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larcher
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Reged: 11/01/05
Posts: 2655
Loc: Saverne, Alsace, France
fair chase CHARTER
      #94544 - 18/01/08 12:04 AM

When seeing Benellisbe's sorry affair, I think it'd be nice to have at hand a charter making clear what a client is requiring when wanting to book a fair chase hunt. Then it's up to the hunter to stick to every points or erase what can make the hunt too tricky.
If everybody is bringing his contribution, we'll build a comprehensive no nonsense Charter that can be used as a contract with an outfitter.
Your opinion?
Your contribution?

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."

Edited by larcher (18/01/08 12:26 AM)


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larcher
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Reged: 11/01/05
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Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: larcher]
      #94554 - 18/01/08 01:36 AM

The rules of the East Africa Professional Hunters' Association established in 1920 by Blainey Percival could be the bottom line. Can somebody dig them out?

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."


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tophet1
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Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: larcher]
      #94602 - 18/01/08 11:20 AM

Sounds good. I was just about to post 'What Constitutes a Fair Hunt ?'. Ideas vary.
To me it is:

Tophets Fair and Ethical Hunt.

Driving to a locality,
Getting out of the vehicle,
Carrying everything you need for however long (A Day),
Go looking for game on foot.
No spotlighting except for Varmints.(Need to define Varmints).
Shooting on dusk ok.
Shooting after dark ok.(eg if a full moon with superior optics)
No Illuminated reticles or scopes.
No use of night vision devices.
No use of traps. (Need to define Trap eg mechanical device such as fence).
No use of Baits. (Need to define Bait eg dead animal or feed left in known location).
No shooting of animals bred in captivity. (Need to define Captivity eg hand fed, reared from birth, or kept in an enclosed space).

In the high dollar/short time frame, world of International hunting all the above may not be appropriate. In the paid hunt situation problems may arise in the following areas and would need to be considered and defined by both parties.

Non use of baits would limit hunting of nocturnal species. (eg the Cats)However returning to a kill made by a predator at a later date maybe appropiate.
It may be more appropriate to spot game and then immediately dismount from a vehicle for a short stalk.
The area used for hunting would need to be defined. What constitutes free range ? (A fenced area of 60,000 acres may be defined as enclosed just as a 2 acre area is enclosed, if bred animals are introduced to the area immediately prior or for the hunt.)
How do you know you are not shooting a bred animal ?

I'd also like to say that I do not always engage in fair hunts as defined above. I have never shot a bred animal and hope I never do. I have shot introduced animals (Pests) over baits such as feed blocks. That is not a fair hunt, just extermination.

Some point for thought.


Edited by tophet1 (18/01/08 04:08 PM)


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
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Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: tophet1]
      #94614 - 18/01/08 02:47 PM

Fair chase.

Get permission to hunt an area.
Go there , set you own camp
Do your own scouting
Do your own tracking
Do your own hunting, no guide
Do your own field cleaning
Do your own skinning
Do your own packing.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
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Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: DoubleD]
      #94620 - 18/01/08 04:30 PM

Quote:

Fair chase.

Get permission to hunt an area.
Go there , set you own camp
Do your own scouting
Do your own tracking
Do your own hunting, no guide
Do your own field cleaning
Do your own skinning
Do your own packing.




Easier said than done. Particularly if you need a guide by law or time frame.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: larcher]
      #95606 - 31/01/08 08:49 PM

JB

Some ideas for a "fair chase" charter. Not meaning that being outside this is illegal or can not be done, as fair chase is a rather more ideal or restricted attitude to a hunt. Also just ideas ...

  • Not use of artificial lighting or spotlights, or night vision devices.
  • No artificial or mechanical, recorded etc calls (eg use a manual call to call in a deer or lion or whatever - but no recorded sounds or sounds created by artificial means not requiring skill)
  • No shooting from a vehicle or near a vehicle, say 200 plus metres, or from a motor powered boat.
  • No aerial spotting of fame
  • No high fences. Fencing should permit the free movement of game
  • No shooting over waterholes
  • No use of traps
  • All animals should be born and bred in free chase conditions.
  • Shoot your own animal (of course!)
  • While not strictly on topic, shoot only mature specimens
  • Baiting - baiting only for certain animals and personal checking of baits ie not have an army checking baits for you
  • Shooting only at a range where the animal has a chance to detect the hunter ie no 400 - 1,000 metre "sniping"


Just some ideas for a "true" fair chase hunt.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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larcher
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Reged: 11/01/05
Posts: 2655
Loc: Saverne, Alsace, France
Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: NitroX]
      #95633 - 01/02/08 04:10 AM

Not having a coveted trophies shadowed days in advance by locals as it's done at a regular basis in Asia.
World class Marco Polo or Markhor are often followed by a couple of locals almost night and days. This way, they can tell the PH where the game is precisely, using Walkie Talkie.

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."


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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: larcher]
      #95694 - 01/02/08 08:51 PM

Is that any different from pre-season scouting, where people head into the mountains a few days before season opens to find the sheep and then keep tabs on them till opening morning?
I suppose that at at least the hunter is finding the game for himself rather than getting someone else to do it......


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
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Loc: South Africa
Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95733 - 02/02/08 03:40 AM

Hunting ethics are always a thorny issue and in many ways, I think they're best left to the individual hunter to decide for himself what and what not he should or shouldn't do...... but we also have to factor in what's sensible and practical.

Looking at this thread makes me think that some of the ideas, whilst very laudable are somewhat impractical to say the least and simply wouldn't work in the real world of African hunting. - I won't go through all of them, but will pick a few at random....... As I hope you'll see, there are very few hard and fast rules.

Carrying everything you need for however long (A Day) - That's fine until you get an old, unfit or infirm client. - Then the rules simply have to change.

Go looking for game on foot. Most African hunting areas are very large indeed and success rates would drop dramatically if you did this instead of driving and looking for game and spoor and getting out to hunt from there. As clients pay soooo much money for their safari, they quite rightly expect a fairly high success rate. - Few people are prepard to spend umpteen thousand dollars and however long, to shoot something like 2 or 3 animals in a week or so.

Shooting on dusk ok. - Every client and every animal and circumstance are different. Whilst you might let someone who has proved himself a great shot, take an impala at dusk, the same might not apply to a client who can't shoot for shit and wanted to shoot one of the Big Five at dusk.

No use of Baits - Despite what some people claim, the success rate for cats would drop to considerably less than 10%...... and frankly, cat hunts would become unsellable. - If the hunting industry can't sell hunts, they go out of business.

returning to a kill made by a predator at a later date. - The chances of doing that, and finding kills in places that are suitable for setting up a shot, on a regular enough basis are extremely remote...... Almost as rare as rocking horse shit.

Setting up your own camp & doing your own skinnning etc. - Great idea, but not very likely with most clients. - Also how far do you take it? - I've been in this business for donkey's years, and have never, ever, seen a client go into a river to recover their own (probably) dead crocodile or hippo.

No shooting from a vehicle or near a vehicle, say 200 plus metres, or from a motor powered boat. - I'd agree with this with most clients for most species..... but not all. For example, how would you shoot a croc or a sitatunga if you were not allowed to shoot within 200 metres of water. - Actually, this, or a similar rule is usually in the game laws of most countries for most species. - Going off topic for a second, Tanzania has a list of animals you can shoot close to water, but someone forgot to put croc on it..... so by the letter of the law, every croc shot in Tanzania is illegally shot.

No high fences. - I've gotta say, I absolutely hate game fences with a vengance, but enforcing this rule would put pretty much every South African outfitter and many from other countries out of business. To say nothing about either ending up with a situation where the PG & DG is wandering round everywhere, including towns or you'd have no game anywhere in the country except the non hunting areas. - Whether we like it or not, and I don't really like it, high game fences are a fact of life and they make African hunting affordable for many who couldn't afford to hunt unfenced areas.

baiting only for certain animals and personal checking of baits ie not have an army checking baits for you. - I think that checking the baits yourself is all part of the fun of the hunt, but a fact of life is that some people don't agree with me and some simply don't have the time to do it. It's not uncommon for some clients who are money rich and time poor to pay for a second vehicle to do all the work to get the cat on bait, while they hunt other species and that client just goes into the blind & shoots the cat. If that's what they want to do with their money, how can anyone tell him otherwise?

The point of this post is to show that in Africa, hard and fast rules for every situation are extremely rare, and one should never say never, and never say always. - Better to try to stick to the game laws of whatever country your hunting in and decide your own code of ethics and not force them on everyone else. - What's right for you, might not be right for everyone.

I have my own little ethical quirks but try not to force them on everyone else. For example, I choose not to hunt cow Elephants, I'm always happy to explain why I consider it unethical, and indeed, it's cost me a lot of money over the years, but I try not to criticise others for doing it if they want to.

Hope that contribution is of help and sincerely hope no-one is offended by my point of view.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: shakari]
      #95745 - 02/02/08 05:24 AM

Quote:

As clients pay soooo much money for their safari, they quite rightly expect a fairly high success rate.



I fear this is at the root of many unethical practices

Quote:

Few people are prepard to spend umpteen thousand dollars and however long, to shoot something like 2 or 3 animals in a week or so.



It is interesting though that people will spend large amounts of time and money pursuing single animals when they are valued highly enough. For example, sheep, goats, polar bear, grizzly bear, to name just a few.

I don't know the answer, but perhaps the problem is that the abundance of species and the relative ease of hunting numerous species on a single trip is itself a factor in perpetuating some high expectations of success, and that this in itself can lead to the devaluing of wildlife and unethical practices among some so-called hunters?

Maybe it should be a bit harder to be successful on more than 2 or 3 species on a single safari, and maybe that would require restricting the use of vehicles, for example?

Just a thought


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
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Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95747 - 02/02/08 05:46 AM

At the risk of getting philolophical.......I think one of the problems is that in today's society, more and more people are becoming money rich and time poor and that situation along with other pressures tends to make an increasing number of people seek and expect instant gratification. Add on the fact that every hunter, hunts for his own reasons. Some want the pure challenge and thrill of the hunt, some unfortunately, just want to kill and some only want to get their name in the record book and a very few will even take this so far as not to care about ethics etc....... Like I said, it's very difficult to establish a set standard of ethics and/or for that matter, a code of behaviour to suit everyone.

As to restricted use of vehicles...... The areas I hunt in Selous for example, average close to 900 square kilometres each....... without being able to use a vehicle, you'd only ever manage to cover a fraction of the area. - As it is, even with the vehicles to take us into the areas we need to go, we walk somewhere between 6 and 8 hours on an average day.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: shakari]
      #95748 - 02/02/08 05:58 AM

Let me add to my previous comments, that probably one of the best ways to make sure you get what you want from your hunt, is for the individual hunter to work out his own code of ethics and hunting behaviour, and put it all in writing to his PH beforehand. - AND ask the PH to reply with his comments.

That way, the PH knows what kind of a hunt he needs to provide to the hunting client and the hunting client can have his hunt exactly the way he wants it.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: shakari]
      #95749 - 02/02/08 06:00 AM

Yes I certainly understand that and I don't know anyonyone that would argue that walking 6-8 hours a day in the Selous would not be either fair chase or ethical. As you say, it is virtually impossible to set rules or guidelines that are applicable to every situation.

In restricting the use of vehicles, I think I had in mind those kind of safaris that you can get in some countries where for instance, you drive along and shoot an impala in the morning; drive a bit more and shoot a kudu in the afternoon; get up the next day, drive along and shoot whatever else.... and so on for 7 days.

This is quite different to using vehicles to get into an area and finding a set of tracks and then following on foot with no guarantee of finding a suitable buffalo or elephant at the end of a long, hot, exhausting day.

JMHO but I accept that not everyone is up for, or capable of that


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JabaliHunter
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Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: shakari]
      #95750 - 02/02/08 06:01 AM

you beat me to the post with that last one !

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shakari
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Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95753 - 02/02/08 06:52 AM

Yup, shooting from the vehicle is a real pain in the ass, and I really dislike it, but even that occasionally has to happen in the real world. Get a client who either can't walk for some reason or for example, get a shot opportunity on the last hour of the last day on an animal that simply can't be seen without the elevation of the vehicle and all you can do is let the client make up his own mind. - Thankfully, I usually seem to attract clients who like to do it the same way I do...... which is on foot.

I had a client a few years ago who impressed the hell out of me. He was 72 years old, diabetic, had dodgy knees and a heart condition and he still hunted the way I like to do it. We didn't have any 'death marches' but did have some fairly long tabs...... he took 2 Buff, a good Lion, a decent hippo, a #4 in Rowland Ward EA Eland and a whole pile of other PG..... and he didn't complain once. He's ill now and probably won't hunt Africa again, but I speak to him as often as I can, and now consider him a good friend.

BTW, Where in Surrey?

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: shakari]
      #95780 - 02/02/08 02:05 PM

Quote:

Yup, shooting from the vehicle is a real pain in the ass, and I really dislike it, but even that occasionally has to happen in the real world. Get a client who either can't walk for some reason or for example, get a shot opportunity on the last hour of the last day on an animal that simply can't be seen without the elevation of the vehicle and all you can do is let the client make up his own mind. - Thankfully, I usually seem to attract clients who like to do it the same way I do...... which is on foot.




Steve

You are confusing the discussion with what happens vs what is fair chase. Just because a guy is fat or disabled and can't walk a hundred metres makes no difference to what is "fair chase". Which I suppose is looking at it from the animals perspective and its chances of making an escape.

And just because a lot of operators in some countries may not be able to make a living without high fences also does not affect what is "fair chase". A high fence hunt on a really large property may be very sporting but there is still a fence.

Now I am not saying some of the "non fair chase" things should not be done, I have certainly shot animals not on some high definition of fair chase. For example if a disabled guy in a wheelchair can only shoot from the back of a vehicle perhaps using an automated shooting rest and his mouth on a joystick. Then good on him for having a go. Bloody huge effort actually. But it is still NOT fair chase.

As for over-weight guys that give up walking after a hundred metres, well that is not impressive .... I'm fat enough and many times have been told most clients would have given up by a certain point. If these guys can only get "trophies" from the backs of vehicles well maybe they should be walking instead.

(BTW I'm not being holy, I have shot a few animals off the back of a Landcruiser, but also walked 25 kms in high temperatures too.)

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: NitroX]
      #95781 - 02/02/08 03:42 PM

Hi John,

You're right of course, but I wasn't really referring to guys who are dramatically overweight. Tailoring the hunt for someone with a weight problem is part of the job. For example, you'd try to hunt the areas with less challenging terrain rather than head for the mountains etc. - Just because someone is overweight, doesn't necessarily mean they can't walk. - It's amazing what the lure of a Buffalo or a sneaky PH asking the client to 'just give me one more hour and you'll get your Buffalo etc' can do!

I was really referring to guys with other health problems such as serious heart conditions or restricted to a wheelchair etc. - From my point of view, if the client does his best then that's good enough for me.

Regarding only hunting to the rules of fair chase, I again agree with you completely.- To me, hunting any other way simply ain't hunting, it's shoooting and it's the reason I haven't hunted DG in RSA for some years. - although, I guess that's taking the situation to it's extreme conclusion and maybe I'm not entirely right in that choice......... deciding exactly where one should draw that fine line isn't always easy. That said, it is easy to decide about canned shooting at the other end of the spectrum, where animals, mosr commonly Lions, are bred and then released (often still drugged) for the client to come in and shoot. As far as I'm concerned that should be entirely illegal.

Some people take the attitude of 'well, if you want to do that, go ahead, but it's not for me'..... I personally believe that if we take that attitude, not only is it completely unethical, but it'll also eventually mean the end of our sport and the end of the hunting industry in SA.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: shakari]
      #95782 - 02/02/08 04:09 PM

Steve

Of all the places I have hunted in Africa, two stand out as the least enjoyable and both were high fenced places.

One was the most difficult hunting I've had. It was a too small (3500 ha) fenced place. Lots of lots of thorn bush. The hunt was at the end of the season. The game was extremely skittish from being over-hunted. And perhaps the place was "re-stocked" each year so the number of trophy animals left at the end of the season was limited. We ended up hunting the same animal time and time again. Bumped into the same fences time and time again. Difficult hunting but on balance boring in comparison to other areas hunted.

The other was also fenced, three times the size, but due to a drought they were feeding the animals off the back of landcruisers. Shot one zebra there and then found out about the feeding. Went back to the other area we had been hunting. Again quite boring, but this time the animals were very easy to hunt.

From these experiences now I am quite skittish about high fenced hunting. The properties really have to be good sized and game raised on the property not bought at auction. One thing that turns me off places with high trophy prices is I think this often reflects the price at auction the animals cost. Not my cup of tea at all.

Hunted a high fenced place with Karl Stumpfe in Namibia two years ago and that was quite different. Really quite similar to a fair chase/open range hunt. Also in the open Kalahari.

How much better to hunt large concessions in the true wild, where there are no artificial barriers to escape.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: fair chase CHARTER [Re: NitroX]
      #95783 - 02/02/08 04:19 PM

Yup, once you've hunted a true wilderness area, there's absolutely no going back to being entirely happy with game fenced areas...... The same can be said about once you've hunted an unpopulated area such as the Selous. I find it's spoiled me even for areas such as the Zambezi Valley and Masailand. Nothing, but nothing beats being able to hunt day after day and not see another human being other than your own hunting and camp staff etc. - Maybe I'm getting to be a miserable old bugger, but nowadays, I even tut to myself if we bump into another vehicle as we travel the boundary roads.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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