to use a double for all their shooting then they might become a much better game shot. In my opinion the "accurate" scoped bolt action leads one to do far more benchresting and in my experience bench shooting is worse for your offhand or improvised rest shooting than is no shooting practice at all.

Mike

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NE450No2
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun?? [Re: Mike375]
      #9730 - 21/02/04 11:10 AM

Yes I do. I began using my doubles for my "regular" hunting just to learn about them. As a result they have become my favorite hunting rifles. If I could have only one hunting rifle for the world I would have a scope fitted with claw mounts for my 450/400 3 1/4". I would use 300gr Hawks with the .025jkt for all deer/sheep etc. sized game and 400gr Woodleigh Softs [and solids where appro] for everything else.
If a fella only hunted North America my 9,3 Chapuis would do it all.

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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #9731 - 21/02/04 11:37 AM

NE450No2

I am not sure you need a scope....well you won't need a scope if you "live with the rifle"

My father had been shooter all his life and I can remember as a kid putting "caps" under the hammer of a 32/20. Also as a young kid Dad use to pull the bullets out of 22 rimfires and jam into the case some celophane (spell??) and we would fire them in the loungeroom.

I was first taken shooting to Western NSW when I was about 14. Had several trips with Dad and we were shooting the 303s with open sights and the Win 94 in 32/20. At about age 16 or so I started to read........you know the rest of the story

But looking back I think as a kid my "hits to shots fired ratio" was better with the 303 and 32/20...and with the open sights.

I know we argued on AR about the subject of using the Doubles but I am wondering if you were lacking conviction in your argument....that is, you were right...but you were trying to argue your case on the wrong basis.

Mike

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NE450No2
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun?? [Re: Mike375]
      #9733 - 21/02/04 12:04 PM

Mike
I did not mean to lack conviction in my "argument" for double rifles. Please explain what you mean and I will try to clarify.

I think that a double rifle in the proper caliber is the best hunting rifle for all game taken less than 200 yards. Some people must use a scope. A friend of mine with several trips [many to Africa] under his belt bought a double rifle on his way back from Africa one year. It was a nice one [Rigby] he bought it in England. The first and only time he took it to Africa it was a disaster. I talked to him as well as his PH. He simply could not see well enough to use iron sights.
He uses a scope on all of his other rifles. I feel if he would have had a scope on his double he would still be using it. I know if/when I get to the point thqt I cannot use iron sights I will get some big bore scoped doubles, or scoped the ones I have.

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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #9737 - 21/02/04 12:33 PM

NE450No2

I think you can already shoot all you want with your Double but on that thread you started on AR I think you fell into the trap of trying to do a techical analysis of "why the Double was adequate"

You know it is all quite funny really...crocodiles were shot to near extinction, mostly spotlight shooting with 303 and open sights. These days someone could not even imagine spotlight shooting without a scope.

Of all the millions of kangaroos that have been shot in Australia...most will have been in the spotlight with open sights These days it would be seen as impossible.

I am probably fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on the view point ) that my age, experience and interests have allowed me to overlap much of the shooting, at least in Australia.

In my opinion the bottom line is that we had a better "hits to shots fired..ratio" many many years ago.

Mike

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NE450No2
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun?? [Re: Mike375]
      #9739 - 21/02/04 01:07 PM

Mike
You might be right. With iron sights people might tend to know their limitations, with the scope some people tend to "stretch" things a bit far. Just because you can SEE better with a scope does not mean you can SHOOT any better.

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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #9740 - 21/02/04 01:30 PM

I think it is more a case of "shooting a lot" and hence getting a "feel"

In my opinion, the bloke who shoots a lot with open sights will still hit more game per shot fired even when he is nearing blindness. And range will not be a limitation.

For those who might read this thread who have fucked about with cars...they will know that when they let the clutch out between the gear change and give the engine the right revs it all works better than the synchromesh. And you don't need a rev counter to do it. Feeelllll

Mike

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luv2safari
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun?? [Re: Mike375]
      #9743 - 21/02/04 02:16 PM

Mike375,

Just how old are you and how near blindness???

I did a lot of open sight shooting when I was younger, but have a hell of a time trying to see everything I need to, to use open sights now.

Much depends on terrain and quarry. A blue gray mule deer standing in blue gray sage at 300 yards isn't exactly an open sight shot. It is a common scoped rifle shot in this country, however. Add the early morning or late afternoon light, and dark canyon shadows and those open sights look like city busses parked on top of your rifle.

I am at a stage in life where I have to rely on scopes often, or hang it up altogether...not ready for that option...Accordingly, I am having my Merkel 9,3x74r scoped with a good QR system.

Try closing your eyes and "feeling" your shot instead of aiming...but wait until I'm out of range!

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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mstarling
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gu [Re: luv2safari]
      #9778 - 22/02/04 04:57 AM

My Christmas present (with a lot of help from my bank account) was a 9.3x74R Chapuis. It is fitted with 1.5-6x42 Schmidt+Bender scope and has a set of 3" 20 gauge barrels as well.

Have only taken a deer and a hog with the double rifle barrels and 5 pheasant, 4 chukkar and 20+ quail with the shotgun barrels.

Am an older guy and my eyes are not what they used to be. The scope allows reaching much further out than the iron sights as the rifle groups very well at 100 yards. So far ... I am very impressed and think I'd be OK with this one as the primary for most hunting in North America.

Is obviously too light a rifle for dangerous game, but will take it to RSA along with an M-70 in .338 win Mag on a plains game hunt.

When we return I'll be saving for a DG hunt in 2005 or 2006 and will take a CZ in .416 Rigby and a Searcy in .470 NE for that. I like the idea of having two guns that are pretty well fitted to the purpose.

mike

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atkinson6
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gu [Re: mstarling]
      #9950 - 24/02/04 07:37 AM

I think this "I'm too old for iron sights" is the biggest crutch I have ever heard off, nothing more than a lame excuse..

In this day and time and with corrective vision just down the block, a set of glasses fixes it for most that have a desire to shoot open sights...

I wear bifocals and have some correction above in my 70 year old eyes and I can sure shoot open sights..and I can kill a mule deer at 300 yards most of the time by holding on the top of its back...

If you don't want to shoot open sights then fine, but some of this stuff is just not correct...some people do have such poor vision that they cannot shoot open sights, but then they should not be hunting IMO, they are a danger to the rest and they cannot spot the game anyway....

I'm with Mike, if you want to shoot open sights, then get out there and try it, learn how to shoot, it will add a lot of fun to your hunting experience....and I guarentee you with a bit of practice you will be amazed at how good you can get with them..Quit reading all the hunting rags, they making you whiney!

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mstarling
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gu [Re: atkinson6]
      #9953 - 24/02/04 08:22 AM

Ouch!!! That one was a "center of mass" hit.

Ray, I did find that shooting the Searcy which is not scoped did make me go back and learn to shoot with open sights ... and I am quite pleased with the result. But I've got to tell you I cannot see much detail on a target at 100 yards if the front sight is in focus. At that range and beyond I do prefer a scope.

My distance vision is actually pretty good with glasses ... I simply cannot accomodate for distance differences they way I once did. Should that disqualify me from going into the field?

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dangerousdave
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun?? [Re: Mike375]
      #10061 - 25/02/04 09:51 AM

I use my double rifle in .470 every chance I get.When I first got the rifle I prcticed alot then I took it hog hunting. What a kick!!! I have an abundance of hogs on y property so I got a lot of practice with live game.The solids will easily take out 2 pigs with 1 shot if you line them up right.I also got a ot of good practice at reloading in the heat of the battle,trying to reload as the pigs ran off after the first 2 shots was very challenging. I then took the double to TZ along with a 375 bolt gun, I used the double to take 1 Buffalo and a worthog.The trophies I have taken up close and personal with the double are my greatest.(personal note here,I refuse to measure my trophies,I have never thought of hunting as a competitive sport except between the hunter and the hunted).Sorry I got off track!The point of posting was to say something that I think was left out,HUNTING WITH A DOUBLE JUST HAS A SPECIAL FEEL TO IT THAT YOU CAN NOT DESCRIBE,YOU HAVE TO EXPERIENCE IT FOR YOURSELF.

--------------------
Be good to your children,they pick your nursing home

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atkinson6
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun?? [Re: dangerousdave]
      #10158 - 26/02/04 04:58 AM

Mstarling,
The human eye cannot focus on three objects at the same time,only two...Therefore either the rear sight, front sight or the target is going to blur...The accepted method is to have a clear sight picture and a blurred target..amazingly enough this works, not to say that the scope is not a better method at long distances, it is....and because of that one must learn and know his limits with irons, just as one must also know his limits with a scope, or the capabilities of his rifle or his shooting ability...

I feel pretty confident with a shallow V at 200 yards and pretty confident with a peep at 300 yards on standing broadside shots with a rest...

I feel confident with all three sighting arrangments shooting offhand at up to 150 yds. and perhaps 200 yards under some circumstances..I give a scope a 100 yard advantage and limit myself to 400 yards max with a scope, and then only with a rest....

At 100 yards offhand I shoot iron sights or peep better than a scope, I have proven that to myself on many ocassions. I suppose its the magnified wiggle of the scope that tends to sabotage me, and with the irons I cannot see this wiggle so I concentrate 99% on trigger pull..

Trigger pull btw is the catalist to all shooting with any sight set up, especially off hand..I have a controlled jerk,flinch or whatever you want to call it but it seems to work for me .

As to your not qualifying and should you quit hunting IMO, I think not, simply do your best and do whatever works for you..that is what I do...I only speak for myself in all my posts and do not inflict my will on others...

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mstarling
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gu [Re: atkinson6]
      #10203 - 26/02/04 04:41 PM

Ray,

Thanks for the reply.

Actually the human eye can't give sharpest focus to two objects at the same time that are a significant distance apart. The eye changes focus for range by changing its shape. This is called accomodation and is aided by musculature and assumes some mechanical characteristics that do change with age. Generally, one is less able to accomodate with age.

If I remember my high power coaching and the pre-optics age of IPSC, the idea of iron sights is to look thru the rear sight and sharp the focus on the front sight. This will leave the target slightly blurred.

That was fine when I was younger. About age 50 the resolution of my vision at distance when the front sight is in focus began to change. (Technically, resolution is the ability to resolve two close points.) At this age (58 more or less) I cannot see a two inch dot at 100 yards when focusing on a front sight. Sad but true.

The optical sight tends to improve the situation by placing the image of the target and the image of the aiming point (the reticle) in the same or very nearly the same focal plane. Thus the need for the ability to accomodate is lessened.

What I first noticed when going back to the irons on the Searcy is that I had gotten lazy with my seeing. It took some time to re-learn how to use iron sights. I think that has occurred and I'm probably OK with that rifle to 75 yards or so for relatively quick work on larger game. However, I'll not stress that in the field until I have had another years practice with the rifle.

I agree that trigger control is of utmost importance. We see more difficulties with that than anything else when folks are using optical sights.

Finally, optical sights need not be slow. In world open class "practical" handgun (racegun) competition which stresses speed and accuracy, iron sights have given way to what amount to heads up displays and they can be very, very fast (even on moving targets). I suspect a DGR with a C-More or a Holoscope would be very effective in the field ... if it were not for the risk of losing batteries at the wrong time ;>)

I cannot deny that a double rifle with iron sights is an awesome weapon in close quarters. I have been amazed to find that they can also be darned good at longer ranges. And for me at 100 to 200 yards that suggests a scope. It may not fit your sensibilities ... but it does work for me. And as long as I can safely hunt I'll use technology to improve or lengthen my time left in the field.

My Best,

mike

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atkinson6
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gu [Re: mstarling]
      #10243 - 27/02/04 09:22 AM

Mstarling,
Your post was exactly my point, in that you can focus the front and rear sight and the target is a blur, but that's OK, that works fine....

Also you should be able to get some corrective lenses that will compensate for your sight loss I would think...

However, this is all up to you and how bad you want to use iron sights...I agree a glass sight can be fast but its near worthless if a charge gets in close and personal, it is near impossible to point shoot with a scope and they really fill that scope up when they get close, even on low power, then take into consideration the fact that as they close the scope POI differers from the actual Point of impact of the bullet, the gun starts shooting low inside 25 yards and gets worse as the gap lessons...

Just my IMO on the subject and we must all make our own decisions on these things, and I am sure no one person is correct for everyone.......

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NE450No2
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gu [Re: atkinson6]
      #10261 - 27/02/04 12:05 PM

mstarling and Ray
Both of you make valid points in your last few posts.
However I have the ultimate solution IMHO.
Use a double rifle with iron sights that you like, to the distance that you are capable with, depending on the shot presented. Have your double rifle fited with QUICK ATTACHABLE [most people call them quick detachable, but it works both ways ] scope mounts. Carry your scope in a belt holster. When a situation occurs where your scope is necessary, just attach it to your rifle and shoot. If on the final follow up a scope in a hinderance, remove it.
I have been using this system for years [pat. applied for]. For a small royalty you can too.

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luv2safari
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gu [Re: NE450No2]
      #10265 - 27/02/04 12:35 PM

NE450 no2,

Well, I guess you're back up to #2 again...pushing for 450 no1.

I have used combination guns since I was 12...56 now...and have put some experience under my belt regarding on N off scopes, as a result.

I think they are the neetest thing since sliced bread. It is almost like having two guns in the field with you.

One thing I have come to do when hunting with the QR scopes is to wear a common upland shell vest with the game bag fastened down so it doesn't flap around. I put my scope in the game bag, along with that thin white paper we all carry.

It has become second nature for me to reach into the game bag for the scope if I need it. These vests are great for carrying out the liver and heart, also.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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NE450No2
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gu [Re: luv2safari]
      #10273 - 27/02/04 01:29 PM

luv2safari
I have been using that same gamebag system, especially with my wifes drilling. With my 9,3 Chapuis I usually just stick the scope in my back pocket.
I had www.murrayleather.com make me a butt stock shell carrier for my wifes drilling that holds 3 rifle shells and 3 shotgun shells. His stuff is top notch.

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atkinson6
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gu [Re: NE450No2]
      #10575 - 02/03/04 07:10 AM

Unless ranges are quit short a scope will not return to zero exactly and is usually an inch of two off, especially in a double rifle...I always hear otherwise but when properly tested I find this is true with about any QD mounts...I have Talleys on all my bolt guns but when I take them off, I leave them off until I have a chance to check them with my bore sighter or take a shot at a target before I go back out hunting...

An inch or two may suit some, but not me, I might have to poke something mean in the eye...and I want to hit that spot dead center...add that inch or two to my wiggle and it could be a serious miss...

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun?? [Re: Mike375]
      #10622 - 02/03/04 11:58 AM

In reply to:

Do you use your Double rifle as general use gun??





Do I use my doubles for general hunting? YES, I do!


In reply to:

If you could only have one rifle would it be a Double rifle?




NO! It would be a drilling double rifle, chambered for 375 H&H flanged/375 H&H flanged, on top, and a 12 ga shotgun on the bottom!

If I couldn't have but one barrel then it would be a Mauser Bolt rifle chambered for 375 H&H!

Contrary to the likes of most I would have scope and irons on any ONE GUN system I was saddled with!






--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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