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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Why is the 12 Bore a good Killer & 700 Nitro Not ?
      #95445 - 29/01/08 09:58 PM

Can you guys inform me on this may be question ?

I have read & heard from others that the 700 NE is no great killer and has poor penetration ,I have not used one so don,t know the truth ,could be bad press like on the 458 Win which IS unture!
Then on the other hand the 12 Bore is a wonder killer even on Elephants ( well Indian any way )with harden LEAD slugs ,the 700 Ne has good bullets ? and solids so how can this be ?
I have a big 12 Bore but have not put it to use "YET"

What are your thoughts on this please

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Why is the 12 Bore a good Killer & 700 Nitro Not ? [Re: Sarg]
      #95446 - 29/01/08 10:00 PM



Either of them in the right spot will kill
an animal.

But if you hit an animal in the wrong spot
- ie the Foot, then neither are any good.

Just my HO.


Have enough animals been killed with a 700NE
to make a judgement ?

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Why is the 12 Bore a good Killer & 700 Nitro Not ? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #95456 - 30/01/08 01:09 AM

A 12 bore is not a good ele caliber due to shallow penetration, which arises directly from relatively low muzzle velocity combined with bullets of low sectional density.

The .700 NE is also known to be a poor penetrator. I spoke with a PH from Zim who went on a hunt where the client shot an ele in the head 4 times with a .700 NE and did not kill it. Of course all shots missed the brain. Then he grabbed the PH's .505 and killed the ele.

But back to the 12 bore, I seriously question anyone who would promote that as an elephant caliber.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Why is the 12 Bore a good Killer & 700 Nitro Not ? [Re: 500grains]
      #95457 - 30/01/08 01:12 AM

Historically elephant hunters I believe tended to use an 8-bore.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: Why is the 12 Bore a good Killer & 700 Nitro Not ? [Re: 500grains]
      #95458 - 30/01/08 01:24 AM

Quote:

shot an ele in the head 4 times with a .700 NE and did not kill it. Of course all shots missed the brain.


I read a similar story about the .600 - 6 shots failed to penetrate the skull, I think because of poor bullet performance

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DarylS
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Re: Why is the 12 Bore a good Killer & 700 Nitro Not ? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95473 - 30/01/08 05:36 AM

There is no accounting for poor bullet performance which limits penetration. This is not a condemnation of the calibre, but only of the bullets used.
; As to the 12 bore being an Elephant gun, this 'history' belongs to India, where it was the 'second' choice, the 14 bore being the primary and more popular size for ll dangerous Indian game. It's history of being a great elephant calibre stems back to the mid 1800's with the use of hardened ROUND balls and black powder - "through and through" was Baker's quote and that was with a mere 4 to 4 1/2 drams of Curtis and Harvey's best. The contention was that the 12 or 10 wasn't needed as the 14 would shoot all the way through their head. Certainly through and through should work. After that, they played somewhat with explosive 8 and 10 bore slugs for tigers with penetration normally limited to 10 or 12" - adjustable, of course by varrying from soft to hard bullets.
; How that pertains to African Elephants, I don't know - but HARD balls or bullets must be used.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Why is the 12 Bore a good Killer & 700 Nitro Not ? [Re: DarylS]
      #95477 - 30/01/08 05:48 AM

Quote:

There is no accounting for poor bullet performance which limits penetration. This is not a condemnation of the calibre, but only of the bullets used.


Of course! If you can't hit what you're aiming at and if the bullet can't reach what you want to hit, there is no point pulling the trigger. Other than trying to frighten the beast to death with the blast

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bigdog
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Re: Why is the 12 Bore a good Killer & 700 Nitro Not ? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95492 - 30/01/08 10:42 AM

With a 700 nitro express and 1000 grain woodleigh jacketed bullets, Safari Kid shot an American buffalo in the chest and the bullet penetrated out his ass,8 ft of meat and bone later. I realize an American bison is no elephant but 8 ft of penetration is not bad in my book.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Loc: Denmark
Re: Why is the 12 Bore a good Killer & 700 Nitro Not ? [Re: bigdog]
      #95646 - 01/02/08 06:15 AM

In most litterature I have, the 10 bore rifle was THE predominant caliber in India for elephants before the entry of cordite express catridges ....8 & 4 bores was preferred in Africa.
However...several of the old catalogs mentions a "special 12bore 9 dram load" as the most powerfull 12bore ever made. I have looked in many many huntingbooks/catalogs regarding this 12 bore to determen the caselength, but canīt find any info. Stuffing 9 dram of black powder into a 12 bore case, a caselength of atleast 3.5" most be used. My Manton 10 bore says "8-10 dram" beneath the barrels, and caselength is 3.25".

Edited by rigbymauser (01/02/08 06:15 AM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Why is the 12 Bore a good Killer & 700 Nitro Not ? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #95653 - 01/02/08 10:22 AM

Quote:

In most litterature I have, the 10 bore rifle was THE predominant caliber in India for elephants before the entry of cordite express catridges ....8 & 4 bores was preferred in Africa.
However...several of the old catalogs mentions a "special 12bore 9 dram load" as the most powerfull 12bore ever made. I have looked in many many huntingbooks/catalogs regarding this 12 bore to determen the caselength, but canīt find any info. Stuffing 9 dram of black powder into a 12 bore case, a caselength of atleast 3.5" most be used. My Manton 10 bore says "8-10 dram" beneath the barrels, and caselength is 3.25".


; I had no difficulty loading 7 drams in a 2-3/4" plastic case along with a couple 1/2" wads. I am referring to round ball loads. I suspect brass in 2-3/4" would hold 8 drams with no problem. If my post about the most popular being 14 bore - you'll note I was talking - prior to the ctg. era.
; Jabilhunter - Above, I wasn't disputing your post about accuracy - only that bullets must be able to penetrate far enough - I suspect more is at hand here, than bullet failure as you noted.
: Many times lack of accuracy, or failure to hit the proper spot is blamed on the bullet. Have you ever heard of a Nosler Partition blowing up on a Moose hide - I have - one guy even said the Barnes "X" blew into pieces and he lost a moose shot broadside in the lungs - well, that may have been where he thought he aimed before closing his eyes. I think he hit the moose in the trees, or the ground and this type of shooting is far from rare. Many people are WAYYYYYY overgunned, but blame the bullet for their failure.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 286
Loc: Montana
Re: Why is the 12 Bore a good Killer & 700 Nitro Not ? [Re: DarylS]
      #95681 - 01/02/08 02:32 PM

Daryl, I completely agree with you that you MUST have a bullet that will penetrate, then must place it when penetration will do some good. Sometimes folks blame the bullet, other times the cartridge, and seldom themselves. 500gns' example of 4 shots missing the brain doesn't necessarily mean the 700 is a poor penetrator (although I've heard the stories too), just that that guy didn't place his shots. If that's the case it doesn't really matter what you're shooting. I wouldn't condemn the cartridge until I knew what solids were used, where in the head they hit, etc. DGJ had an article a few years back about a gent using an 8 bore Holland with round balls on elephants and penetration wasn't an issue despite what some armchair experts would have you believe.

I think hard round balls over 7-10drams should have plenty of penetration, though I haven't tried it myself. Perhaps the real reason the 12 worked back in the day was the men who used them. They got close because they had too, hunted for months on end, and got more experience and days afield each season than most modern 700 nitro elephant hunters get in a lifetime. In Alaska I always get a kick out of hunters who start rants with "I've been to AK 5 times and hunted 54 days there, and I.....fill in the blank."

I have had a 180gn partition blow up hitting the point of a moose's shoulder and have since switched to 220s in 30-06 and had no issues. Having said that, I plan to use my 10 5-dram gun with balls for moose this fall. I can't wait.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: Why is the 12 Bore a good Killer & 700 Nitro Not ? [Re: DarylS]
      #95698 - 01/02/08 09:20 PM

No worries, Daryl
That story about the moose is FUNNY! I wonder how he knew the bullet had blown to pieces if he didn't find it in the moose

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