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reflex264
.275 member


Reged: 20/01/08
Posts: 50
Loc: TN
Leverguns
      #95262 - 27/01/08 09:19 AM

This is going to take a little while. I know tons of guys that use lever actions as their primary hunting and guiding rifle of choice. I use all types of rifles including a bunch of leverguns. They have proven themselves to be reliable, accurate, powerful and just plain old cool. The following photos are of a professional guide in Alaska that guides moose, caribou and big brown bear hunts. The first series of photos shows a bear that was wounded by a hunter he was guiding. They had to go into an alder thicket after it. When the bear charge started..........well I will just paste his story.

hey all,

well, just got back from guiding brown bears. some lessons learned, as usual the hard way. we got on a good sized bear, light colored, which i thought was a boar. we closed distance, to within 200 yards and had the bear in the open on the beach. the hunter had a .375 h&h. shot the bear high in the shoulder, and it humped up, he was slow on the bolt and i told him to shoot it again.

he shot, missed and the bear took off, uphill, fast! i started in, and got off a total of 7 shots, none of which hit the bear, at ranges of 225 to 275 yards running thru the alders. of course the client was shooting as well, and was hitting nothing either. it was almost clear, so i took a range on the bear, 250 yards. the hunter shot and hit it, not sure where, and it dove off the hill and got behind another ridge in front of us. we followed blood to the alders and decided to wait till the morning.

after an anxious night of waiting, another guide, my hunter and i got on the blood trail in the am. followed it thru alders for nearly a mile. spotted it in the alders across the valley, and the other guide gave us hand signals to close in on the bear.

well, at 25 yards, joel (the other guide) started acting really animated so i knew we were close. at 20 yards the bears head popped up in the brush. man, it was thick in there. my hunter spotted the bear and got set to shoot, at the time he said he was gonna shoot, the bear got up, and stepped our way. it was a bit of a shootout. my hunter shot, hit the bear, then i started paying attention to my gun. i levered in 3 quick shots with my .457 shooting 350 grain kodiak bullets, and the client shot once more and it was done, WHEW!! the hunter later said he was not nervous till the shooting started, and i said "well, you shoulda been!!!" trailing a wounded brown bear thru alders is a really, really lousy job.

i was disappointed in the fact that i did not make a follow up shot faster than i did. and that i was unable to make a hit, even though the bear was deep in the cover. it was also a terrible thing that a majestic beast had to suffer over night.

some terminal ballistic information, the initial hit was high in the shoulder, did not hit spine, or apparently lungs. i recovered 3 bullets. one was a 375 failsafe bullet that the client shot into it, its petals were all torn off, and it was found under the hide in a rear leg, after traversing the shoulder and body. i found 2 .458 bullets, one was really mashed out (two bullets had shot thru and alder as big as my fore arm, i suspect this bullet was one of em) it weighed in at 303 grains, had a frontal area of 1.08" x .660"!!!

thats right, over an inch across! and over 80% weight retention. the other bullet was 332 grains and .800". not bad retention for point blank range inpacts. velocity was 2177 fps avg when checked at the range.

i was wishing for a brockman or clement extended magazine when i was in the middle of things! no such things as too many bullets. turned out to be an 8' 4" bear. my hunter was happy and at that point, so was i.

there is a bit of discussion on this forum about bears, and what works and what doesn't. from my point of view, leverguns can put maximum aimed fire in the shortest possible time. aimed fire being the operative word. anyone can shoot a gun, even pretty fast, but the levergun has proven to me to be able to place the shots accurately AND quickly. that is a good thing for anyone that needs follow up shots quickly.

was a great hunt, and enjoyed all the hunters on the boat, and ended up home safe and sound. not too bad,


Birdman

This is birdman with the bear


This is the bear from the view that birdamn and his hunter had.


This is one of the alders that one of the bullets passed through.



After this incident birdman said he wished he had more shots availible. He bought a new XLR 45-70 and had Clements cut the barrel back to 20". They put an extended mag tube on it. Glove loop lever. Brockman QD scope mounts with the pop up peep sight in the rear and Brockman sights. The gun is very acuarate and got him 8 shots. This year he used it on a caribou hunt before guiding a bear hunter. Once again his skill with a levergun kept him out of trouble. This time he shot the bear after the client hit it with a .300 to keep it from getting into a thicket.


Here is the new rifle.


The rear sight/mount


with the scope installed.


fruit of his labor



Leverguns are for real. So much has been said about rainbow trajectories and such but I use them (.444,.450 and .45-70 to shoot 300+ yards without hesitation. I am a crop sniper. I do deer population control kills on farm land on state permits. I use 45-70s in many of the fields where the shots are 300 yards and under and make most of these shots off hand due to the rolling terrain. They are ideal for such purposes. If you are on cable internet you can watch the follwing video of one of my leverguns in action.reflex264

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3433415096555745370

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
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Re: Leverguns [Re: reflex264]
      #95347 - 28/01/08 09:56 PM

Quote:

got off a total of 7 shots, none of which hit the bear, at ranges of 225 to 275 yards.....


Good shooting!

Quote:

there is a bit of discussion on this forum about bears, and what works and what doesn't. from my point of view, leverguns can put maximum aimed fire in the shortest possible time. aimed fire being the operative word. anyone can shoot a gun, even pretty fast, but the levergun has proven to me to be able to place the shots accurately AND quickly.......




Quote:

Leverguns are for real. So much has been said about rainbow trajectories and such but I use them (.444,.450 and .45-70 to shoot 300+ yards without hesitation.




Quote:

it was also a terrible thing that a majestic beast had to suffer over night


Thats an understatement!

Let me be clear - I have nothing against lever rifles at all and the guide clearly seems to have put his hunter into a great position for the initial shot, albeit not close enough for both hunter (sniper?) and guide as it turned out.

However, given the range of that initial shot, did the guide arm himself with a suitable weapon to take care of the situation and dispatch the bear cleanly without allowing undue suffering? NO, because despite firing SEVEN times, the bear escaped off an open beach. IMHO the guide was armed with the WRONG rifle at this point.

Once the follow-up began, however, and the action got close, then clearly the lever action becomes a better choice.


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Leverguns [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95360 - 29/01/08 02:34 AM

I have nothing against leverguns. In fact I own three Savage 99's, two Winchester 88's and a Winchester 94 and a 71, but I really question their appropriateness for dangerous game. Their weakness in my opinion is in the area of primary extraction, where the mechanical advantage is on the order of 2/1, as opposed to the bolt action 8/1, which is not always enough to remove a recalcitrant case from the chamber. As far as rapid fire is concerned, it is mainly a matter of practice. A trained bolt gunner can get off as many aimed shots as a lever gun shooter while at the same time enjoying a much larger selection of ammunition to use.

The speed attributed to the lever gun appears to me to be misleading. Actuating the lever pulls the rifle away from the shoulder initially, which is only partially compensated for by the less vehement action of returning the lever to its original position. With a bolt gun, the initial motion pulls the butt back into the shoulder and the reciprocating motion of closing the bolt requires far less effort. The same could be said of a pump action, but the only pump actioned high power, the Remington 760, has extractor issues in common with other Remington products.

I am not sure what the mechanical advantage of the Model 88 Winchester, which is essentially a lever actuated bolt rifle, might be with regard to primary extraction, but the shortness of the action of both it and the Savage 99 create a severe limitation on the length of the cartridge it can accomodate. I have mentioned before a long delayed project involving a .40 caliber cartridge based on the .284 Winchester case, resulting in a sort of short actioned equivalent of the .400 Whelen, but barring that, I would be hesitant to use any currently available lever action for dangerous game.

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reflex264
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Reged: 20/01/08
Posts: 50
Loc: TN
Re: Leverguns [Re: xausa]
      #95423 - 29/01/08 02:30 PM

JabaliHunter, Not to start a fight for sure but you left out the part that when the shots were taken at the running bear "at ranges of 225 to 275 yards running thru the alders". You must have never been around a alder thicket. The point was that both of them were trying to get more lead into the bear in a very difficult situation that no mater what rifle was used would have been difficult.


This is speaking from experience. Judging this statement by the state of shooting at a bear running 25+mph through an alder thicket is not taking the following statement at face value from someone that does this for a living.

there is a bit of discussion on this forum about bears, and what works and what doesn't. from my point of view, leverguns can put maximum aimed fire in the shortest possible time. aimed fire being the operative word. anyone can shoot a gun, even pretty fast, but the levergun has proven to me to be able to place the shots accurately AND quickly.......





"Leverguns are for real. So much has been said about rainbow trajectories and such but I use them (.444,.450 and .45-70 to shoot 300+ yards without hesitation".


That is my statement. Did you watch the video? Most of those deer during the depradation kill were shot at 200 yards and beyond. Offhand. I use other rifles for the big fields where 400 to 500 yard shots are common and farther ones are not even rare.

This is my favorite set up for the long shots. .264 Custom Encore topped with a V-Tac.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: Leverguns [Re: reflex264]
      #95448 - 29/01/08 11:43 PM

No need for a fight I was just amazed that you used this bear hunt story to illustrate the effectiveness of hunting with lever action rifles! Yes it was effective in dispatching the wounded bear, but was of absolutely no use in the actual hunt the previous day.

I accept that in this case, the lever rifle was used as a backup and hitting a runing target at that range is extremely difficult, no matter what rifle is used. However, the example did not illustrate the effectiveness of lever rifles at all IMHO - I do not subscribe to the "throw as much lead into the air as possible and hope to hit something" school, which is how THIS PART of the story appeared to me. The fact that the lever action was able to fire seven shots in a short space of time is irrelevant - because they all missed!

I have no argument with your long range shooting ability. However, hunting deer and hunting dangerous animals that are much tougher is different, not least for precisely the reason that was shown in your story - the bear was not fatally wounded, ran off and was not dispatched until the following day. My argument is not with the lever rifle, it is with the whole approach to the hunt outlined in your story.

My point was that the initial shot should not have been taken if there was a risk of subsequent shots not being successful due to the extreme range and a fast moving bear. Alternatively, the guide could have fired IMMEDIATELY after the client, before the bear started running. Granted, no hunter really wants his guide to shoot his bear, but both guide and hunter have a responsibility to hunt ethically, which means not taking risky long shots. In this case, the shot was long and risky - by virtue of the simple fact that the first shot was not good (yes, admittedly with hindsight).

I have no argument against the lever rifle, especially in the close range follow-up that occurred the following day (although xausa makes good points on this).

Hope that clarifies a little. What is your favourite lever action and calibre by the way?

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Leverguns [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95455 - 30/01/08 01:02 AM

reflex:

Where do you guide?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26498
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Re: Leverguns [Re: 9.3x57]
      #95480 - 30/01/08 06:27 AM

Reflex - I enjoyed the video - your shooting was good indeed, from what I saw - I would expect nothing less - we shoot differently offhand, but that's to be expected. I have back problems which don't let me hold as I used to for competition, body rest as you were, however I've overcome any accuracy concerns through practise. We routinely practise offhand at 100 to 300 meters offhand at a variey of targets, with every gun we shoot, evne the muzzleloaders. Too bad most hunters didn't.
: I'd like to see shooting proficiency tests as in Germany and the Scandahoovian countries implimented here, in order to obtain a hunting licence.
; To address the guiding scenario above, I firmly agree with the guide's choice of weapon for a back-up rifle. One must have actually hunted and walked through those alders to appreciate what it's like - almost impenetrable, tough and thick and to miss all offhand shots at a running bear through them - well, I'm just surprised they got of that many before it disappeared. It is sad it suffered overnight, but these things seem to happen wiht guided hunts. It's the first bloody shot's fault for that, not the guide's. I'm not sure I'd have let a hunter shoot at a grizzy from that distance, but I've found hunters usually shoot worse, the closer they are to the bear.
; The only unflappable hunter I've seen, was a Yugoslavian hunter who had hunted all over and on other dangerous game too - a good shot and a calm one. His shot at an 8'3" 'official'measurement griz was taken at 25 yards with the bear easily looking him in the eye - he wasn't a very tall fellow, maybe 5'6". An 8' bear is quite tall, on the other hand - head perhaps 4 1/2' above the ground. The hunter camly put a 9.3 cal. 270gr. Speer Factory Sako round into the centre of it's chest, slightly high and the bear dropped dead. Other hunter's I've been in camp with, have completely missed 7' black bears at the same distance, or shot them in the foot, front leg, etc. The bears generally move out very rapidly after that - on impact, they jump, or roll and FLASH - they're gone. If they go the wrong direction, the guide doesn't even get to shoot.
: The guide's primary reason for packing the rifle is to protect his hunter & himself from being harmed by stopping charges, not to make up for every hunter's bad shooting. It is used for bringing to bag those animals wounded, but for me, at least, it's for protection. That the guide possess a good stopping rifle is esential when guiding longbow hunters - my opinion as shots are 25 yards or preferably, much closer.
: The guide could do much worse than the Marlin .450, .457Custom or .45/70. I think one of those custom guns in .50 Alaskan would be especially nice.
; One guide up here packs an NEF in .30/30 with iron sights because it's light. He tells his hunter - you better not wound that grizzly.
: Have a great day.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
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Re: Leverguns [Re: DarylS]
      #95486 - 30/01/08 07:24 AM

"One guide up here packs an NEF in .30/30 with iron sights because it's light. He tells his hunter - you better not wound that grizzly.
: Have a great day. "

Hey Daryl

Did you add the "Have a great day" or does the guide add that to the first bit for effect.

That is one of the best one liners I have heard in a while

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reflex264
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Reged: 20/01/08
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Re: Leverguns [Re: Bramble]
      #95513 - 30/01/08 02:08 PM

Howdy fellers. Probably didn't provide enough info in my first post. I talked to the guide by phone after this. Shooting the bears on the beech is standard practice. This one just went the wrong way quick. The purpose of the new rifle with the Leupold and more shots is to make the shots like he was faced with much easier. The original rifle wasn't scoped but the norm was to go into thickets with the bears where it was the perfect tool. The new rifle with the QDRs handles the long and short shots perfectly.

9ThreeXFifty7- I am not the guide. I am a avid hunter and a crop sniper for the state.


Hope that clarifies a little. What is your favourite lever action and calibre by the way?

My favorite is my LTD-V 45-70 that you see in the video. Shoots 3 shot groups under an inch with nearly any bullet. Perfectly balanced and fast handling. Topped with a VariX-III 1.75X6 heavy duplex. I have no problem heart shooting deer at 300 yards with it. They only built 1000 of them and mine is a low 2 digit serial number. Not only is it one of my favorite leverguns it is one of my favorite rifles. My current favorite bolt gun is my .416 Taylor built by Gatlin Guns and my favorite single shot is my Ruger #1 .416 Rigby. All are great shooters. I have another levergun that has grown on me quite a bit. A .450 Guide Gun topped with a V3. Quite a little power house. I have been shooting the 550gr and 420gr Craters and the Nosler 300PP. All shoot great from it. It will make 4000flbs and is nearly as handy as carrying a pistol. reflex264

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reflex264
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Reged: 20/01/08
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Re: Leverguns [Re: reflex264]
      #95518 - 30/01/08 02:59 PM

This is the .450 with my .416 Rigby


my LTD-V(before I changed scopes)




Edited by reflex264 (30/01/08 03:06 PM)

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Leverguns [Re: DarylS]
      #95542 - 31/01/08 12:05 AM

Quote:

It's the first bloody shot's fault for that, not the guide's. I'm not sure I'd have let a hunter shoot at a grizzy from that distance


Sorry Reflex - this is the point I was trying to make - but like that first shot, I made a bit of a fist of it!

Nice rifles by the way! We are quite restricted when it comes to rifles in the UK, but I have been searching for a really good classic lever action for a while to add to my collection, but haven't found what i'm looking for yet. I'm thinking of something much smaller though - maybe a 25-35 that I could use for small deer over here occasionally (with handloads).

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DarylS
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Re: Leverguns [Re: Bramble]
      #95560 - 31/01/08 05:33 AM

I added the 'Have a Great Day' becasue I figured my post might get people thinking a bit.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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reflex264
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Reged: 20/01/08
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Re: Leverguns [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95584 - 31/01/08 12:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It's the first bloody shot's fault for that, not the guide's. I'm not sure I'd have let a hunter shoot at a grizzy from that distance


Sorry Reflex - this is the point I was trying to make - but like that first shot, I made a bit of a fist of it!

Nice rifles by the way! We are quite restricted when it comes to rifles in the UK, but I have been searching for a really good classic lever action for a while to add to my collection, but haven't found what i'm looking for yet. I'm thinking of something much smaller though - maybe a 25-35 that I could use for small deer over here occasionally (with handloads).



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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Leverguns [Re: reflex264]
      #95587 - 31/01/08 02:15 PM

Quote:

I'm thinking of something much smaller though - maybe a 25-35 that I could use for small deer over here occasionally


Jabbers:
Have you considered the Win 92 in .32-20? Carbine perhaps? In Australia they were blowing down the street with the wind a few years ago, probably still heaps lying around, particularly in rural areas. Admittedly not as flat-shooting as the .25-35, but nonetheless 'classic'!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: Leverguns [Re: Marrakai]
      #95605 - 31/01/08 08:35 PM

Thanks for the suggestion - will look into it. I'm not really bothered about flat trajectories, but for deer there are legal energy requirements. Still if it doesn't stack up there is always the range and foxes etc!

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DarylS
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Re: Leverguns [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95637 - 01/02/08 04:28 AM

A nice .30/30 or .32 Spl. M94 would be better suited - or a .45 colt or .44 mag.
: I tested my 1958 M94 in .32 Spl just last fall wiht WW ammo. I had previously tried RP's that printed 5" groups at 100 yards. The Winchesters all went into a nice 1.6" group for 5 shots. not satisfied, I put the next 5 into 1-1/2". I was tickled, especially since I didn't allow it to cool down inbetween groups. This rifle has 97% condition with a perfect bore. When I got it, it still hadn't shot a full box of ammo, but had been carried a bit.
; If one wants to reduce power in either, there are plenty of cast moulds available - more for the .30/30, of course, but the RCBS 180gr.FN bullet is supposed to work well in the .32.
; I agree, a good .25/35 would be fun, though, maybe a .25 Tomcat (.25/35 IMP).

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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reflex264
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Posts: 50
Loc: TN
Re: Leverguns [Re: reflex264]
      #95664 - 01/02/08 11:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

It's the first bloody shot's fault for that, not the guide's. I'm not sure I'd have let a hunter shoot at a grizzy from that distance


Sorry Reflex - this is the point I was trying to make - but like that first shot, I made a bit of a fist of it!

Nice rifles by the way! We are quite restricted when it comes to rifles in the UK, but I have been searching for a really good classic lever action for a while to add to my collection, but haven't found what i'm looking for yet. I'm thinking of something much smaller though - maybe a 25-35 that I could use for small deer over here occasionally (with handloads).





Don't know why my post didn't show up under this. Try again. Where I live we don't have any restriction other than convicted felons and such like being prohibited from owning guns. I have more guns than I can ever hope to use and love every one of them. Too bad about some countries limiting ownership of guns so severly. What I posted that disapeared was that there are several gents on marlinowners forum that own and shoot the 25-35. A great deer cartridge in a fast handling package.I own a bunch of leverguns but haven't run up on the right 25-35 yet. If it do it will come home with me. reflex264

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Leverguns [Re: reflex264]
      #95667 - 01/02/08 12:14 PM

Quote:

9ThreeXFifty7- I am not the guide. I am a avid hunter and a crop sniper for the state.


Hope that clarifies a little. What is your favourite lever action and calibre by the way?
Quote:



I only have two, two I won't part with. One is a Marlin 1895 from the first year of "Ballard" rifling with which I've taken deer, bear, vermin, and a couple range cattle and the other a Winchester Trapper in .44 mag that we use mostly for butcher stock killing here on the ranch.

We've had a few around here, Winchesters and Marlins, and the only one I regret getting rid of was my "Model 36" stamped Marlin with a round bolt and standard rifling that made it a transition gun and really stumped old Bill Brophy until he found it had been parted together at the end of 36/beginning of 336 production. I killed a vervet monkey in Zululand with that thing, and then for some reason sold it some time later. I am not a big lever gun fan, but I would like to have that one back.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: Leverguns [Re: 9.3x57]
      #96135 - 06/02/08 11:33 PM

For info - interesting article on the 32 special in the current rifle shooter mag that turned up yesterday in the mail.

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