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Anonymous
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J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite
      #94497 - 17/01/08 12:34 PM

John Rigby & Co. - London. 450 N.E. Rising Bite Best Sidelock Ejector Double Rifle. Griffin & Howe has it out for $45,000.00

www.griffinhowe.com



Description: (Griffin & Howe NY)
Barrel length: 26
Sights: Front post
Weight: 11 lbs, 14 oz
Overall condition: Excellent
Stock condition: Excellent
Metal condition: Excellent
Stock: Refinished
Metal: refinished
Type of Case: leather luggage case Pad thickness: 1 "
Manufactured in: England
Lop: 14 7/8 "
Comments : Double rifle, auto ejectors, superb condition.


*G&H's descriptions leave a tad bit to be desired for certain, anyone interested in this rifle should send it to D. Yale or K. Eversull to check out prior to. I can see several condition issues just by the pictures alone, to call this specimen "superb condition" is a bit of a reach. Still, I like it very much, no doubt there's history all over this one. Just needs some TLC..

Edited by DRarchive (30/07/08 11:34 AM)

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bwanakim
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Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 69
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: ]
      #94610 - 18/01/08 02:20 PM

Sinner:

I looked at this rifle at the Dallas Safari Club show this past weekend. I really thought about buying it, but decided against it, primarily as it would have involved tying up a lot of money in something I would use very little. It was a beautiful piece, however, as you note. According to G& H it is the same rifle as pictured in the Hoyem book on British cartridges. I compared the photo there with the rifle itself and noted some indentations at the rear of the lockplates and some screws which have beeb semi-buggered, but that's all I could really see. I'm curious as to the "condition issues" you see from the photos. I would really appreciate your further comments for my own edification--and education. No one can afford mistakes at this level!

Thanks!

--------------------
bwanakim

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Anonymous
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: bwanakim]
      #94616 - 18/01/08 03:16 PM

Quote:

Sinner:

I looked at this rifle at the Dallas Safari Club show this past weekend. I really thought about buying it, but decided against it, primarily as it would have involved tying up a lot of money in something I would use very little. It was a beautiful piece, however, as you note. According to G& H it is the same rifle as pictured in the Hoyem book on British cartridges. I compared the photo there with the rifle itself and noted some indentations at the rear of the lockplates and some screws which have beeb semi-buggered, but that's all I could really see. I'm curious as to the "condition issues" you see from the photos. I would really appreciate your further comments for my own edification--and education. No one can afford mistakes at this level!

Thanks!



Hi Kim,

It's been a long time since we spoke last, I hope your well.

Yes if they say it's the one pictured in the book, I believe them, Paul and Joe are good folks.

Regarding the rifle. If you look closely at the photos, you can see a fracture crack behind the right lock plate, and a sizable piece missing from the other side. Indicating the stock may be in poor shape in the interior of the carriage. It does look like the original wood, and they often came without a cheekpiece. There is no colors left anywhere on the metal that is original to my eye. The barrels reveal surface pitting at the breach that appears fairly deep in spots. I have no idea about the bores, or if this is even the original chambering, I'm assuming there okay. The screws need to be changed out, engraved, and re-indexed.

Certainly it is still a treasure worth seeking, I would just have it completely looked over by a knowledgeable smith and shot for accuracy.


Cheers.

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470evans
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Reged: 30/03/05
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: ]
      #94763 - 20/01/08 08:59 AM

I looked this gun over as well, it is a nice gun, bores are very good. What was interesting is it was never proved for cordite, the barrels are engraved listing a cordite charge and the 480gr bullet. The proof marks simply state 450 ex.

It's a 1901 gun and is the second Rigby 450 I've seen from that year that was marked as a cordite gun on the barrels but not proved for it. The first was a hammer gun with the exact same cordite engraving on the barrels. Guns from that year would have carried cordite proofs if proven with a cordite load. The "NP" nitro mark didn't come out until 1904 but the flats would have been marked:

75grs cordite, 480 grs bullet MAXm, if proven with cordite

My 1902 Evans 400/360 and the 400/350 1901 Rising Bite that Westley sold at DSC are so marked.

At that weight it was probably built as a nitro gun but I'll let someone else risk it.

If it had been proved for Cordite that gun would never have seen Dallas, it would have been in my safe three weeks ago

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bwanakim
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Reged: 04/12/06
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Loc: San Antonio, Texas
Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: 470evans]
      #94769 - 20/01/08 11:04 AM

I haven't been able to think about anything but that rifle since last Sunday! I hope somebody buys it and makes it easy for me. I have learned a lot from both Sinner and 470 evans. I've been fooling around with double rifles for about 18 years now, but always boxlocks in no way near this price level or quality. The whole business is frightening! I saw the markings on the barrel as far as the load, and also saw that the flats were marked "450 EX". I also knew that the NP marks didn't come out until 1904, so I just assumed there would be no indications as to nitro, period.
Reading between the lines, so to speak, is 470 evans is saying it could be a BP gun that was re-engraved to show the nitro load, or it could have been a nitro for black gun? If so, this would surely cut the value at least by half, if not more. If there is possible damage to the carriage, as noted by Sinner, can a good gunsmith restabilize the action so that it doesn't shift? I'm guessing the damage is caused by the lockplates moving during recoil.
There is a "funny" Rigby here in San Antonio at Bass Pro Shop that purports to be a 7x57R. It is a rising bite sidelock in very nice condition, but something just wasn't right. I e-mailed Paul Roberts who informed me they never made a rifle in such caliber. I returned to the store and asked to examine the rifle. The barrels are replacement barrels made in Ferlach. They didn't know this--they say--and are asking--ready? $49,999! I understand the original records are in the wrong hands so what are we left to do?

Thanks guys for the valuable information!

--------------------
bwanakim

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: 470evans]
      #94775 - 20/01/08 11:56 AM

470,

Did you happen to notice the proofs it did have? If so I could elaborate more, such as if it had a crown over a CP would indicate a BPE. If it was nitro prooved it would have been struck on the flats as “nitro prooved” for that period of gun. The engraving of the load on the outer barrels is common, as to distinguish regulation by makers of that period.


Kim,

A good gunsmith can possibly repair the stock if the damage is not to severe. However, it’s a bad spot to have weakness in the stock, as it often protrudes through the wrist. In regards to the other rifle you mentioned. A friend called me on that 7x65r Rigby at BPS a while back, and spoke of the same issue in regards to the barrels. There prices and descriptions are ridiculous, as they have been on every gun they have “tried” to sell since opening those rooms many years ago. It’s a well known fact that there fine gunroom operations, as well as purchase operations, are run by people who don’t know guns at all. I don't deal with them anymore.

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470evans
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Posts: 278
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: ]
      #94844 - 21/01/08 10:53 AM

Sorry I can't recall what the other marks were, I should have written them down.

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500Nitro
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: 470evans]
      #94846 - 21/01/08 11:06 AM


Woodwork can be replaced, metal work is harder.

Regardless of the few faults identified, if the action
and barrels are in good nick it would be worth buying
if you so desired.

I love my Sidelock Rigby and am really glad I bought
it when the opportunity arose.


Does anybody have the Serial Number so we can
date the gun exactly ?

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470evans
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: 500Nitro]
      #94848 - 21/01/08 11:11 AM

I have the serial #, date of manufacture and who it was built for at work. Griffin sent it to me when I was considering buying the gun. I'll bring it home and post it tomorrow.

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500Nitro
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: 470evans]
      #94850 - 21/01/08 11:18 AM



470

So was it an original Nitro 450 gun ?

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470evans
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: 500Nitro]
      #94851 - 21/01/08 11:27 AM

Can't tell you from what I know, I only know it was never proved with Cordite. Flats are only marked 450 ex.

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bonanza
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Loc: South Carolina
Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: 470evans]
      #94856 - 21/01/08 11:59 AM

Wow!

Thanks again Sinner.

Absolutely mouth watering rifle. Can't go wrong with a .450 3 1/4".

I agree that once one gets into the $40+ range that a rifle better check out perfect - including a trip to the rifle range.

The most expensive DR I own is in the $20K range and that is the most I'd want to get into a rifle. Why? liquidity. I still live on my pay-check and could move it if required.

B.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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bwanakim
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Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 69
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: bonanza]
      #94866 - 21/01/08 12:45 PM

I'm anxiously awaiting 470 evans' information. I just sold a couple of rifles and I'm dangerous(to myself, of course). Although perhaps not pertinent to this post, one rifle sold was a .22 Hi Power Westley Richards boxlock ejector which was the subject of Sinner's post about a year or so ago. Since some of the commentary was about the scope mounts, I had J.J. Perodeau take them off and restore the rib and rear sight. George Caswell thought I'd lose 4-5 thousand dollars on selling it, so I took it back. In November, I talked to Kevin Kilday who thought he could sell it, and net me a profit! I'll be damned if Jack Puglisi(?)didn't breeze through the Dallas Safari Club and buy FIVE double rifles from Kevin, including mine! I got my money and then some! Needless to say, I'm happy with Kevin and WR. Jack P. then took all five of the rifles to another table and marked them up 25% asking $49,500 for a plain boxlock Rigby .470 Kevin had $34,500 on. Go figure! Can anybody enlighten me as to what's going on here? With that type of price on the boxlock, I reasoned the .450 Rigby was quite a deal at $42,500 (Paul said they'd sell it for that) IF everything checked out. One of the guns bought by Puglisi was the 400/350 Rigby mentioned by 470 evans. I forget what he marked it up to, but I want to say $45,000!It was ok, but a heavy refinish and no ejectors, case, or anything special.

Thanks for all the great information!

--------------------
bwanakim

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bonanza
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: bwanakim]
      #94868 - 21/01/08 12:58 PM

Supply and Demand my friend. With new rifles flying off the shelf at $200k, a $20k pre-war British full nitro becomes a steal, even with a few blemishes. I think the real issue here becomes gunsmiths, rather the lack of. Try getting your prized rifle in for a job, better know someone. If I were 20 again I'd become a gunsmith and a aircraft mechanic. No shortage of work.

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Anonymous
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: bwanakim]
      #94869 - 21/01/08 01:25 PM

Kim,

The double rifle market is hot this time of year, my phone has been ringing off the hook the last 4 weeks.



B,

Your a scholar and a gentlemen!



Cheers guys.

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470evans
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Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: ]
      #95017 - 23/01/08 02:03 PM

Here's what Griffin and Howe sent me on the Rigby:

Serial # 16784

Delivered to C. Craig in January 1901

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500Nitro
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Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: 470evans]
      #95018 - 23/01/08 02:07 PM


So it was almost certainly made as a Nitro gun.


Mine is 17XXX, I think 1904, Originally 350 Rigby.

Edited by 500Nitro (23/01/08 02:08 PM)

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Nakihunter
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: 500Nitro]
      #95029 - 23/01/08 05:35 PM

I have been following this with very keen interest as part of my education towards acquiring my first DR. Is there a typo above - if the 1904 rifle was a Nitro, then the 1901 could have been Nitro for Black???? Awesome rifle. Thanks for the information guys.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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500Nitro
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: Nakihunter]
      #95032 - 23/01/08 06:09 PM


Naki

Why would Rigby, the Inventor ??? of the 450 NE
make a Sidelock DR in 1901 that was BP or N4B ?

I just find it hard that such a progressive company
that turned the gun industry upside down with the cartridge
would go backwards.

I may be wrong but we really need to see the Proofs.

Anyone else's thoughts ?

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Marrakai
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: 500Nitro]
      #95036 - 23/01/08 06:59 PM

No-one, ever, is going to make a 12-pound .450 BP Express!!

At least, they wouldn't put their name on it, even if the customer asked for such a heavyweight!
Hell, it's bloody heavy even for a full nitro gun!

No way that was built as a BP gun, regardless of proof-marks.
Those are my thoughts!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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JabaliHunter
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: Marrakai]
      #95037 - 23/01/08 10:14 PM

Clearly it is down to the proofs, but I agree with 500Nitro - I doubt whether Rigby built any .450 BPEs built by Rigby after 1898... unless they had some old barrels lying around

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500Nitro
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95041 - 23/01/08 10:26 PM



I think Marrakai's idea is on the money - better than mine
as the gun makers had worked out by 1900 you don't need
big heavy guns for the NE Cartridges - just look at the
Holland Royals !

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Anonymous
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: Marrakai]
      #95054 - 24/01/08 03:16 AM

Rigby often upgraded older versions of there inventory in to nitro guns. Switching barrels and actions around like musical chairs at the turn of the century. This may have easily been such a gun. In any event, even if it was the perfect 450NE, which it's not, it's $10,000.00 to high.

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dearmer
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: ]
      #95871 - 04/02/08 01:17 AM

Just came upon this post. I just received the twin to this rifle from England and it has the same proof issues. Marked as Nitro on top of barrels but no nitro proofs on the flats. I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me a little but I have to agree that Rigby would never have made a 450 black or NFB rifle that heavy. Mine is 11 Lbs 6 Oz. Doing some checking on this in England as we speak but won't know anything for sure until Monday. The Ledgers only state 450 Bore no additional info on caliber.

Sinner, I respect your opinion and know you do a lot of trading in the market but I spent a lot of time looking for my Rigby with a lot of knowledgeable people helping me and I think the chances of finding a tight sidelock Rigby with good bores for under $40,000 is a real long shot. Too many people overpaying just because they can and more people getting interested in them is really driving prices up.

My 2 cents: Have the bores and other important parts checked out by a reputable smith, offer 40 and walk out with a smile on your face because it won't be long before it is worth a lot more.

Josh

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: J. Rigby 450NE Rising Bite [Re: dearmer]
      #95877 - 04/02/08 02:03 AM

dearmer,

Would you take the time and effort to photograph your rifle in detail and post the photos under a new thread on the DR Photo & Archive Forum?

We would all like to see it, particularly the markings on the rifle.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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