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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
An argument for the 500/450 NE.
      #94862 - 21/01/08 12:33 PM

Often overlooked, the 500/450 by Holland and Holland may very well be the greatest double rifle cartridge ever designed.

If we look at it objectively, it's perfect. The case has a gentle taper, shallow shoulder, and a long neck. The pressure is very moderate and shoots the ubiquitous .458 bullet. Brass is abundant and cheap, even $0.00 if you use .470 freebies. The standard 480 load is easily tolerated by most and the 350 NFB load is pure fun.

Ok, how does it compare to the 450 and 450#2? Lower pressure than a 450 and more manageable than a 450#2. The 450#2 has a short neck, thick rim and a ridiculous volume. With today's powder the pressure in a 500/450 is plenty low, as to not need the volume of the 450?#2, but a tad more than a 450; hence the ideal 500/450.

It's life was cut short by the Indian ban. It's time to recognize the H&H 500/450 NE as a truly timeless cartridge.

B.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: bonanza]
      #94871 - 21/01/08 02:17 PM

These have always been my sentiments on the .500/.450 NE too.

Roosevelt's "big stick". Good stuff!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: Marrakai]
      #94873 - 21/01/08 02:39 PM



Having owned a 500/450 as well as 465's,
multiple 470's and 500's, I agree.

It is by far the best 450.

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #94901 - 22/01/08 03:00 AM

The only reason the 500/450 is not more popular is because it was an H&H properitary round, ie not released to the trade, and thus only avialable in expensive H&H doubles and in not many of them because of the ban.

It is a good cartridge.

I have and use quite a bit a 450 No2. The case is larger than necessary for modern powders no doubt as you MUST use some sort of filler with any powder that I know of. But it is very easy to load. I really like the necked case over the 450 straight case and the thick rim is a big bonus as well.

I have yet to ruin a case and some of mine have been fired at least 25 times. And this is Bertram Brass.

I also prefer the .458 Bore over the .470/475's.

However since Hornady will be loading the 450 3 1/4" Nitro Express, that is probably the best way to go today in a .458 bore double.

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
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Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: NE450No2]
      #94907 - 22/01/08 05:05 AM

Quote:

I really like the necked case over the 450 straight case


Curious - any particular reason? I prefer straight cases

Quote:

I also prefer the .458 Bore over the .470/475's. However since Hornady will be loading the 450 3 1/4" Nitro Express, that is probably the best way to go today in a .458 bore double.


Agreed, but if money were no object I'd have a .475 straight in a nice Westley droplock! Just to be different ....

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
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Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #94951 - 22/01/08 03:16 PM

Reloading the rifle is one good reason. The chamber opening of a bottleneck case is much larger than bullet diameter.

Reloading the 450 No2 is like dropping a pop can into a open 55 gal. drum.

Also even though I trim ,if necessary, after each loading, and seat bullets and crimp in two different steps, there seems to be less chance of buckling a case when crimping a bottle neck case.

And if, for no other reason there is a much, much, much larger, and cheaper selection of bullets for the .458 bore.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: NE450No2]
      #94961 - 22/01/08 06:47 PM

All good points and I don't disagree.

For me there is just something about the NE straight case - .450NE, .475NE, .500NE, .577Ne, .600 NE, etc... They just to it for me!

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
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Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95013 - 23/01/08 12:51 PM

J,

Don't think for 1/100 of second would I turn down a 450NE or a .475NE. The 450NE has some very distinct advantages: 1) a very slim "big bore" double rifle can be made, 2) the great .458 bullet. What we are getting down to here is picking nits.

Having owned a .470NE, 450#2 and 500/450NE, the easiest to live with is the 500/450NE.

My 500/450NE is an old Hollis with too much character. It is a 1907 BA hammer Jones under lever that won't win a beauty contest but is the real deal. The chambers are "oversized" so the rounds simply drop in with out fuss. An asset in a dangerous situation. The down side, head separations if you use the case to often. Hey, in 1907 they were never meant to be reloaded.

Thanks for the conversation fellows. I love discussing the subtleties of the classic NE rifles and cartridges.

B.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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500Nitro
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Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: bonanza]
      #95016 - 23/01/08 01:42 PM


Bonanza

I had Graeme Wright's Holland & Holland 500/450 NE
Underlever Hammer. Superb Gun.

It's written up in his book - shot unbelieveable
groups with it.

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: bonanza]
      #95042 - 23/01/08 10:30 PM

Quote:

J,

Don't think for 1/100 of second would I turn down a 450NE or a .475NE. The 450NE has some very distinct advantages: 1) a very slim "big bore" double rifle can be made, 2) the great .458 bullet. What we are getting down to here is picking nits.


Of course - thats half the fun
Heck - whatever the calibre, if its a nice gun, I'm in!

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EricCioe
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Reged: 16/04/07
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Loc: University of Chicago & Muskeg...
Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: Marrakai]
      #95162 - 25/01/08 05:04 PM

Quote:

These have always been my sentiments on the .500/.450 NE too.

Roosevelt's "big stick". Good stuff!



Teddy Roosevelt used a .500/.465 Holland, if I'm remembering African Game Trails right. I think his son Kermit used a .450 of some sort, but I'm almost positive that Ted used a .500/.465.

--------------------
Kant, Goethe, Hamsun, Mann, & Heidegger. Ted Roosevelt & Aldo Leopold.

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
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Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: EricCioe]
      #95165 - 25/01/08 06:22 PM

TR did indeed have a 500/450 HH.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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BigFiveJack
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Reged: 25/12/05
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Loc: Half hour North of Tampa Bay F...
Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: gatsby]
      #95167 - 25/01/08 06:37 PM

T R no doubt used the 500/450 and only said good things

about it. I too feel it's a great design! Let's shoot!!!

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #95254 - 27/01/08 06:16 AM

The cased double rifle given to TR for his yr long 1909 safari, was a H&H 500/450NE 3 1/4"! It was presented to him by a group of English business men, and sports the stirling silver Presidential seal in the stock, and was refurbished to NEW condition a few yrs ago,by H&H, and used, by a young man, Tyssen Butler, in the filming of "IN THE BLOOD"by his father George Butler, and then sold, by the then owner, at auction, by a California auction house, for somewhere near $1,000,000 USD.

I handled this rifle at a shot show a few yrs ago, before the film was made, and the rifle sold to an un-known owner, at least un-known to me! That rifle is one I'd gladly pay to own, if I had that kind of money!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: Marrakai]
      #95430 - 29/01/08 03:43 PM

I believe his H&H was a .465

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: ]
      #95433 - 29/01/08 03:57 PM


Sinner


500/450 Royal Extractor
405 Winchester Lever Action
30.06 Sporterised Springfield

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BigFiveJack
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Reged: 25/12/05
Posts: 256
Loc: Half hour North of Tampa Bay F...
Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #95436 - 29/01/08 05:20 PM

Nigel,

You get the prize for supplying the

president's accurate/complete list!

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #95440 - 29/01/08 05:49 PM


BigFiveJack

Thanks

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #95449 - 29/01/08 11:57 PM

Apparently the rifle is currently in the Frazier International History Museum in Louisville, Kentucky.

http://fraziermuseum.org/feature_detail.asp?id=13

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Bwanaclark
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Reged: 20/05/06
Posts: 24
Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #96715 - 14/02/08 10:21 AM

One small correction on Roosevelt's rifles: his sporterized springfield was in fact chambered for .30-03. This was verfied and documented by Winchester when the President sent it to them for cleaning (no kidding), because he wanted to order Kermit a Winchester model '95 in the same caliber.

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: An argument for the 500/450 NE. [Re: bonanza]
      #96833 - 16/02/08 07:32 AM

Funny how many old calibres are making huge come backs these days. Its to the glory, and good fortune of many excellent rifles.

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