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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
double regulation and real hunting
      #93388 - 04/01/08 11:45 AM

Hi,
I have a question for those with experience with double rifles:
Doubles are regulated to shot both barrels in less than 10 seconds. So, what happens if you shot right barrel and then, before reloading you have to shot left barrel, say 30 seconds later?
You can imagine the picture you like, buffalo, lion, deer, tec. You hit hard but the prey hide behind a tree, you walk looking for it and then when you are just to reload right barrel lion charge, deer run, etc.
Do you try cold left barrel group?
Food for your thoughts
Thanks
Martin


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: beleg2]
      #93390 - 04/01/08 12:05 PM


Good question but Where did you here that
"Doubles are regulated to shot both barrels
in less than 10 seconds." ????

Firstly, it doesn't matter how long it takes between shooting
one barrel and the next.

Secondly, IF I haven't fired the 2nd barrel and I do try to shoot both, I would reload BEFORE going for the walk.


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: 500Nitro]
      #93411 - 04/01/08 01:49 PM

I believe he heard that from a discussion on the origenal physical regulation of the rifle by the regulator at the makers factory! It matters when you are physically adjusting the barrel's convergance, while building the rifle, but not critical for hunting purposes!

The fact is when the regulator is adjusting the barrel convergance, he will start with the barrels at room temprature, and fire the right barrel first (on right hand rifle), and follow up within 10 seconds with the second shot from the other barrel. This is the only way to get the barrels adjusted as closely as he can to perfect. He will then let the rifle cool, and fire four shots in a very short time as they would be under close quarters hunting , or STOPPING conditions in the field. The rifle is then carded, and finished along with the final fileing of the sights.

That exercize is to assure he has done all he can to make the rifle work as well as is possible.

In the field your sceenario above, is asking a ligitimate question, that is amoung a group of phrases that make double rifles so confusing to many who don't really understand them. That sceen would play out as well as you can shoot, even after 30 seconds od five minutes! You are not shooting a target rifle in this sittuation, but a stopping rifle, and the proper drill is exactly as your sceenario indicates. You fire the right barrel, and your target takes a step, behind cover. You reload the fired barrel, and either wait,or he comes shortly, and you fire the other barrel, then re-load. If he has stepped out of sight, but you think he is still there close by, and on his feet, or you reload, and move very slowly till you can see him, then wait. Which ever you do, you be ready to fire that right barrel again, and the left one in rappid succession, and in that case you will likely not even see your sights, at all, but shoot instinctivly, and just off the muzzles of your rifle. The proper responce,will be what ever you do, Don't worry about how many seconds have passed, because it will not matter, if you don't do it right!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #93423 - 04/01/08 02:52 PM

The difference won't be significant when you don't have a standing or sitting bench to guage the rifle's accuracy. In the field, the difference will be well within what a even a good shooter can hold freehand, and probably see on game, and so then the test is the shooter's accuracy and not the rifle's.

With my rifle, shooting off a bench, I cannot discern a difference firing right then left or left than right, which would accentuate any differences.

JPK

Edited by JPK (04/01/08 02:53 PM)


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beleg2
.375 member


Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: JPK]
      #93451 - 04/01/08 09:20 PM

Thank for the answers.
I know that the correct procedure is reload right barrel ASAP but I like to know what happen if you can not becuase circunstances (I just invented those).
I ask because I have a muzzleloading BR and I do not want to reload because I have to take primer out of the nipple (left barrel) wile reloading R barrel.
I will have to make some more range investigations about how the rifle shots each barrel. Some time ago I try it but barrels cross too much.
Thanks
Martin


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Bill_Cooley
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Reged: 14/12/06
Posts: 197
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: beleg2]
      #93914 - 09/01/08 03:25 PM

Crossing would tend to indicate your velocity is to fast for that bullet weight.
Yes using a muzzleloading double rifle would complicate things.
Bill


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #93943 - 09/01/08 11:45 PM

The real beauty of a muzzleloading double rifle, is the speed with which one can test various loads in regulating the rifle.
: I don't see timing between shots as being very critical, but the rifle should group closely for 3 or 4 shots, when barrel heat might effect regulation.
; Bill - In regards the ML double, would not increasing the charge & therefore the recoil not casue the barrels to shoot apart and thus reduce crossing? Or - is that bassackwards.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: DarylS]
      #93944 - 09/01/08 11:51 PM



Fired heaps of rounds from a double in every configuration
or possible way and I didn't notice the difference and neither
did the herd of animals - I point the gun, fire and they dropped.

I really don't think it makes a damn bit of difference.

When finishing off animals on the ground as I walk around,
I do tend to fire the left barrel and single load which
leaves the right barrel ready if needed in a hurry AND tends to even up the number of shots per barrel.


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: 500Nitro]
      #94017 - 11/01/08 04:42 AM

DarlS,

You wrote:
"Bill - In regards the ML double, would not increasing the charge & therefore the recoil not casue the barrels to shoot apart and thus reduce crossing? Or - is that bassackwards."

It is both. If the rifle is VERY underloaded compared to what it was regulated with it will tend to shoot low and cross. Not enough recoil to get the barrels moving in their arch, as you mention.

But the rifle will cross, and tend to shoot low, if the load is too fast also. Too much speed, causing the bullets to exit the barrels before the rifle has had time to recoil and get the respective barrel moving in it arch.

For example, shooting my 458wm double rifle with 500gr 45/70 power loads results in shooting low and barrels crossing. But going too far up in velocity, with the same 500gr bullet weight also results in crossing, and shooting low too.

JPK


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: beleg2]
      #94032 - 11/01/08 12:33 PM

Quote:

Hi,
I have a question for those with experience with double rifles:
Doubles are regulated to shot both barrels in less than 10 seconds. So, what happens if you shot right barrel and then, before reloading you have to shot left barrel, say 30 seconds later?
You can imagine the picture you like, buffalo, lion, deer, tec. You hit hard but the prey hide behind a tree, you walk looking for it and then when you are just to reload right barrel lion charge, deer run, etc.
Do you try cold left barrel group?
Food for your thoughts
Thanks
Martin





The black art otherwise known as “double rifle regulation” is not a reference associated with hunting, rather the term is used to define “point of impact” when a double rifle is being shot by its maker prior to completion for accuracy. Double rifles are indeed very special creatures, and require regulation for proper barrel convergence in relation to point of impact. It is true that a time method is used for the second shot upon regulating the given specimen. However, once this is done its done, unless you alter the load. So a second shot with a cold tube, should have basically the same point of impact as a hot tube in theory. Remember shots are usually taken within 10 to 30 paces with these guns. Regulation is done at 50 meters at the factory on anything over 375.

While the bullet is traveling down the right barrel (of a side-by-side double rifle) the rifle will be pushed up and to the right, throwing the bullet up and to the right when it exits the muzzle. While the bullet is traveling down the left barrel, the rifle will be pushed up and to the left, throwing the bullet up and to the left when it exits the muzzle. To compensate for the movement of a double rifle while bullets are traveling down the barrels, it must be built with the barrels converging towards the muzzle (by a mysterious amount). Because different powder charges, bullet weights, rifle weights, shooter body weights, ambient temperatures, etc., all effect the way a rifle moves under recoil, the only way to balance these factors is by trial and error. This process is called regulation. The goal of regulation is to make the rifle shoot both barrels to a common point of impact at a range appropriate for the calibre. One can proceed generally in either of two ways: adjusting the relative position of the barrels or adjusting the load. If one has a fixed load in mind, the former method must be used. It involves repetitive unsoldering and resoldering the barrels until the required convergence is achieved, then relaying the ribs and finally refinishing the barrels. A simpler method is to vary the load. The longer the bullet spends traveling down the barrel, the greater the force is exerted on the rifle to cause it to move while under recoil. If bullets from the left and right barrels strike the target too far apart at the desired range, and have crossed before they reach the target, the velocity is too great. The bullet weight must therefore be increased or the powder charge decreased. If bullets from the left and right barrels strike the target at the desired range too far apart, but have not crossed before they reach the target, the velocity is too slow. The bullet weight must therefore be decreased or the powder charge increased.

The construction of an effective double rifle is the apogee of the gunmaker's art. If, however, one comes into possession of a double rifle for which the original load is unknown, one can often make it shoot well by adjusting the load to the rifle.


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Bill_Cooley
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Reged: 14/12/06
Posts: 197
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: ]
      #94501 - 17/01/08 01:45 PM

Martin,
I am sorry to take so long getting back to your post. I was distracted (I had a great time) by the Dallas Safari club show this last weekend and have been behind since then.
I think the best thing to do is go back to the range. Take a target that is the same as the one you are shooting at so you can mark where each shot hits in relation to your aiming point. Try to use a standing rest or a set of shooting sticks to help steady your aim. Beshure you don’t rest the rifle agenst anything but your hand, if you do it could change your point of impact.
I agree with what Sinner posted.
Did you get aney load data with your rifle? What make and caliber is it?
Basically if your barrels are shooting high and apart but not crossing the velocity is slow if they are crossing and low they are to fast. You will have to do some experimenting to find the load that shoots best.
I would forget about hot barrel cold barrel and just shoot I dought you will find any difference.

Daryl S,
The regulation is directly tied to barrel time or how long the bullet is in the barrel. The barrels will cross and shoot low when they are to fast. They should shoot high and apart if to slow. This applies when you are close to the right velocity. You can make the barrels cross by being realley slow to.
Bill

Edited by Bill_Cooley (17/01/08 01:46 PM)


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beleg2
.375 member


Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #94553 - 18/01/08 01:26 AM

Thanks for the answers I just want to lern as much as posible about double rifles.
My rifle is a (humble) Pedersoli Kodiak 58”.
My charge: REAL 445grs and 100 grs of FFFg (the only powder I can get)
I try to find a regulating charge many times but, as I find a promising charge, finished my powder supply.
I get funny groups when shooting from a rest so I will shoot from standing position without rest. Even with only elbows on the bench, I have two separate groups, I think I change the way I use the rest.
The same charge, using new powder, cross fire at 50 meters.
This new powder is “lighter”(same volume but less weight), so I have to find a new regulating charge.
If time do not affect point of impact (regulation), it would be much easier to shot each barrel separately with time to aim. Am I wrong?
Please let me know if I do not understand your explanations.
Thanks
Martin


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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: ]
      #94583 - 18/01/08 08:01 AM

Sinner,

The real fun come with "regulating" a 100 year double rifle with modern powder and projectiles. I started off with a Chapius and Merkel and now have three pre-war british doubles thanks to this motley crew: a 450#2, 500/450 and a 35 Winchester. Thankfully the projectiles and powder are extremely consistent and it's a matter of getting the right combination. Most men here will attest to the virtues of Reloader 15 and Varget. Great stuff.

One thing I have found is all three have regulated "best" below the published velocity. That's ok with me because modern projectiles are designed to work well at lower impact velocities.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: bonanza]
      #94765 - 20/01/08 09:26 AM

I just get back from the range very happy.
I use some more of the new powder (95grs) and get both barrels into 4.5 inchs at 50 meters.
The trick is to shot without any rest = 6 shots starting from clean lubed barrels into 4.5".



Some times left barrel is more accurate than right barrel.



So next shooting will be without rest.LOL
Next time I will try each barrel separatelly and let you know.

Thanks
Martin


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: bonanza]
      #94791 - 20/01/08 01:39 PM

It is fun I agree, though sometimes is does get frustrating as hell.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5272
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: ]
      #94807 - 21/01/08 12:04 AM

Quote:

It is fun I agree, though sometimes is does get frustrating as hell.




Now there's a true statement if ever there was one!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: double regulation and real hunting [Re: CptCurl]
      #94813 - 21/01/08 01:35 AM

"Fun" like dropping a glove while on the ski lift.

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