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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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reflex264
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Reged: 20/01/08
Posts: 50
Loc: TN
Thoughts on first double gun
      #95849 - 03/02/08 03:37 PM

Gentlemen, I have wanted a double rifle for a long time. Do I need one? No. I have more bolt and single boomers than I will ever need. My mind was poisoned at an early age from reading Africa hunting stories. Early on mention of a .577 got the wheels turning. Years later I started buying rifles as dollars allowed. Two of my favorites are my custom .416 Taylor and my Ruger .416 Rigby. Both are very accurate and managable. I still want a double. One of my hobbies is collecting actual on game performance data from big game hunts. In the process of watching hundreds of kills on video the cartridges that I always though would be stand-outs have not been the best performers. The .577 I thought I would have to have averages 4 shots per buff taken from a sample of 6 kills. The one cartridge I figured would been bringing up the rear (450/400} averages 3 shots from the videos from a much larger sample and from an even larger sample I have seen more buffalo on the ground from 3 shots or less from the .416 Rigby than any other rifle. Unfortunately the sample size of .577 kills and .600 kills are considerably smaller than the rest. Obviously there are less guns in these calibers around.The .470 which I also expected to be a run away is a 4 shot average as well. I am sure that there is enough experience here to add to what I have gathered. MY first trip to Africa is going to be with my .416 Taylor. It just works to good to leave it at home. Price will matter since there is no such thing as a cheap double. I have found a few good deals on 450/400s from time to time. Much cheaper than any .577 except for a few .577 BPEs running around. Also since from the data base the .416 Rigby did so well I would also expect the 500/.416 to do well. What do you fellers think? Experience in the field with the 450/400? reflex264

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: reflex264]
      #95854 - 03/02/08 05:45 PM

reflex:
How do you distinguish between the 'poser' who fires one shot and watches the animal run away, to be found dead some distance away and some time later for a "one shot kill"; and the experienced DR hunter who virtually double-taps for openers, then fires 2 more if the animal is still on its feet 3 seconds later.

I mostly use a .400 3-inch double ejector and would only resist firing a quick second shot if the first one caught the spine and dropped the animal on the spot.

Quote:

What do you fellers think? Experience in the field with the 450/400?



With Woodleigh softs or similar premium SP projectiles, a 400gr .400 will break both shoulders of a big buffalo bull but not exit, or break one shoulder and pull up under the hide. Complete pass-throughs almost every time with side-on lung-shots behind the shoulder. Good enough for buff? Hell yes!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: Marrakai]
      #95869 - 04/02/08 12:53 AM

reflex:

Are you trying to be talked into or out of buying your first double rifle?

That's an important question because there is nobody on this forum who will do the latter. There are many here, including I, who will do the former.

Good luck,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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bonanza
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: CptCurl]
      #95872 - 04/02/08 01:23 AM

Here is my learned opinion.

If you are not interested in becoming a collector then I recommend a Merkel 9.3x74R with a scope. You can pick these up for under $6000.00 and will serve you extremely well. Hell, you don't even have to reload.

If you know you want a pre-war British double, based on your budget, go for a 500 BPE with fluid steel barrels. If you can afford a .577 BPE get it. These are very popular and can be liquidated fast.

Stay away from odd-ball cartridges. These are for the true collectors who don't shot.

Some rifles are odd-ball, but great. I bought a fully nitro proof back-action, underlever 500/450 Hollis made in 1906 for a song. It's my favorite gun to shoot.

B.


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reflex264
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: bonanza]
      #95884 - 04/02/08 02:24 AM


reflex:
How do you distinguish between the 'poser' who fires one shot and watches the animal run away, to be found dead some distance away and some time later for a "one shot kill"; and the experienced DR hunter who virtually double-taps for openers, then fires 2 more if the animal is still on its feet 3 seconds later.

Marrakai:
On about everyone of these I have watched the animals are double tapped which I would do as well. The time line depending on the hit involves pretty quick follow ups on most with another shot being fired. I don't incluse the final safety shot in my total. That one needs done no matter what.One of the toughest animals I have seen was a large asiatic water buffalo that had 6 good hits from 2 .470NE rifles and If it hadn't of turned where the ph could break its pelvis it wouild still be running. Another animal that helps mess up the average with the .577 is a cape buff cow that takes 7 shots, all well placed. I figured that it would have mattered what was used on her. She just didn't want to go down.



reflex:

Are you trying to be talked into or out of buying your first double rifle?

Neither. Just which one to buy. On a budget so to speak. Still have a custom rifle being built with one to follow to pay for so I am getting started early shopping. Not looking to collect. Just want a good sturdy hunting rifle in pretty nice shape.



If you know you want a pre-war British double, based on your budget, go for a 500 BPE with fluid steel barrels. If you can afford a .577 BPE get it. These are very popular and can be liquidated fast.

Last year I found two of them that I thought were priced right but had some other projects going that kept me from buying them.

Thanks all for your replies. I am still listening. reflex264


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Ripp
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: reflex264]
      #95887 - 04/02/08 02:45 AM

I have had very similar experiences with the .416 on buffalo and whatever else I have shot--and agree with Marrakai in that pass throughs are not uncommon when taken through the lungs-unfortunately I learned this at the cost of shooting through one bull and also killing another bull standing on the off side of the first bull I shot..so based on your study--it took one bullet to kill two..not sure what that does to your numbers but it has to bring up the averages a bit..

I find the info very controversal, as described by others in this blog.. there are so many different circumstances, bullet types, types of shooters, ete.. that have a huge impact on results.

As to a double--I looked at several 450/400's while in Reno--of all on the "Entry" level..IMHO-I like the Heym the best--a bit more than some of the others but the quality is readily apparent when viewing the firearm..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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reflex264
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: Ripp]
      #95910 - 04/02/08 07:09 AM

I will be the first to agree that variables make a perfect data base impossible. I just find it very interesting to see how each combo performs. I guess the biggest single variable is the buffalo.reflex264

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Bill_Cooley
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: reflex264]
      #96111 - 06/02/08 03:20 PM

“I will be the first to agree that variables make a perfect data base impossible. I just find it very interesting to see how each combo performs. I guess the biggest single variable is the buffalo.” reflex264

I have watched some videos and wasn’t impressed with some of the shooting. Just remember they wouldn’t be as exciting to watch (or marketable) if the hunter drops the buff with the first shot or double taps it and it falls in a heap. I didn’t count how many head of game I saw drop with the first shot while walking the DSC show last month. nearly all the outfitters had videos running.
I think you have Ben given some good advise so far. I would recommend a new production rifle and have it ordered to fit you. Save the classic used English rifles till you have some experience with a double.
The 450/400 is going to be more popular now that ammo will be readily available. I would recommend the 470 caliber because of its easier to sell if you decide to upgrade. The same for a 9.3X74R this will give you a double you can shoot cheaply and kill everything. No it is not considered a “stopper” but it has been used successfully on everything.
Chapuis, Merkel, Krieghoff, Heym, Searcy are all makers you should look at.
I would try to go to one of the events where you can see and handle several makers rifles to get a better feel for what you like.
Bill


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Anonymous
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: reflex264]
      #96546 - 11/02/08 04:03 PM

Yes you need one if plan to hunt in style!

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: reflex264]
      #97356 - 23/02/08 01:48 PM


Gentlemen, and Mr. reflex264, IMHO, there will never be a cartridge fired from the shoulder that one can count on to down a Cape Buffalo, with only one shot, on the spot, down dead, unless the spine or brain is hit, switching off the lights!

That being said, all the chamberings being touted here, are fine, when the right shot placement is delivered. I've owned just about every chambering offered in a S/S double rifle, over the years. The largest being an 8 bore rifle, and three different 577 doubles, down to a little 300 Rook rifle. All have their niche, but none are all consuming as to suitability for ANY PURPOSE!

It has always been my opinion that a person who is looking to own his first double rifle should always buy "NEW". Buy it chambered for a medium chambering that is best suited as an all around rifle for hunting at home, but, at the same time, legal for Africa as well. With a double rifle that is very shootable, both for cost, of feeding, and acceptable recoil, as well as being replaceable if lost, or stolen. This, to me, means one of the so-called off the shelf rifles like Heym, Merkel, Chapuis, and Krieghoff. The chamberings should be no larger than 470NE, but are a better choice being one of the 9.3 to .458 chamberings, with my choice for a first double rifle being either a 9.3X74R, or a 450/400NE 3”,or both. with the nod given to the 450/400NE 3”. The 375 H&H flanged is a perfect choice, however, components, and loaded ammo, are hard to come by at times!

I was lucky enough to have been given an opportunity to handle and shoot the new HEYM PH model 88B chambered for 450/400NE 3” Jeffery at our last DRSS get together/hunt down at 4K Ranch, near Brady, Texas, this January! The importer, of Heym, and two factory people were there as well, and the rifle a production model.

This rifle not only is very well made, it fit me perfectly. It is in the 10-pound range, and perfectly balanced with 1/3 rd of the total weight between the hands. I had no trouble at all, hitting wind bounced balloons with ease. The rifle is extremely accurate, and is value for money spent, IMO!

IMO People who dream of their first double rifle tend to buy too large. This is partly because of gun/hunting magazine writer’s penchant for overstating the effectiveness of large rifles. You would not believe the number of large chambered double rifles I’ve bought at bargain prices because the guy who bought it new, decided suddenly he didn’t
need a rifle that big, or simply decided he is not a double rifle guy, after all. I have a 470NE Merkel 140-2 that is the result of a changed mind! He did give the 470NE a chance, by taking two good Elephant bulls, and three Cape Buffalo with it. If this guy had bought a 450/400NE 3” rifle, he may still be using it!

With equal shot placement, in most cases, a 577NE will do nothing better, or quicker than a like placed .450 bullet, of equal quality. I can hear the sighs over the Internet, and can predict the string of numbers being typed as we speak, but nonetheless from 9.3 to 577NE a bullet in the brain is death in mid stride. Taylor said it best in his book African rifles when he said, paraphrased here, The idea that a large bore rifle is automatically a stopper of a conflict, with a dangerous game animal, is a careless, and potentially dangerous concept! This was his response to someone who disagreed with his choice of a 450/400NE 3” double rifle for elephant in tight cover. It is true that big bones are damaged better by heavy large bullets, than the same quality smaller bullet. In fact a smaller bullet tends to over penetrate, and is not the best choice in herd shooting, being a danger for the killing of an animal behind the one being shot at.

There is not a better choice for a first time double rifle today than a well made S/S double chambered for the 450/400NE, if you are going to have only one, God forbid, to hunt it all from hogs to elephant, with the bulk of hunting being for animals topping out at cape buffalo. For Lion, I don’t think there is a better chambering, or platform than a well made and appointed S/S double rifle, with two triggers, manual safety, ejectors, if you want, and the rifle is only made better with a properly mounted scope in quality QD mounts!


………….All just my opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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hoppdoc
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #97359 - 23/02/08 02:36 PM

I second Mac's assessment --
I think a 450/400 would be a great Double to have.A Heym would be great!

Get it with the bells and whistles and with qd claw mounts for the option of using a scope--
I doubt you would ever sell it. It may become your new favorite African gun!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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bwananelson
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: hoppdoc]
      #97362 - 23/02/08 03:09 PM

WHY NOT A ZOLI 450 400 OU COMES WITH SCOPE MOUNTS CASE NICLLY MADE PRICED RIGHT

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: bwananelson]
      #97388 - 24/02/08 02:58 AM

Quote:

WHY NOT A ZOLI 450 400 OU COMES WITH SCOPE MOUNTS CASE NICLLY MADE PRICED RIGHT





The Zoli is certainly an option! The cost is one reason, not a very good one, but a choice never the less. If the draw-backs of this rifle become obvious during a close quarters charge, where absolute dependability is very important, the last thought going through your mind, will not be how much you saved when you bought the rifle, I assure you!

In regard to the ZOLI O/U double rifle, I’m not sure they chamber their rifle for the 450/400NE 3”, but if they do, the rifle must be set up properly, or all bets or off! I know HEYM makes their O/U double chambered for 470 NE, 450NE 3 ¼”, and 375 H&H flanged, but it is set up properly for dangerous game use, or as close as an O/U can be set up for that purpose. It will cost you considerably more than a ZOLI, however.

IMO, the O/U double rifle is not the best choice for a rifle used for dangerous game. The O/U has several drawbacks that can be eliminated. However the eliminated features brings the cost up considerably, and all are not ilimentable (not a word)! I must admit, an O/U that is set properly, is far better than a PF bolt rifle, or even a CRF bolt rifle, but not by much, IMO! A well set up S/S double rifle is head and shoulders above them all, and is as good as it gets, in a fight!

A properly set up double rifle, for dangerous game use, is first and foremost of side-by-side configuration. The S/S platform allows the rifle to be re-loaded both barrels simultaneously, with the action only needing to be opened about 1/3 rd as wide as an O/U to reach both barrels. Secondly, the rifle should have “TWO” triggers, with both barrels cocked on opening of the rifle.

Most O/U double rifles only cock the bottom barrel, and the usual single trigger is not selective, so that the shooter has only one choice to fire the bottom barrel only, with the recoil cocking the second barrel. The single trigger has two very serious faults! #1, the single trigger is the only item that comes on any double rifle that if broken in any way, turns a double rifle to a 10-pound club, taking the whole rifle out of service. #2 With a recoil cocked top barrel, if one has a dud, or a squib load in the bottom barrel the top barrel is not cocked.

Even if the O/U rifle cocks both barrels on opening, and the rifle is fitted with a single non-selective trigger, it automatically fires the bottom barrel first. This may not be the barrel one chooses to fire first, with a soft in one barrel, and a solid in the other. With this type O/U a misfire, or broken striker on the bottom barrel, and the trigger is a mechanically advanced trigger (positively advanced trigger to the next barrel) so the top barrel can be fired. NOW, you re-load, and the trigger has to go through the bottom barrel with it’s broken striker, before the top barrel can be fired. Effectively giving you a single shot rifle, that requires the trigger to be pulled twice for every shot.

The next thing that usually comes on double rifles of the O/U configuration is an auto safety, some that cannot be changed to manual. A DGR double should never be fitted with an automatic safety. Auto safeties can, and have gotten people killed.

If one MUST have an O/U double rifle for a DGR, it absolutely must be set up properly! The rifle must be a manually cocked rifle for both barrels on opening. It must have two triggers, so one can choose with barrel he wants to fire first.

In the case of a misfire on the first barrel, one simply changes triggers, and fires the other barrel, as long as both barrels are cocked on opening. In this instance, a broken trigger, a broken tumbler spring. or striker, and you still have working single shot. With a single trigger, or a recoil cocked second barrel, the rifle can be a death warrant if something breaks.

IMO, the best double for use in a close in fight, is a S/S double, fitted with two triggers, and manual safety, chambered for a low pressure “FLANGED”cartridge, of from 9.3 up to about 577NE, with a very good choice in the 400-to 450 range of bore diameter, that pushes a heavy for caliber bullet at a fairly modest speed, (in the 2000 to 2550 fps range) in the 10 to 12 pound range, and fitted to the shooter!

I have both O/U and S/S double rifles, and both double and single triggers, and some with auto safeties, that are cocked by the recoil of the lower barrel being fired. However, these rifles are used on the firing range, and on nothing more dangerous that a whitetail deer. All my doubles, that are used for dangerous game, are Side by side, with double triggers, and manual safeties, and I have zero concern when moving into the weeds with a bite-back! The thought, however, of moving into the long grass with a punctured, and pissed off LION with an O/U double rifle in my hands that is fitted with a single non-selective trigger, and an auto safety, absolutely scars hell out of me!

The choice of a double rifle, or any other type rifle, that is to be used to pull your nuts out of the fire, is a personal one, and if an O/U, with a single trigger, auto safety, and a recoil cocked second barrel, floats your boat, then set sail! My choice will be something quite different, however!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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JPK
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: bwananelson]
      #97391 - 24/02/08 03:34 AM

The Big Bores, .458" and above, shine for elephants. If more than a couple elephants are in your future, start in thr .458" range. Perhaps with the 450NE 3 1/4", for which Hornaday is already making bullets with loaded ammo and brass due out this summer, or the 470NE, loaded by Federal and others, with Hornaday gearing up also.

If you don't see many elephants in you future, lesser cartridges are probably the better choice, with maybe the 450/400 the best choice - if you can find one at 9 1/2lbs or less. No need to hump alot of weight for that level of recoil and performance.

Reasoning:

Elephants are relatively easy to turn with a less than perfect brain shot with a heavy bullet, this from long history and recent history as well. See for example the Zim study that found 1.) most attacks came from not the ele hunted but a companion ele, and 2.) a great majority of hunters using a less than .458" rifle were seriuosly injured - ussually killed - but 50% of hunters using .458" + rifles escaped serious injury. You can find an article reviewing this study somewhere on the African Hunter Magazine website, though I have trouble finding it from time to time.

History also teaches that buffalo are relatively difficult to turn without a perfect brain or spine shot so a close miss with a big bore is little advantage to a close miss with a smaller rifle. Given this situation, why pay the price in recoil and weight?


Mac implies that Taylor relied on the 450/400 for elephants, but this is not the fact. Taylor explicitly states that he killed the great majority of the elephants he killed, I recall that he quoted 75%, with the 450NE No2 and the 500/450, prefering the former cartridge but prefering the H&H rifles in the later cartridge because "they average a pound lighter". Next up was the 500/465, also an H&H proprietary round.

Taylor did not like the 470 because of the greater ogive of the Kynoch 470 bullets, which he found to often stray from straight line penetration. Not a noteworthy factor with today's bullets, imo.

Moreover, Taylor describes the ideal elephant hunter's battery as consisting of a medium bore magazine rifle, aka bolt rifle, for more open opportunities - of which there are few today, the 450 class for heavy brush and a 577 or 600 for really thick cover and for following wounded eles.

Taylor contradicts himself quite a bit, though, for example with the 450/400 bit and also saying that a pair of Westley Richards rifles, a bolt and a double in 425wr would make a perfect set with the addition of a 577 +. (The bit about the 425wr is heresy to the double rifle crowd since the cartridge is both "rimless" and has a rebated rim to boot. For more heresy, Taylor liked the WR single trigger!) So rather than put much weight on some of Taylor's later pandering to his sponsors, it is more realistic to rely on what Taylor did in practice, which is rely day to day on the 450 class for elephants.

But Taylor did believe that the 450/400 was the perfect buffalo cartridge.

My personal experience tells me that for the most fun hunting buff, hunt with an open sighted double rifle of whatever cartridge is legal, but if you are a horn hunter, more interested in the tape measure than the fun of, frustrating at times, close stalking, hunt with a scoped bolt rifle - or perhaps a scoped double.

JPK

Edited by JPK (24/02/08 03:50 AM)


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Paul
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: JPK]
      #108860 - 03/07/08 10:29 PM

Is there anything wrong with the newish .500/.416 NE for a beginner's double rifle? Heym chamber it but I find little about it in this forum. - Paul

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BigFiveJack
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: Paul]
      #108891 - 04/07/08 05:05 AM

I feel the faster velocity of the 500/416
compared to the 450/400 is only relative
on shots that are 50 or more yards longer.
I also think that part of the experience is
to get really close to the dangerous game,
within 25 yards if doable, so what's the
point of the extra speed? I vote for the
450/400 caliber.

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member


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hoppdoc
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: Paul]
      #108896 - 04/07/08 05:50 AM

Paul, The velocity of the 500/416 would be higher but the real fly in the ointment for me would be the additional weight.

I would think a 450/400 would be great at about 9 pounds with a qd scope to attach as needed.

Give me the 450/400 vs any 500/416, especially if I have to carry the rifle all day and really hunt it!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (04/07/08 09:20 AM)


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xausa
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Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: reflex264]
      #108901 - 04/07/08 07:10 AM

As members of this forum are well aware and no doubt bored to have to be reminded of again, my first double rifle was a Krieghoff O/U in .458 Winchester Magnum, with interchangeable .375 H&H Magnum barrels. Both barrel sets were equipped with claw mounted scopes. The action featured double under lugs and Kersten cross bolts, ejectors, manual safety, double triggers, both barrels cocked on opening, and the stock was built to my specifications. This was at a time when Kynoch had ceased manufacturing African calibers and only the stocks which were on hand were available in the future. Kyoch cartridge cases were Berdan primed and did not lend themselves to repeated reloading.

In subsequent years leterally dozens of double rifles passed through my store. Most were acquired in London, from the Holland & Holland showroom, or from Paul Roberts, and most were well used. Of those I sold, I particularly remember a Westley Richands boxlock S/S in .500 NE, which was slightly off face, but nonetheless shot acceptably, a Westley Richards Ovundo (O/U) in 400/350, with hand detachable boxlocks, and a Westley Richards S/S with hand detachable boxlocks in caliber 6.5 Mannlicher. There was no reliable ammunition source for any of those calibers, which is why I let them go. I still regret it.

My Krieghoff has accounted for one elephant, one Cape buffalo, one lion, one leopard, one eland, one greater kudu and one lesser kudu. If I had had the .500 available, I would have used it for the elephant and buffalo. Since I did not, the rest of my four elephants and six Cape buffalo were killed with my wildcat .505 bolt gun.

I presently have building for me another Krieghoff boxlock identical to the one I already own, except that it is on a 12 gauge frame (only 16 gauge frames were available when I bought my first DR.) It has one set of barrels in .500 NE and another in 8X75S, and both barrel sets are equipped with scopes. I also have on order a sidelock Krieghoff in caliber 9.3X74R similarly equipped.

I have nothing against S/S doubles. They are part of the British tradition, and ideal for someone who has grown up with a double trigger S/S shotgun (which I did not.) No doubt they are margainally quicker to reload, although I had not trouble getting off a quick six shots with my O/U, when the occasion called for it.

.458 is not an ideal double rifle cartridge, but it was widely avaiable in Africa at the time I bought my rifle and I suppose still is. For a one week hunting trip with limited opportunity for dangerous game, that may not be a consideration, but for a five week safari, with elephant, buffalo and rhino all on the program, that certainly was.

Your choice of double rifle depends on a number of factors, most of which are unique to you. Are you interested in a practical tool, which won't let you down in a tight spot, as I was? Have you shot a lot with an O/U shotgun, as I had? Is cost a consideration, as it was for me? Are you wed to the British tradition of oversize case capacity cartridges and thumb sized bullets? Are you an admirer of mechanisme and workmanship? Do you just want to dip your toe into the water of double rifle ownership, or do you want to plunge in all the way immediately?

There are plenty of rifles which will satisfy your every wish available, as this thread amply demonstrates. You need to write down a list of your priorities and once you have done that, likely as not, you will have answered your own question.


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: xausa]
      #108908 - 04/07/08 08:26 AM

Xausa-

A droplock in 6.5 mannlicher!
Man, I'm really feeling your pain over that one right now.
I'm sure you'll be forgiven for that when the light comes to you, but in the meantime be easy on yourself - it must be hard at times...



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: xausa]
      #108934 - 04/07/08 05:12 PM

Quote:

a Westley Richards Ovundo (O/U) in 400/350, with hand detachable boxlocks, and a Westley Richards S/S with ahnd detachable boxlocks in caliber 6.5 Mannlicher. There was no reliable ammunition source for any of those calibers, which is why I let them go. I still regret it.



Ouch!


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Paul
.400 member


Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: Thoughts on first double gun [Re: hoppdoc]
      #108937 - 04/07/08 05:35 PM

Thanks Hoppdoc and BigJackFive,
as I said in another string, I was thinking of getting a Heym 500/.416 regulated for the slowish Norma cartridge with 450 grain Woodleighs. In the event the recoil was a bit much or that I really didn't need the extra power or penetration, the plan was to load 410 gr bullets down to the same speed (about that of the 450/.400), hoping they would regulate there. The weight of the rifle doesn't scare me since I've been carrying a Sako .338 up hill and down dale for 27 years. It's nearly 10 pounds when loaded and the weight makes it a pussy to shoot.

Issues that do play on my mind are ammo availability and, to a lesser degree, cost. What choice would there be in Australia with the 500/.416? If I bought a 450/.400, would the economical Hornady stuff be good enough for cape buffalo?

Also, I notice Woodleigh make two bullet diameters for the 450/.400. Is there any danger in buying an older rifle of getting one with the wrong bore size for the Hornady cartridges?

Thanks for any further thoughts
- Paul


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