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hoppdoc
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DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!!
      #95286 - 28/01/08 01:07 AM

I sit here inside with deer season slipping away and contemplate what I can do for gun fun during the cold gloomy days of February--

Yowsers!! Maybe some crude test of stopping power management for that 375,416 or 458 Bolt vs the big Double--

Others have suggested two targets, one maybe 35-40 yds and then another maybe 45 degrees left or right at 20-25 yards.
Shoot long within an 8inch pie plate then again at shorter yardage.

Yes I know the bolt gun will be slower but what time is practical to determine adequate rifle control/stopping power management?? Two seconds or less?? 2.5 seconds, 3 seconds??

One would think that such a crude test could be timed to determine ones best with any caliber(22 and up) and then measure the big boys!!
My gut tells me that among big bores the 375H&H is gonna win vs other bolts, but that the Double may tie or beat the 375H&H handily---A 450/400 Double may be the fastest big bore of the bunch!!

Any further suggestions or am I way out there in never neverland??

Edited by hoppdoc (28/01/08 01:11 AM)

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bonanza
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #95291 - 28/01/08 01:36 AM

Hop,

Stopping power starts with 5000 Ft/lbs of energy. So that means a .458 class and up. I've twice competed in timed shooting events (Vintager and Big Game Club America) with paper targets. This was nothing more than an exercise of your stamina to shoot round after round after round. I'm still amazed at the man who competed with a .577

I still like the milk jug practice method best. Four water filled milk jugs from scattered from 25 feet to 50 yards. Start with the closes and work back. Take your time, don't rush and make every shot count.

When you can get 4 out of 4 you are doing damn good.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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hoppdoc
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: bonanza]
      #95295 - 28/01/08 02:27 AM

Bonanza-
Dunno the specifics of either competition. Sounds very interesting!!

Still I would think any simple stopping power management testing for should have as the primary endpoint the power of multiple shots(minimum of 2) delivered over time. One shot testing desn't deal with the scenario of multi round rifles or repeat shots with a DG charge.One could multiply the energy/shot on target times the time. The lower the numerical result--the better.If 5000 ft pounds energy/shot is desired as a minimum energy rifle to shoot--fine. If I can only place 2 shots from a 450/400(4000 ftpnds energy) in less than 2 seconds, then maybe I shouldn't take the 470NE "stopper" to Africa---If I can do it with a 500NE(5700 ftpnds) then great!!

At least one could try to determine personal limits and improve those limits over time.

Empty chlorine buckets for swimming pools filled with bags of water looks like fun to play with!!

--------------------
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500Nitro
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #95296 - 28/01/08 02:39 AM


Bonanza

Stopping power is whatever you can deliver a bullet DIRECTLY to the CNS with in the shortest possible time !

Stopping power in terms of stoppping a charge even if you miss the CNS is another thing altogether -but the one most of us talk about and what we want.

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9.3x57
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: bonanza]
      #95297 - 28/01/08 03:01 AM

Hoppy:

Take your rifle and a pile of bullets and go have at it and report back!!

Use reactive targets for fun; bricks, cinderblocks, bowling pins, "Idaho Standardized Winter Reactive Targets" {chunks of firewood...}, milk jugs {they don't have to be gallon-size. Use the half-gallon ones to double your numbers and provide a tougher target if you like}. Shoot in bad weather, bad lighting and when you have a cold or against an injury. We do all that stuff {sorry, no DG guns, alas...} and I swear it teaches a TON more about personal limitations and capabilities than can be obtained when shooting normal range style. Reload from your normal cartridge carriers you use for hunting. Don't have anything made up special like the Cowboy Action shooters use {special double loop carriers, etc} unless that is exactly what you will use when hunting. Wear your hunting clothes, too.


Get out and do it!

And I hope it is raining when you do.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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hoppdoc
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #95299 - 28/01/08 03:39 AM

It would be fun to proportionally handicap "stoppers" above and below 5000 pnds energy--The math could be simple and shooting a bigger bore stopper could be scored to your advantage.

Some examples(briefly pardon me my flight of ideas to score big bore training as this interests me)i.e.--

A 5000 ft pound gun(standard weight) x 2 seconds=10,000 score

A 6000 pnd energy rifle(standard weight)-6000/5000=1.2x energy so handicap inversely to its advantage---5000/6000 x 5000 x 2= 8330!!


If you were shooting a 4000 pnd rifle(standard weight)below 5000 pounds energy you could even handicap adversely--

5000/4000 x 5000 x 2 seconds=12,500

The bigger the bore with accuracy and speed wins with the lowest score!!!!

Laugh your butt off at me but this could be fun!! All this is semi-BS but shows how fun it could be practicing big bores with little mental effort,shooting skill, and a stopwatch!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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BigFiveJack
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #95437 - 29/01/08 05:24 PM

Quote:


Bonanza

Stopping power is whatever you can deliver a bullet DIRECTLY to the CNS with in the shortest possible time !

Stopping power in terms of stoppping a charge even if you miss the CNS is another thing altogether -but the one most of us talk about and what we want.



Perfectly stated Nigel!

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
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Ripp
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #95460 - 30/01/08 01:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Bonanza

Stopping power is whatever you can deliver a bullet DIRECTLY to the CNS with in the shortest possible time !

Stopping power in terms of stoppping a charge even if you miss the CNS is another thing altogether -but the one most of us talk about and what we want.



Perfectly stated Nigel!




Another item to support the above--I recently read that along with caliber restrictions on dangerous game there is also muzzle energy requirements with most countries have a 4000 ft/lb requirement with the exception of Zim which lowered their's to 3500 to accomodate the 9.3 calibers..while I realize this does not mean they are true "stopping" cartridges...experience suggests AGAIN..bullet placement is paramount...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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JabaliHunter
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: Ripp]
      #95463 - 30/01/08 04:03 AM

Agree, however...
Ian Nyschens reckoned that in his experience, the .404 Jefferey was insufficient as a charge-stopper in the thick Jesse bush of Zimbabwe and switched to a .450 NE - and I thik we can safely call him a good shot!
In fact he switched to a Rigby .450 No 2 but lost it in the Zambezi !! Man I'd have been pissed!

Edited by JabaliHunter (30/01/08 04:11 AM)

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9.3x57
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95472 - 30/01/08 05:31 AM

Quote:

Agree, however...
Ian Nyschens reckoned that in his experience, the .404 Jefferey was insufficient as a charge-stopper in the thick Jesse bush of Zimbabwe and switched to a .450 NE - and I thik we can safely call him a good shot!
In fact he switched to a Rigby .450 No 2 but lost it in the Zambezi !! Man I'd have been pissed!



The great Arctic explorer Fridtjof Nansen lost his .577 NE over the rowboat into the Kara Sea. Talk about a bummer!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Ripp
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95500 - 30/01/08 12:33 PM

Quote:

Agree, however...
Ian Nyschens reckoned that in his experience, the .404 Jefferey was insufficient as a charge-stopper in the thick Jesse bush of Zimbabwe and switched to a .450 NE - and I thik we can safely call him a good shot!
In fact he switched to a Rigby .450 No 2 but lost it in the Zambezi !! Man I'd have been pissed!




I visited with Ivan Carter this week who showed my at least 6 different elephants charges where the brain shot was used from 5 to 15 yards--all were done with either a .450, 470, or 500 Nitro--based on what I saw--it would appear the 450 has plenty to do the job and is what Ivan currenlty is using in a Heym ..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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93mouse
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: bonanza]
      #95528 - 30/01/08 09:22 PM

Shangaan Hunters in Save have a nice setup similar like this:

http://www.heymusa.com/videos/HEYM_470_video_1.wmv

Main difference is that the line is a bit longer (40 m) and higher up so shooter stand under it - i.e. at the end you have to jump out of the way or the target hits you - target accelerate and you wait till it reaches 20 m, than begin to deliver - you should end up with 2 well aimed shots (from double or bolt) or compressed 3 from a bolt last one being at point blank - don't forget to jump out of the way (target is an old tyre with target fasten in the middle). If you want it more graphic you could drive a nail through the target and stuck a grapefruit on it (IMO corresponds to the brain size target). However IMO real charges are much closer - to realy test yourself you should stand beneath with your back against the target - wait till it reaches 10 m distance (you should look over your shoulder or have an apprentice to mark) - then you turn and give your best (only grapefruit hits should count).

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Ripp
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: 93mouse]
      #95534 - 30/01/08 10:34 PM

Thanks for that--I have seen that before--when the weather gets a bit nicer here I plan to attempt to set one of those up at a friends ranch--

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Bill_Cooley
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: Ripp]
      #95683 - 01/02/08 03:07 PM

This has ben posted elsware but you might take a look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59jQs2FkqIE

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hoppdoc
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #95692 - 01/02/08 08:36 PM

Very interesting!!

Methinks a good man with a Big Double would do well in that event vs those bolts.A loaded gun with 2 cartridges held in the forehand grip hand would make for reasonable initial speed for the first 4 shots(one reload) with some real firepower.A belt cartridge carrier would make for decent access to cartridges for additional shots.

No doubt a good bolt man shooting followup shots off the shoulder would be faster than those shooting on the video but give me a Double for something like this!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #95702 - 01/02/08 10:22 PM

Very cool - a setup like that would be great at the BSRC club at Bisley in England, but somehow I can't see the authorities allowing it. The government is too scared of anything to do with guns and hunting over here

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Marrakai
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95773 - 02/02/08 01:31 PM

Mate, I was pretty scared myself when that big fella slipped over and waved the muzzle of his COCKED, LOADED, and OFF-SAFE rifle straight at the videographer! There were several other transgressions as well, such as the bloke in the yellow vest walking straight in front of the muzzle of the last shooter without clearing his rifle or checking safe first!

Sure, it looked like a lot of fun, and good practice for big-bore hunting, but we take safety a little more seriously than that in Australia!

Don't mean to sound like a knocker, but whee-ew!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Marrakai
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: Marrakai]
      #95775 - 02/02/08 01:41 PM

OK, I guess I should be a bit more constructive.

A couple of very minor changes would make the whole show a lot safer:
1. Load the firearm behind the line if necessary, but leave the action open. Do not move to the line with the firearm bombed-up with action closed and off-safe. Close the action and commence fire when the start whistle sounds, action remains open up till the whistle.
2. Move only with action open. Reloading can take place on the run, but close the action only when stationary and about to engage the next target.
3. Clear firearms and show safe at the conclusion of each serial.

Other than that, it looks like a great course and would no-doubt be very educational for those who have never had to reload on the run or shoot big-bores fast!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Ripp
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #95778 - 02/02/08 02:01 PM

Quote:

Very interesting!!


No doubt a good bolt man shooting followup shots off the shoulder would be faster than those shooting on the video but give me a Double for something like this!!






Had a really interesting conversation with a gentleman that used to do culls in Zim on elephant..he told me, (now this ones going to get the buzz going), that if he had been using a double back then he would be dead..he said too many heading his way and there would have been no way to get reloaded in time..he said for what he was doing, the extra shots were needed.

Having said that, I don't know if this guy even shot a double but I do know his 2 buddies do..

I realize this is something that can be argued into the next century.. but I found it interesting none the less..

As to the video clip--that would be really cool and not that hard to set up..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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BigFiveJack
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: Ripp]
      #95791 - 02/02/08 05:07 PM

Marrakai - Tony,

I am with you here 100%! When the guy pointed the

rifle back at us I was NOT happy about it! The other

guy made a serious mistake walking in front of the

muzzle of a shooter!

I liked the course that the guys had set up and I would

love to have access to one, especially if it was on my

own land. Since I don't own nearly enough acreage for

such right now, I'll have to see about other options...

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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hoppdoc
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: Ripp]
      #95811 - 02/02/08 11:01 PM

Ripp--

Great topic!!

http://www.chuckhawks.com/double_rifles.htm

http://www.african-hunter.com/bolt_action_vs_double.htm

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns/double_magazine/



If we were dealing with a cull operation I think a bolt with more than two rounds might be better due to more rounds, flexibility, and range if scoped.For a speedy 2-4 shots in the usual DG hunting situation I think the Double gets the nod.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (02/02/08 11:02 PM)

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JabaliHunter
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: Ripp]
      #95881 - 04/02/08 02:18 AM

Ripp - I've heard the same when it comes to culling. Of course, the purpose of culling is to take down whole groups at a single event, which normally lasts less than a couple of minutes. In that situation, I guess that a magazine-full is really useful/essential, but very often a second fully loaded magazine rifle is on hand, so the magazine doesn't need reloading.

Its a different situation when sport hunting a single animal, when either the injured target or maybe an irate cow is the one that ususally does the charging. In that situation, a double is of more use. But again, it is really down to what you are used to and how fast you can reload for the 3rd shot that counts, or 4th if you hold 3 in the magazine. If you get onto the 5th shot, the shit has really hit the fan and its pretty academic whether a DR or magazine is better. IMHO, I've never wanted to get into a situation of having to relaod a magazine fast - that why stripper clips were invented, although I suppose you could have a spare box....

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9.3x57
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95893 - 04/02/08 03:09 AM

My grandfather was a machinist. One of his favorite sayings was that a true craftsman is not the fellow who can make a masterpiece with a fully equipped shop, but rather the fellow who can make a masterpiece using the most rudimentary of tools.

Certainly the choice of gun type can make a difference, but buying a different gun because it possesses certain theoretical advantages grants none of them to the shooter unless time and practice bring them to the surface.

A highly skilled man with a familiar bolt gun is in a far better position to face trouble than is a stumbling, bumbling fellow with a double, and vice versa.

But in the real world doesn't cost play a part?

Much is made by "tourist hunters" of the gun they will buy for that big hunt. But for the sake of discussion, let's say a fellow is willing to toss $30,000 at the firearms end of his hunt. I am guessing he is far better off in truth and practice to buy a reliable $1,000 .458 Winchester Mag bolt gun and spend $29,000 on ammo and range time before the hunt than he is spending $29,000 on the gun and $1,000 on ammo.

I truly wonder how many guys who buy expensive doubles put the time and money into the development of truly instinctive shooting and reloading skills. Then again, maybe on average the fellow who is willing to buy an expensive double is also the type who will put the effort into making it good?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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mickey
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #95913 - 04/02/08 07:56 AM

Quote:

My grandfather was a machinist. One of his favorite sayings was that a true craftsman is not the fellow who can make a masterpiece with a fully equipped shop, but rather the fellow who can make a masterpiece using the most rudimentary of tools.

Certainly the choice of gun type can make a difference, but buying a different gun because it possesses certain theoretical advantages grants none of them to the shooter unless time and practice bring them to the surface.

A highly skilled man with a familiar bolt gun is in a far better position to face trouble than is a stumbling, bumbling fellow with a double, and vice versa.

But in the real world doesn't cost play a part?

Much is made by "tourist hunters" of the gun they will buy for that big hunt. But for the sake of discussion, let's say a fellow is willing to toss $30,000 at the firearms end of his hunt. I am guessing he is far better off in truth and practice to buy a reliable $1,000 .458 Winchester Mag bolt gun and spend $29,000 on ammo and range time before the hunt than he is spending $29,000 on the gun and $1,000 on ammo.

I truly wonder how many guys who buy expensive doubles put the time and money into the development of truly instinctive shooting and reloading skills. Then again, maybe on average the fellow who is willing to buy an expensive double is also the type who will put the effort into making it good?



I think you will find out that it doesn't matter what the cost of the rifle is a person will practice the same amount as he would anyway.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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9.3x57
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Re: DG STOPPING POWER-Test your Limit!!! [Re: mickey]
      #95916 - 04/02/08 08:19 AM

Quote:

I think you will find out that it doesn't matter what the cost of the rifle is a person will practice the same amount as he would anyway.



Goood point. I suspect you are absolutely right. When I was working in the business, I sold quite a few relatively lowdollar {"affordable"} rifles in the .338-.375-.458 range for fellows making Alaskan, Western and African trips and though on the surface of it the "cheap" price of the guns would seem to encourage a lot of pre-hunt shooting, my discussions with most of the buyers indicated there was a lot of showing off but very little shooting off of those guns. I suppose the same is true of many who buy expensive guns also, particularly when the gun itself is highly specialized and will be used on maybe one hunt and one or two animals.

Hoppdoc's encouragement of "gaming" on the range is to be highly recommended and congratulated. Getting out of "target" mode and getting into "field mode" pays dividends. Add a physical fitness regimen to the DG rifle practice routine and you are that much better off.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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