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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Rigby 350 No2
      #7487 - 26/01/04 05:20 PM

On another forum there is a thread where it's said that the Rigby 350 No2 cartridge pushed a 225 grain bullet at the same velocity as the 350 Rigby magnum, ie 2625fps.

I am having a little bit of trouble accepting that the information is totally accurate and I'll tell you why.
The 350 No 2 case is the same size and capacity as the 400- 350, correct? (both rimmed cases)
The 400-350 shot a 310 gn bullet and the 350 No 2 shot a 225 gn bullet.

However, the 350 Rigby Magnum, a rimless cartridge, has a LARGER case and has a GREATER capacity than the rimmed 400-350 and 350 No 2, correct?

The 350 Rigby Magnum with its LARGER case capacity produced 17.5 tons pressure to achieve the 2625 fps, in a bolt action rifle.

18.5 tons seems to be about as high as any double rifle cartridge was loaded in those days.

My question is, how could the smaller capacity 350 No2 cartridge be expected to produce the same velocity as the larger capacity 350 magnum cartridge and still keep the pressures within double rifle limits.
I mean Rigby chose to use a larger case for the 350 magnum in a bolt action rifle.
Why would they use a smaller case with the resulting higher pressure in the double?

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Rigby 350 No2 [Re: 4seventy]
      #7616 - 28/01/04 04:17 PM

Yeah, that was my post on that thread. I'm with you, boss. I wonder the same thing.

Taylor mentioned that the .350 No. 2 was actually slightly hotter than the .350 rimless, although one wonders how he could have known that. A fellow who posts here, Vigillinus, had a best Rigby SLE .350 No. 2 and wrote an article about it for Double Gun Journal a while back. He had some of Rigby's old ammo for it (you know the stuff - loaded for the gunmakers by Kynoch) and said that it chronographed 2660+ if I remember correctly.

Yeah, if 2600+ is right (and it sounds like it is) you would think the pressure would have to be over 17.5. Strange, apparently, the British proof houses did not believe that .350 No. 2 pressures were any higher than .400/.350 pressures. As I'm sure you're aware, as a general rule, the British Proofmasters use the peak pressure of the heaviest bullet used in the normal load as the benchmark for developing the proof load which must produce 130% of the benchmark. Presumably, the assumption is that the heaviest bullet will produce the highest pressure. As stated, the .400/.350 and .350 No. 2 cases are, indeed, identical (factory Kynoch .350 No. 2 ammo often had ".400/.350" headstamps). In fact, they are the same cartridge - the .350 No. 2 is simply a light bullet, high velocity loading of the .400/.350 - and the British proof houses treated them as such. So, original British .350 No. 2 rifles were proofed for the normal powder charge used for the heaviest bullet that was used in the cartridge - 43 Cordite, 310 MAX - the .400/.350 load, NOT the .350 No. 2 load, and original .350 No. 2 rifles are so marked. Vig mentioned in his article that his rifle had the 43 Cordite, 310 MAX proof marks. Another DGJ contributor, in an article about a safari in Namibia, mentioned that his Gibbs 350 No. 2 was so marked, as was another .350 No. 2 advertised for sale by Lewis Drake in DGJ. I've handled a number of .350 No. 2s personally and have always paid special attention to them, because I want one and am curious. I've never seen one that was marked otherwise.
-----------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Rigby 350 No2 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #7636 - 28/01/04 11:56 PM

Yeah, interesting stuff.
Graeme Wright mentions in his (first) book that the 350 No 2 was just a light loading of the 400-350 and that it shot a 225 grainer at about 2400 fps for a pressure of about 18.5 tons.
If that pressure is correct it makes you wonder how you could ever approach 2625 fps in that case!

Then there is the mention of that other cartridge, the 350 Rigby FLANGED MAGNUM!

400, if you have the time, check out a post I did some time back on page 2 of this forum titled Mystery 350 Rigby.

I'd be keen to hear your opinion and comments.


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Rigby 350 No2 [Re: 4seventy]
      #7716 - 29/01/04 11:43 AM

Last night I couldn't find the article I referred to above. Turned out it was at the office. Autumn, 1999 DGJ. He said 13 rounds of the old factory ammo averaged 2663 fps over a PACT chronograph. I wonder where Wright got his pressure and velocity figure. I've always seen the .350 No. 2 listed at 2600 or 2625.

I pulled up the "Mystery Rigby" thread. Odd. My reference books cover quite a few obscure British rounds, but I've never seen mention of a .350 Flanged Magnum. Since the No. 2 seems to have actually been loaded to 350 Rimless Magnum velocity, the only reason for a flanged version of the rimless would be reduced pressure. I wonder where Wright got his information on it? Perhaps he found a reference to it somewhere that simply used the incorrect nomenclature for the No. 2?
-------------------------------------


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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mbogo375
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Reged: 09/02/04
Posts: 68
Loc: southeastern Georgia
Re: Rigby 350 No2 [Re: 4seventy]
      #9402 - 18/02/04 05:52 PM

I know that they have many errors, but COTW (10th edition) lists the 350 Rigby No2 as a 225 grain bullet at 2575 fps and the 350 Rigby Mag as 2625 fps. Still seems like the pressure would be greater in the No2 due to the smaller case capacity .

I am just getting into load development for my Rigby 350 Mag, and so far RL15 and IMR4350 seem promising. With the soft brass that I have I may be lucky to get to factory velocity or a little better (even though it is almost identical in capacity to the 358 Norma Mag). Yes, we all know the brand of brass, but it is the about the only game in town right now.


Jim

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JoeR
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Reged: 19/01/04
Posts: 41
Re: Rigby 350 No2 [Re: mbogo375]
      #9481 - 19/02/04 10:05 AM

MBOGO375, I'm up to 67 gr. IMR4350 in my Rigby with the 225 gr. Noslers with no pressure signs whatsoever. Next batch is 69 gr. Just got some Woodleigh 225 gr Weldcores to try as well. Shooting 3" low to the irons at 50 yds.

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mbogo375
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Reged: 09/02/04
Posts: 68
Loc: southeastern Georgia
Re: Rigby 350 No2 [Re: JoeR]
      #9488 - 19/02/04 11:25 AM

In reply to:

MBOGO375, I'm up to 67 gr. IMR4350 in my Rigby with the 225 gr. Noslers with no pressure signs whatsoever. Next batch is 69 gr. Just got some Woodleigh 225 gr Weldcores to try as well. Shooting 3" low to the irons at 50 yds.



Hi Joe,

I have been meaning to get back to you with my latest results. Last time out I tried 67.0 grains of IMR4350 with the 220 grain Speer FP (CCI250 primers and Bertram brass). I forget the actual chrono readings, but they were around 2525 fps. As you found with your rifle, my rifle also was shooting low (2.25" low at 40 yards, but it grouped less than an inch). I am guessing that it will take 69 or 70 grains to get to factory velocity.

I then tried 65.0 grains of IMR4350 with the Hornady 250 grain bullets. Since the 220's shot low and these would tend to shoot even lower I flipped up the 300 yard leaf before shooting, and it produced a perfectly centered group at 40 yards. Even with my wiggling it still grouped in about 5/8". I did not chronograph this load, but would think that it was in the 2400-2450 range.

The rifle definitely wants to shoot, but needs a bit more powder to get to factory velocity. Hopefully this will bring the groups up a bit without enlarging them. I still have to get some better 225 grain bullets to try, maybe the Nosler Partition. I think that 200 or 210 grain bullets would group close to point of aim, but that would be going in the wrong direction for larger game. I would love to find a load with 250's or heavier that shoots to the sights, but I think that will require a change of the front blade. Lots of options yet, but it promises to be a nice caliber.

Jim

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