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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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NorthernBob
.224 member


Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 37
Loc: Northern Alberta
J.P. Sauer, what have I got?
      #91304 - 12/12/07 04:32 AM

I first posted this in the photo archive by mistake and didn't know how to move it. Sorry.

I recently picked up this J.P. Sauer "Oberndorf Mauser". I was looking for a classic styled rifle but I don't know much about them. I was hoping someone could give me some information on it. According to articles by Jeff Stephens in the fall and winter 2004 issues of Double Gun Journal #206010 would have been made around 1912. Does anyone know if Jeff is still collecting serial and mauser numbers to establish Sauer manufacture dates? It is an 8x57 with the .318 bore, swaging and reloading dies came with it. It has the half octagon/half round barrel and a full rib. I was surprised at how light it is, 7 lbs even with the thin leather sling. Is that the usual weight for this type of rifle? It has been drilled and tapped for scope mounting and from the pictures on this site it looks like the bolt handle has been replaced. Other than that it looks original to me. Most of the rifles like this I have seen on the internet have set triggers, but this has a two stage trigger. I plan to have it reblued, would the proper type be rust or hot blue. Are there other pictures of the rifle that would help? Thank you for any comments, good or bad.

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szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2112
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: J.P. Sauer, what have I got? [Re: NorthernBob]
      #91309 - 12/12/07 05:29 AM

RUST blue is the way to go on such a classic as this.
Great rifle!
Congratulations.

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NorthernBob
.224 member


Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 37
Loc: Northern Alberta
Re: J.P. Sauer, what have I got? [Re: szihn]
      #91313 - 12/12/07 06:11 AM

Thanks szihn. The gunsmith I spoke to about it wanted to hot blue it. I just thought I should add some of the stamps on the gun. On the left side of the ring it has 2.5g G.B.R and below that St.M.G. Another thread mentioned GBR means the load with Gewehr Blattchen Pulver (military flake powder)? What would St.M.G stand for? On the barrel just ahead of the ring FLUID STEEL KRUPP ESSEN is engraved. J.P. Sauer & Son, Suhl, Prussia is on the matted full length rib. 8 m.m. is on the left side of the barrel. I haven't taken off the stock yet to check the proof marks. It has what looks to be an ivory insert in the front sight. It has one fixed sight marked 80 and one folding leaf marked 175. The bolt shroud and safety ect. appears to be case hardened, does that sound right? It has some basic engraving on the barrel wedge and screw heads. Would this be one of the Schoverling, Daly and Gales rifles imported to New York mentioned in Jeff Stephens articles? Were these guns fairly common? I don't recall seeing one in Canada before. Were there different grades? Thanks again for the help.

Bob

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szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2112
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: J.P. Sauer, what have I got? [Re: NorthernBob]
      #91316 - 12/12/07 07:51 AM

The transliteration is;
Gewehr = Rifle.
Blattchen = Sheet (as in paper)
Pulver = Powder
A translation is Flake Rifle Powder.

I don't know what St. M.G. would stand for. Sorry.

And yes, cased bolt shroud and safety are not uncommon.

A don't know if it's a New Your importers rifle or not. I don't have any knowledge of that.
Not much help....am I?

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dons
.333 member


Reged: 18/08/07
Posts: 431
Loc: Essex
Re: J.P. Sauer, what have I got? [Re: szihn]
      #91320 - 12/12/07 09:04 AM

St mG stands for Stahlmantel Geschoss which translates to steel jacketed bullet.

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: J.P. Sauer, what have I got? [Re: NorthernBob]
      #91333 - 12/12/07 01:42 PM

Bob,

What you have is one beautiful rifle.

Steve Zihn us a very accomplished gunsmith and Don S is a collector of fine rifles, so you have two fine gentlemen advising you. There are other experts here who should step in soon and help you even more.

BTW I have no idea if the Sauer company wuld still have records - their factory was badly damaged in the war - but if you think that contacting them might help, I know someone whom I have occasionally been in touch with over the years and whose e-mail ID I could send you if you want me to. He is a fine gentleman and would be more than happy to help you if he could. Just send me a PM and let me know.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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NorthernBob
.224 member


Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 37
Loc: Northern Alberta
Re: J.P. Sauer, what have I got? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #91372 - 13/12/07 03:18 AM

Steve, Don, Mehul, thank you for the information. According to the articles I mentioned above the records were lost. The purpose of the articles was to recreate the dates of production of the lost Sauer records. The Sauer Mauser rifles were important to that end as they were numbered with both the Sauer and Mauser numbers. The Mauser dates were known so they were collecting them to date the Sauer serial numbers. Thanks again.

Bob

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Taylor416
.300 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 161
Loc: Central West, New South Wales....
Re: J.P. Sauer, what have I got? [Re: NorthernBob]
      #93078 - 31/12/07 11:27 PM

Bloody beeeeutiful!!!!!!!


Chris

--------------------
Love to hunt!

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NorthernBob
.224 member


Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 37
Loc: Northern Alberta
Re: J.P. Sauer, what have I got? [Re: Taylor416]
      #93605 - 06/01/08 10:29 AM

Thanks all for your replies. I have a few more questions about this gun. Would I be able to use the standard reloading data for the 8x57 in my manuals or would I have to reduce them. One mentions reducing the load by 25% for rifles with the .318 bore diameter. Is that only for the older models, not the 98s? Does it make a difference with the case hardened bolt? Is it unusual to find these models without the cheek piece? It seems all the photos of the Sauers have them. Also, the gun value book I have shows the Sauers to be a fraction of the value of similar Mauser manufactured rifles. Was the quality that different? I'm not planning to sell mine, just curious. Thank you.
Bob

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bpesteve
.300 member


Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 106
Loc: Sunset side up
Re: J.P. Sauer, what have I got? [Re: NorthernBob]
      #93972 - 10/01/08 10:26 AM

A handsome rifle indeed! A couple of tidbits: the style of the load mark (2,5 g GBP over St m G) indicates a proof date between 1892 and 1912. The fact that it is marked "Fluid Steel" in English indicates that the rifle was made for export from Germany, which probably also has something to do with the absence of a cheekpiece and the single trigger. Nice nice nice - congrats!

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NorthernBob
.224 member


Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 37
Loc: Northern Alberta
Re: J.P. Sauer, what have I got? [Re: bpesteve]
      #94014 - 11/01/08 03:49 AM

Thank you, Steve. It is a very nice design. I look forward to hunting her.

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tkv000
.300 member


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 118
Loc: Canada
Re: J.P. Sauer, what have I got? [Re: NorthernBob]
      #94016 - 11/01/08 04:25 AM

I'll take it! Very very nice unit!

--------------------
"…and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him,"

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nhdblfan
.300 member


Reged: 31/08/07
Posts: 102
Loc: NH
Re: J.P. Sauer, what have I got? [Re: tkv000]
      #95658 - 01/02/08 10:59 AM

That is a sweet gun,
do not let anyone near it with hot blue,rust blue is the only way to go.Jeff posts on the doublegun board (happy to provide a link if that allowed on here)from time to time and may be able to help with info.Another gun guy who is into those Sauers is Kirby at vintage doubles.I think I he knows Jeff S too.

http://www.vintagedoubles.com/index.php

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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: J.P. Sauer, what have I got? [Re: NorthernBob]
      #95661 - 01/02/08 11:46 AM

If you are shootin .318 bullets in a 318 bore, for the same weight of projectile I see no reason to reduce the loads 25%. I think this stems from the lowere SAMMI pressure verses the CIP pressure due to the unsafe practice of firing .323 bullets in a .318 bore.
In Europe because the 8x57 is a popular caliber people are more used to the difference between the J and JS cartridges.

Regards

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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: J.P. Sauer, what have I got? [Re: Bramble]
      #95699 - 01/02/08 09:30 PM

There's no need to fire 8mm .323 bullets. Woodleigh offers a 200grain .318" round nose soft point specifically for the 8x57

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