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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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squirrelmonkey1
.224 member


Reged: 26/09/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Manitoba ,Canada
Disk set strikers
      #95725 - 02/02/08 02:49 AM

Anyone have any dimension drawings or photos of striker disks ?
any info regarding thread pitches, lengths of bushings etc. would be appreciated.
Regards,
Tom

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buckbrush
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Reged: 23/08/07
Posts: 120
Loc: Alberta
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: squirrelmonkey1]
      #95851 - 03/02/08 04:33 PM

thread pitch would depend on the diameter of your discs and the amount of (depth) of the steel where you are drilling out for them. Certainly N.F. or N.E.F. or the metric equivalent of them. Some people aparently don't bother with them, and some actions already have them.

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squirrelmonkey1
.224 member


Reged: 26/09/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Manitoba ,Canada
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: buckbrush]
      #95853 - 03/02/08 05:00 PM

Thanks Buckbrush.

I have not seen any disk profiles so I don't know what size I will make..
I'm thinking of a custom tap of say 32 TPI, a disk diameter of approx .650" or larger, heat treated etc.
These disks are meant to guard against primer setback on the face.
I don't have replacable strikers on my gun.

pic or sketches would be helpfull.

Regards,
Tom

Edited by squirrelmonkey1 (03/02/08 05:02 PM)

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Gary6034
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Reged: 15/11/07
Posts: 7
Loc: United States
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: squirrelmonkey1]
      #99328 - 16/03/08 06:51 AM

Buy Ellis Brown's book on converting shotguns to double rifles. He has a section on building bushed strikers. He has step-by-step instructions and he includes all the dimensions. It is well worth it.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: Gary6034]
      #99329 - 16/03/08 07:07 AM


May I ask are they really necessary with today's good ammo
and the unlikely event of a primer rupture which was more
of a problem in the old days ?

Your thoughts ?

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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: 500Nitro]
      #99349 - 16/03/08 11:59 AM

It would depend on the diamiter of the existing firing pin and the closeness of the fit in the breach face.. Small pins/strikers and close tollerences and I don't think I would, it is a lot of hassle. The geometery can be difficult, the threads are very fine to cut etc...

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: Bramble]
      #99353 - 16/03/08 06:58 PM

Quote:

These disks are meant to guard against primer setback on the face.


Squirl:
Not sure what you mean by this, further explanation would help.
It is my understanding that disc-set strikers are a very sensible way to fit replaceable firing-pins to hammerless guns, especially side-locks, with the added feature of a 'valve' to prevent gas entering the stock-head through the action in the (unlikely) event of a pierced primer. If this ever happens, the stock will usually be a write-off, and in the case of a box-lock a large sliver of wood could puncture the shooters eyes or face.

I have witnessed this with an FN SxS shotgun: luckily the right side blew off and I found the chunk of stock-wood some 20 metres away!

For shotgun conversions, as others have said, it is to permit a reduction in diameter of the firing pin itself, to prevent primer-cup flow-back into an oversize pin-hole in the breech-face. Maybe the primer would then rupture, maybe not, but it would almost certainly lock the action closed!

Small firing-pins are a must, and low-pressure cartridges with tough primers help guard against this risk: I use Remington 9 1/2 M instead of Federal 215s in my un-bushed shotgun conversion, just in case! Never had a problem....

My .577 Light Nitro conversion:



Bush this baby!!!


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
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Re: Disk set strikers [Re: Marrakai]
      #99363 - 16/03/08 10:43 PM

Maybe that second one has graduated to "wall-hanger" status!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: CptCurl]
      #99366 - 16/03/08 11:19 PM

Quote:

Maybe that second one has graduated to "wall-hanger" status!

Curl




Marrakai, wall hand a gun, you haven't met him !!!

While it's good to shoot even 1 grain loads, it's a shooter !!!

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John303
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Reged: 16/11/06
Posts: 243
Loc: Canada
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: 500Nitro]
      #99371 - 16/03/08 11:57 PM

Just a question from someone not to knowledgeable on the subject - but could not the pin holes be slightly cone drilled from the face, welded shut, filed flush, redrilled smaller and appropriate smaller dia. firing pins made? Seems a simpler route but maybe not. Any comments would be appreciated. --- Thanks in advance--- John303.

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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: John303]
      #99396 - 17/03/08 03:55 AM

The short answer is yes, but watch the heat spread use heat sinks and heat stop paste. Drilling will be a bitch as the weld will be as hard as a whores heart.

If one is not going to go with true strikers but just bushing the existing firing pin holes for smaller pins, then drill them out about 5/16 to suit thread using a counterbore drill with a pilot ground on existing firing pin size with a 1/6" step to form a shoulder 3/8. Tap for a fine thread. Turn up bushes in 4140 or similar, correct length with shoulder with a smaller firing pin hole about .080". leave them too long so that you can grab the sides with a pair of grips. Put some black loctite on them and wind them in. Leave for 24 hours, cut them short and file flush. When you get close use a fine hone, not a bastard file!

Regards

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squirrelmonkey1
.224 member


Reged: 26/09/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Manitoba ,Canada
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: Bramble]
      #99511 - 18/03/08 12:59 PM

Thanks to you all for your input..
I've been in absentia from this forum as of late.
I have not been able to find a copy of Browns book on shotgun to double rifle conversions.
It's Out of print at the moment..
Anyone have a copy to sell?
Anyway, I want to fit my action with firing pin bushings to guard against primer set back.
I have seen this occur on another shotgun conversion in the past.
The material behind the face at the pin locations was found to be very thin even though the action had a hardness (case)? of around 35 Rc. so, Over time after firing a couple of hundred rounds an obvious depression in the face occured by way of the primer?
There did not appear to be cratering around the pin indent or increased head diameter so hot loads were ruled out.
I think the material thickness at the pin locations on my action is also thin and believe,
bushings will stave off any potential problems in this regard?

opinions?

Tom

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: squirrelmonkey1]
      #99522 - 18/03/08 06:26 PM

Quote:

Over time after firing a couple of hundred rounds an obvious depression in the face occured by way of the primer?




One question.
Did the owner of that rifle use snap caps in it?

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: 4seventy]
      #99527 - 18/03/08 08:12 PM

squirl:
Thanks for the explaination, though I must confess I've never seen or heard of anything like that happening in my circle of hunting friends and aquaintances!

My initial reaction would be "chuck the bloody thing away!", but as 500Nitro is quick to point out, I'm happy to attempt restoration on just about anything worthwhile! The question is, does that primer-setback failure represent poor metallurgy or lousy materials and workmanship throughout the rest of the gun? Certainly cause for concern IMHO.

Anyone else seen this?

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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4seventy
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Re: Disk set strikers [Re: Marrakai]
      #99528 - 18/03/08 08:29 PM

Quote:

Anyone else seen this?


No.....but

Maybe something similar, but it was not caused by anything like primers "collapsing" the breach face though, which is what is being described here I think.

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ArnoldB
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Reged: 23/07/04
Posts: 139
Loc: Uk
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: 4seventy]
      #99539 - 19/03/08 12:00 AM

Quote:

Over time after firing a couple of hundred rounds an obvious depression in the face occured by way of the primer?



Tom


At a guess that would have been a boxlock action with non independant firing pins?

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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: ArnoldB]
      #99617 - 19/03/08 09:37 AM

I would be interested to measure the headspace in that rifle.

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squirrelmonkey1
.224 member


Reged: 26/09/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Manitoba ,Canada
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: Bramble]
      #99830 - 21/03/08 07:25 AM

Hi Guy's,
I managed get in touch with the fella who's rifle shows a set back depression on the face at the firing pin locations..
Turns out that this action had the firing pin holes welded and then re drilled similar to John .303's suggestion but the action was not re-heat treated !
So..It will be very soft at that location for sure !
A solution would be to bush these holes now IMO.


Tom

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: squirrelmonkey1]
      #99836 - 21/03/08 09:16 AM

Ah! That explains it....

Now a prime candidate for bushing as you say, if only to save the gun!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Disk set strikers [Re: squirrelmonkey1]
      #99879 - 21/03/08 06:41 PM


Quote:

Turns out that this action had the firing pin holes welded and then re drilled similar to John .303's suggestion but the action was not re-heat treated !
So..It will be very soft at that location for sure !




squirrelmonkey
What make action was this and did the owner use snapcaps in that rifle?

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: squirrelmonkey1]
      #99903 - 22/03/08 12:28 AM

Quote:

Hi Guy's,
I managed get in touch with the fella who's rifle shows a set back depression on the face at the firing pin locations..
Turns out that this action had the firing pin holes welded and then re drilled similar to John .303's suggestion but the action was not re-heat treated !
So..It will be very soft at that location for sure !
A solution would be to bush these holes now IMO.


Tom



Hi!

Wouldnt it get harder after welding?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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squirrelmonkey1
.224 member


Reged: 26/09/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Manitoba ,Canada
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: 450_366]
      #102955 - 20/04/08 02:37 AM

Hello all,
Andreas,
Welding does not cause the base metal to get harder unless one uses the incorrect type of welding rod/alloy for the material being welded i.e 7018 on cast iron... bad combination..hard and untouchable with HSS end mills, drills etc. but very weldable none the less. The coreect rod TO USE In this case would be NIROD (55% Nickle for a mild ,machinable weld on cast iron.) 7018 will make 4140 tougher as well so one must use a rod suitable for gun work and prefferably Tig weld for a more precise job.
The high heat generated by welding followed by slow cooling actually anneals the base metal.
So heat stop paste on the surroundind areas is required to preserve heat treatment and minimise distortions in the finished parts.

one can inadvertantly harden an area if it's not free of oil and or grease before welding.
Remember you have to be able to mill , drill or otherwise finish the parts you are welding?

Tom

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Disk set strikers [Re: squirrelmonkey1]
      #102965 - 20/04/08 05:49 AM

My tought was that the weld beeing cooled down quickly from the surrounding metal and that way hardened.

I have welded with tig and it became hard as rock and also the mig gets harder but the ordinary mma
seem to heat up so much surrounding metal so it doesent get as hard. The torch also heats up the surroundings so i have at least never had any problems. But this is only on the added metal not the "old".

But to be fair i have never tought of using a weld on a rifle, but it could work.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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